The Gate

Hi,

So when you say,

most thoughts seem to be running commentary, with lots of concerns for the future.

can you say what form these thoughts take? Are they pictures (images/movies) or words? If they are words, how are the words experienced? Are they spoken or are there words appearing as images? Do you identify yourself as the person speaking or the person who is being spoken to?

When these thoughts take place is it possible to move back into direct experience and dis-identify from the thought story content and simply experience the thought as words and pictures that have no "power" over you?

love

amrita

Hi Amrita,

Thanks for your response!

can you say what form these thoughts take? Are they pictures (images/movies) or words? If they are words, how are the words experienced? Are they spoken or are there words appearing as images? Do you identify yourself as the person speaking or the person who is being spoken to?

The thoughts that I was specifically referring to, the commentary and seemingly endless streams of thoughts that are usually worrying about this or that, reminders of all that needs to be done at work, and so on, are generally comprised of words. These words are usually perceived as spoken, not written. It feels as though it is my voice, and I am the one speaking the thoughts "out loud" ... in my head.

When these thoughts take place is it possible to move back into direct experience and dis-identify from the thought story content and simply experience the thought as words and pictures that have no "power" over you?

Yes, it is possible for that to be done, and I have tried doing that in the past as well. That sort of viewing the thoughts as a witness or someone outside the thoughts is not my default mode, but it is a more relaxing and less stressful way of being with those thoughts.

Thank you,
Bayou

Hi Bayou,

Let's look at thought and its relation to what it attempts to describe.

What is more real: an actual apple or thoughts about an apple?

What is more real: direct experience of the senses of the present moment or thoughts about the present moment?

Does the *self* or *I* exist outside of thought? If not, is the "I" a special kind of thought? If, the "I" exists outside of thought, what evidence is there for it in direct experience?

Amrita

Hi Amrita,

Sorry for the delay in my response; there has been a family issue that has made for a much more limited opportunity to find time to be online.

What is more real: an actual apple or thoughts about an apple?

An actual apple is much more real that just a thought about one. I can have thoughts about there being a mountain of gold in my living room, but that doesn't do or mean anything. The thought isn't real.

What is more real: direct experience of the senses of the present moment or thoughts about the present moment?

The direct experience of the senses at the present time is what is real, not thoughts about it.

Does the *self* or *I* exist outside of thought? If not, is the "I" a special kind of thought? If, the "I" exists outside of thought, what evidence is there for it in direct experience?

Personally and what I think (at least, what I would have said with conviction not long ago) that most people would say is that they are this combo of a body and its mind / thought patterns. I see a face in the mirror and think that it's me. There's a sense of being the one pulling the strings to make the body work and making decisions. Going strictly by direct experience, however, seeing a face in the mirror is just a sight like any other. It's just colors. The sense of being a director of the body and its movements is just a sensation and/or thoughts.

Thoughts are needed to label or claim anything, from something being my car to the image in the mirror being my face. For there to be a me, there must be thoughts claiming something about experience. Otherwise, the senses are just reporting in, working on their own.

is the "I" a special kind of thought?

The thought that I am the director, that I am me is a thought like any other. There's no discernible difference between a thought that I decided to order fries with lunch and one noting the color of a dog walking by.


Thanks again!
Bayou

Hi,

From what you write it seems you can find no sense of I or a director in direct experience yet there is still a vague sense that a self exists? Is that right?

When you say,

Thoughts are needed to label or claim anything, from something being my car to the image in the mirror being my face. For there to be a me, there must be thoughts claiming something about experience. Otherwise, the senses are just reporting in, working on their own.

can you say a bit more about how thoughts "claim" anything? Do you mean thoughts that label things? And what do you mean when you say the senses are just reporting in, working on their own?

Love

Amrita

Hello,

From what you write it seems you can find no sense of I or a director in direct experience yet there is still a vague sense that a self exists? Is that right?

Yes, I think that's correct, that there is a vague sense of there being a self. It partially could be also that I have not yet had any kind of feeling of a "realization" of the lack of self, a moment where it is felt to sink in and affect one's regular life through a sense of freedom or whatever it is that happens. If there hasn't been a deeply felt recognition of there not being a self, it seems that there is still a vague sense of there being one. I'm not looking for any bliss or magical moment just a, "wow - I'm not doing any of this" and that's that, just as I can say with 100% conviction that there isn't a Santa Claus putting presents under the tree at Christmas.

