Searching for the socks I never owned

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

You're message made me think alot, thank you.

Is Bonnie the thinker of the thoughts?
No she is not, thoughts materialise randomly, alot of the time generated from the story that is Bonnie, past experiences etc, the labels I have given things/feelings.

The thinker of thoughts that labels experience?
Yes I label all experience, this has come fom the use of language so I assume we all do it without thinking about it.

[bonniewonder]

If you feel an emotion do you decide what to label it or is it a learned label?
It is a leaned label, I guess at some point we must decide for example if it is not an emotion you have felt before, you choose what it is. but for example the raw sensation of anxiety and excitement are very similar so in the past we must have decided which is which.

Does a very young child know any label for a physical feeling or does it just notices a raw sensation?
It just notices the raw sensations its the parents that give a label to the feeling initially. This really made me think as I have a 6 month old son and I can learn alot from him as all his experience is just raw experience, bodily sensations; how wonderful that must be! I notice we are already giving him labels for sensations, your sad, you have a bad stomach, youre excited but in fact we have no idea as only he has the raw sensation.

Does it know what a certain feeling in the belly is called? Or does it learn with time that this feelings can be called fear or belly ache or constipation?
No they have no idea, in time they tell us they have pain or something and then we say 'this is what you have giving it the label'

So does an ‘emotion’ arise or is there a raw sensation, which is labeled in the blink of an eye with a thought one notices?
Can a label be felt?
So what is really felt?
There is always raw sensation first but I think the key there is 'in a blink of an eye' its so quick and so learned that I cannot tell the difference, and in that split second you re then owning the emotion, raw sensation, followed by labelling, followed by ownership 'I am sad'

It seems to be a case of stripping ourselves of all the labels and going back the basics of the way we experience raw sensation as a child, but can we unlearn what we have learnt?
Also if this is the case, is there any way of teaching it from a young age? Or does it need the intllectual awareness to understand it?

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

Good work!

Does that what is described become the label?

It seems to be a case of stripping ourselves of all the labels and going back the basics of the way we experience raw sensation as a child, but can we unlearn what we have learnt?

To become child like is fine and often happens but do we have to strip ourselves of all the labels?
Thoughts will always be there and try imagine for a moment how you would communicate without labels? Could be interesting, or? ;-)

Does that what is described become the label?
Does the label has any influence on what is?
You are not the thinker of your thoughts, right? Or can you influence in any way what you think?
Calling yourself a thinker does this change this?
Does any label change what is?

There is nothing wrong with either thoughts (which are noticed in AE) or the content of thought (which can’t be found in AE). No need to change anything but it is good to really know the answers to the questions above.

Also if this is the case, is there any way of teaching it from a young age? Or does it need the intllectual awareness to understand it?

For children this is so much easier to grasp all this than for grown ups. Try when you yourself are clear about this, you will be amazed.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Thanks for your message, it is good to know that this is all easier for younger children.


Does that what is described become the label?
No, it does not become the label, the label is just a means of making communication easier.

Does the label has any influence on what is?
No, It has no influence at all.

You are not the thinker of your thoughts, right? Or can you influence in any way what you think?
This is more complicated. Thoughts are arising based on 'my story' but I do not own them, they do not define me in anyway (although easier in theory rather than practise. Yes I can influence what I think, I can say think of a blue bear and this imagine will come into my head, I can think a sad thought or recall a happy memory. I think when you can decide what to think about its difficult to not think that you are in control of it all.

Calling yourself a thinker does this change this?
It doesnt change what is but changes your perception on your ability to control. thinker = director
Does any label change what is?
No, it doesnt change anything.

I think what I struggle with is, there are so many factors at play. For example, Somebody lies to me. I have the raw sensation, maybe in my chest or stomach, then thought comes into play, why are they lying to me? How can they do this? This then enhances the feeling of discomfort and I attach an emotion to it. I'm angry.
So from a position of no self, how would this scenario play out?
I acknowledge that the only thing that is real is the raw sensation, there is no me to be lied to? But how do human relationships continue in this way.

Sorry for my lack of understanding, I feel I m repeating myself ans going round in circles.

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

Sorry for my lack of understanding, I feel I m repeating myself ans going round in circles.

This is what a thought is about, right, a content of a thought?
Does the content of a thought depict what is or is it an interpretation?
And how credible are these interpretations?

No, it does not become the label, the label is just a means of making communication easier.

Yes, exactly. Without words/labels communication would be lots of fun but hard work.

Does the label has any influence on what is?
No, It has no influence at all.

Good.