Is there supposed to be a "clicking" of it all (or a really noticeable "aha" moment) to signal that this has been digested? Otherwise, is nothing different whatsoever on one side of the gate from the other, making it impossible to discern the passing through?

can you say a bit more about how thoughts "claim" anything? Do you mean thoughts that label things?

Sure thing! Such as the face in the mirror example. If I look into a mirror, there is color on the mirror. My mind has to claim or label it as "my face" and then runs a commentary on how my hair or shirt looks today or a bunch of other thoughts.

Another example was last night when the notification of your last response popped into my email inbox, and there was the thought, "Yes! I love responses!" This is some overlaying of a label, view, opinion, claim, etc. onto a happening in the world - receiving an email.

And what do you mean when you say the senses are just reporting in, working on their own?

By this, I just meant how we previously talked about how the senses are just happening without there being a discernable self making them work. We talked about how with sight, for example, there is seeing, but there's no seen self or observer doing the seeing - it's just happening and never turns off, even with eyes closed.

Thanks again,
Bayou

Hi.

in response to this question,

Is there supposed to be a "clicking" of it all (or a really noticeable "aha" moment) to signal that this has been digested? Otherwise, is nothing different whatsoever on one side of the gate from the other, making it impossible to discern the passing through?

I can only answer for myself but there was a definite moment when something "shifted" and I realised that I had gated. There was a sense of something falling away and I felt lighter, more expanisve and freer. This has remained with me for 5 years so from my subjective experience I would say yes, there is a definite point when you see clearly. If you are happy to continue we can keep looking at different ways to see through the self -illusion until you clearly, undeniably and incontrovertibly see it for yourself :).

Let's try this exercise

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word 'I' silently, be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound,the thought YOU?”

Is the thought, "I exist" you?


Amrita

Hello,

I can only answer for myself but there was a definite moment when something "shifted" and I realised that I

Thank you very much for that insight into your experience. That makes me feel much better and less uncertain / confused, that I'm somehow just lost and muddling through and don't know when it's "done."

If you are happy to continue we can keep looking at different ways to see through the self -illusion until you clearly, undeniably and incontrovertibly see it for yourself :).

Absolutely, 100% yes! Thanks for sticking with me.

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

No, that word is not me. It's just a generic word that hundreds of millions of other English speakers use to refer to themselves in regular speaking and writing.

Speak the word 'I' silently, be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

There wasn't much in terms of reaction to just the word, "I." If there were, though, sensations do not compose a director of this body and its decisions.

Now say the word aloud. Is that sound YOU?

No, the sound is definitely not me.

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound,the thought YOU?”

No, no combination of any of these ways of communicating "I" is me.

Is the thought, "I exist" you?

I thought through this one (it's funny to say that, given what your question was:) a while. No, no thought, even ones referring to an I or there being a sense of an I (or controller) can be me.

Summarizing where we are at this point, we've gone through the senses and thought without being able to find anything separate from the senses or thoughts (no "seer" found with sight, etc.). We've done experiments showing that thought isn't running all actions. I'm also not the thought of there being a me.

What does this leave, meaning - what is life or this experience, then? I'm aware of all that's going on, from the senses and thoughts to even the felt assumption of being the director of this body and its thoughts. As I mentioned early on, I've read too many books on non-duality, which is probably part of the problem of my confusion. Ruling out there being a director, what does that leave? Is it that there is a real body here, and it is just on autopilot and got confused, thinking that it's pushing the buttons and pulling the levers making it work? Or, is it something more mystical like so many of these books talk about, that what's left is me then being "awareness" or something like that, with there not even being a physical body at all? I know that these questions are getting away from direct experience experiments, but it seems that with a hint, I could focus my looking and stop getting blocked by these questions from the gate.

Thanks again :)
Bayou

Hey aplogies for delay, I got caught up in life (family, friends, socialising)

I'm glad you wish to continue this conversation.

In relation to this issue,

What does this leave, meaning - what is life or this experience, then? I'm aware of all that's going on, from the senses and thoughts to even the felt assumption of being the director of this body and its thoughts. As I mentioned early on, I've read too many books on non-duality, which is probably part of the problem of my confusion. Ruling out there being a director, what does that leave? Is it that there is a real body here, and it is just on autopilot and got confused, thinking that it's pushing the buttons and pulling the levers making it work?