This is more complicated. Thoughts are arising based on 'my story' but I do not own them, they do not define me in anyway (although easier in theory rather than practise. Yes I can influence what I think, I can say think of a blue bear and this imagine will come into my head, I can think a sad thought or recall a happy memory. I think when you can decide what to think about its difficult to not think that you are in control of it all.

Where can the I be found who thinks of a blue bear? Is there a kind of mechanism or location? Where exactly can it be found and how does it work?
How does this deciding what to think work?

Can you hold onto a thought or does it vanish early or later?
Can you only think nice and beautiful thoughts?

Quick! Say a number between one and ten!







Did you choose it?

So from a position of no self, how would this scenario play out?

There is a self played in the Film About Bonnie, but what there is most certainly not is a separate self which is separate from everything else. There is no separation at ALL! From anything!

Stay with thoughts and observe how they come and go and look for the thinker.
Is there a need of one?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Just a quick question, I think it is becoming a little clearer. The example of the blue bear: is this just a thought generating more thought? With 'me' having no control over the initial thought.
Also i wasnt clear about the example to think of a number. My reply to that is always 3. Is it to demonstrate that even a sudden impulsive question like that is not decided?

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

Don't overthink.

Just check again and again. Is Bonnie the thinker of her thoughts?

Just a quick question, I think it is becoming a little clearer. The example of the blue bear: is this just a thought generating more thought? With 'me' having no control over the initial thought.

Can thoughts do anything or is there just a thought 'saying' so?

Also i wasnt clear about the example to think of a number. My reply to that is always 3. Is it to demonstrate that even a sudden impulsive question like that is not decided?

Did you decide on the number or not?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

A thought of a number came into my head, I did/ thought nothing😀

[Jadzia]

Amazing, isn't it?

Now have a look at the other questions and ponder them.

I am looking forward to what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Sorry for my late reply, it was my first week back after maternity leave, so its been hectic but at the sale time very useful for exploring where my thoughts come from.

Yes a thought is the content of a thought, it definitely does not depict what is, it is just an interpretation, and how credible is it?..... Not very. I feel the interpretation of the thought it purely based on the story of Bonnie, and what has passed before. what I do wonder though is why so much content of thoughts are negative?

Where can the I be located? I have concentrated on this one and it really cannot be found, I have always been lead to believe the I is maybe something like a soul but if you strip everything away there is still nothing, its just a thought that it exists which I think can be a comfort if someone dies, 'their soul lives on' but in reality if you search for this there is nothing.

Deciding as in making a choice I find a bit more complex, I struggle with who makes the decision, if you have to choose between A and B. There is no me but something occurs whereby a decision is made unless the choice would already happen anyway, a bit like destiny maybe?

This was a great thing you said to me as it was a bit of a light bulb moment, can we only think beautiful thougths? Of course we cant, so why the hell do I think I have any control over my thoughts, If I cant decide what type of thoughts I have it means I have no control over any of them, which really means I have no control over anything.
Thoughts come and go some stay around for longer when we attach some kind of meaning to them and play them out as if we can control the outcome.

I am starting to see there is no thinker and I have less attachments to my thoughts when they do arise, before I would play with them and mull them over but now I can sometimes laugh at the ridiculousness of them. Not all the time thought but I feel there has been some difference.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

What a beautiful read, Bonnie.

Yes a thought is the content of a thought, it definitely does not depict what is, it is just an interpretation, and how credible is it?..... Not very. I feel the interpretation of the thought it purely based on the story of Bonnie, and what has passed before. what I do wonder though is why so much content of thoughts are negative?

Right, the interpretation is based on the story of Bonnie. On that what is seemingly liked or disliked, favoured or avoided. Thought seem to be “habitual creatures”, observe how they tell about negative or positive. When does the one thoughts happen when the others?
Hm, isn’t it another thought which ‘tells’ about a thought being negative?

Where can the I be located? I have concentrated on this one and it really cannot be found, I have always been lead to believe the I is maybe something like a soul but if you strip everything away there is still nothing, its just a thought that it exists which I think can be a comfort if someone dies, 'their soul lives on' but in reality if you search for this there is nothing.

Yes, when looking the only reference to an I is in thoughts, it can’t be found anywhere else.

This was a great thing you said to me as it was a bit of a light bulb moment, can we only think beautiful thougths? Of course we cant, so why the hell do I think I have any control over my thoughts, If I cant decide what type of thoughts I have it means I have no control over any of them, which really means I have no control over anything.
Well it stands to reason if you can’t choose a thought, or really say where they come from or go to that this is something the I doesn’t control.

So would it fit for you to say thoughts happen, simply this?

I am starting to see there is no thinker and I have less attachments to my thoughts when they do arise, before I would play with them and mull them over but now I can sometimes laugh at the ridiculousness of them. Not all the time thought but I feel there has been some difference.

This feels good, right? Thoughts are there, they are part of what is too, they do have their merits, but to believe each word of them, well, that is no good.
And yes, observing thoughts can really be funny.

Deciding as in making a choice I find a bit more complex, I struggle with who makes the decision, if you have to choose between A and B. There is no me but something occurs whereby a decision is made unless the choice would already happen anyway, a bit like destiny maybe?

Ok, decision happens and it is not this separate I who does them.
Life life-ing?

Destiny. Well this is a concept=lots of thoughts= lots of words.
When looking could you find a mechanism or a way in which destiny could happen?

Go on observing.
Have a close look at decisions, too. When does the thought claiming to have made a decision appear, before, during or after a decision's been made?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

I tried to observe when my thoughts tell about negative and positive and I found this difficult to identify. I noticed that alot of my thoughts are old and habitual and I could see I have had them 100's of times before.
My thoughts have been telling me that I have slipped back into old habits and the progress I felt I made has gone!

Yes I would say that thoughts just happen, but I do think I am struggling still with emotions because the thoughts seem so real and justified, then it seems they are happening but for a reason because something has triggered them.

Life living: but why does it feel so much like we are controlling the decision? I looked at this and when the thought appears that we have made the decision; in a quick spare of the moment situation there seems to be no thought just AE for example the other day I could see my son wasabout to fall off the sofa, there was no decision just action, seeing, body moving. With other decisions I wasnt sure, sometimes it seemed the decision was first and others when I tested it maybe was somewhere in between, i could start the action before the thought.

I also had the feeling this week that I was just going through the motions. I had dinner with a student and you relay the story of Bonnie and it seemed so false and meaningless. I know this story has to continue but it was even as if I was speaking about someone else as i had no attachment to the story I was telling.

Thanks,
Bonnie

[Jadzia]

I noticed that alot of my thoughts are old and habitual and I could see I have had them 100's of times before.

Isn’t that interesting, this fact that thoughts are very often old, and repeat themselves over and over again?

My thoughts have been telling me that I have slipped back into old habits and the progress I felt I made has gone!

To whom exactly is this told?

Yes I would say that thoughts just happen, but I do think I am struggling still with emotions because the thoughts seem so real and justified, then it seems they are happening but for a reason because something has triggered them.

What do you mean by “struggling with emotions”? Can you give an example?

I also had the feeling this week that I was just going through the motions. I had dinner with a student and you relay the story of Bonnie and it seemed so false and meaningless. I know this story has to continue but it was even as if I was speaking about someone else as i had no attachment to the story I was telling.

No attachment is fine, no attachment to the thoughts which tell the story of a separate self called Bonnie, you still can respect, love and enjoy the story of Bonnie. Like all other stories it most certainly is an intersting one. :-)

Let’s have a closer look at decisions. This is a tricky thing because the belief in us being the decider and chooser is pretty strong.
Yes, some actions are so quick even thought isn’t quick enough to add something to the experience.

Here is a little experiment:
Go to the kitchen and choose two different things you would like to eat.
Look at them, and think about why you would it this one or the other one.

Count slowly to five. On the count of five grab one of them.

When you thought about the different food, did you choose the qualities that turned up or did they turn up on their own?

When you counted the thoughts about the food slipped to the background and the counting was in front - did you choose that or did it just happen?

When you picked one of the foods, could you find anyone who decided what to eat?

Report what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,
Thank you for getting back to me so quickly.
With the emotion, i will use anger as an example, so i feel the raw sensation and the brain labels it anger and i just acknowledge and stay with the actual experience but I think the raw sensation can be strong which then feeds the thoughts and suddenly and quickly it escalates and you are full of internal dialogue.

I will try the experiment in the morning😀

Thanks

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

With the emotion, i will use anger as an example, so i feel the raw sensation and the brain labels it anger and i just acknowledge and stay with the actual experience but I think the raw sensation can be strong which then feeds the thoughts and suddenly and quickly it escalates and you are full of internal dialogue.

There is a raw sensation felt, it is labeled, and what else happens?
There will be more thoughts about the sensation, right?
Like “This is strong”, “This is so strong that it feeds thoughts” or “This escalates now and all the thoughts are happening because of the sensation”

Does the sensation know anything about the label? Does it become the label?

Can it be known, by DE (direct experience) that there is a connection between sensation and thought? Is there a mechanism which links them? Can you see, hear, it at work?

Check something out: if you focus on thoughts they seem to become more, don’t they? And ‘stronger’. There is no sensation needed for it.
Not to fall for internal dialogue takes a bit of practice though.

Love,
Jadzia