Is it possible to be open to the mystery of it all? How about letting go the need to understand (put things into thought) what life is or what we are and paying full attention to present experience. In that experience of colour/images sensations sounds is there any sense of a self or boundary or is there just open-ended experience? Isn't the nature of experience beyond any symbolic representations of it?

Love

amrita

Hi Amrita!

I got caught up in life (family, friends, socialising)

Not a problem at all; I had an absolutely crazy busy weekend as well.

Is it possible to be open to the mystery of it all? How about letting go the need to understand (put things into thought) what life is or what we are and paying full attention to present experience. In that experience of colour/images sensations sounds is there any sense of a self or boundary or is there just open-ended experience? Isn't the nature of experience beyond any symbolic representations of it?

Pushing down the curiosity and drive to understand, I can be open to the mystery - sure. From those too many books, I had always assumed that one had to "get it" for it to click and become one's experience. If that's not true, I'm more than happy on dropping the desire to understand it now. That desire may have to wane away for a little, as it was a bit strong there.

Without thought, you are right in that experience is open-ended and just out there doing its thing. WIthout labeling everything, there can't be any symbolic representations of anything. Just on direct experience, the symble of the "$" sign is just a squiggle; with thought, it stands for a currency and all that represents.


Something that popped to mind after reading through another person's thread after my last message to you, something that I tweaked slightly and have had it sticking with me from time to time each day since is, "is there a director of the thoughts or just a director in the thoughts?" For all my complaining about feeling like I'm doing everything or anything, without a thought of that, there isn't a director at all. No thought, no director. Thought? Then director.

Thank you; talk to you soon!
Bayou

Hi,

Let's try this exercise,

If you rub your hands together and look, are "you" rubbing your hands or are they just moving? Are you the "observer" of your hands rubbing together? If you pay attention to the experience can you find an observer seperate from what is being observed?

Try this exercise out thoughout your day, whilst brushing your teeth, making a cup of tea, typing on a keyboard etc

Love

Amrita x

Hi Amrita,

If you rub your hands together and look, are "you" rubbing your hands or are they just moving?

When I first started thinking through this question, I thought it would be straightforward, but then I realized, before I could address the question, first, I would have to first grasp a different question. That other one is, "How would I know?" How would I know if it was me rubbing the hands and in control of them in that movement. Really, the only indications on whether or not I was the one moving the hands would only come down to perceptions and thought. There are perceptions of the senses related to the hands rubbing and thoughts that I'm in charge of that, but those are the only two avenues to make the call that I'm moving them.

Continuing with it, because I can perceive other people's hands moving, just perceiving moving hands through senses isn't a way to make a stand on if I'm the mover. One qualification on this would be the sense of touch, which would be one that would really only apply with my hands, not someone 10 feet away rubbing their hands. Other than that sense of touch, it really comes down to thought as being the indication of whether or not I'm moving them.

Are you the "observer" of your hands rubbing together? If you pay attention to the experience can you find an observer seperate from what is being observed?

My initial reaction to trying this one out is that yes, I'm seeing my hands moving "out there" in space a foot or so from my eyes. I'm not my hands, and I'm watching them, making me their observer. The next and related question, though, that you added on if a separate observer can be found makes a difference. Just as we already talked about, in sight, there is no separate seer to be found, just as there is no separate hearer in sound and so on.

I'm not entirely sure the full conclusion to draw from this, though. Hands are moving, but via sight, no separate seer is found. The hands are there moving, though.


Thank you!
Bayou

Hi,

It's good to sit with the uncertainty of not knowing as this process involves letting go of beliefs rather than taking new ones. In that way, I guess you would say this is a *destructive* process rather than a creative or additive one if that makes any kind of sense.

Let's change tack with this inquiry.

Do you make anything happen? if so, what do you cause to happen? Can you give an example of something you made happen?

Love

Amrita

Hello!!!

I guess you would say this is a *destructive* process rather than a creative or additive one if that makes any kind of sense.

A destructive process is fine with me. Let's break down the misconceptions that are there and get to the truth :)

Do you make anything happen? if so, what do you cause to happen? Can you give an example of something you made happen?

There is a default assumption that I make everything happen. Well, the assumption is only that I make all actions involving "voluntary" muscles - moving an arm but not beating my heart. By default also, there's the assumption that I also am responsible for my own thoughts. From our discussion, though, I think that the thought assumption is pretty dead; it's obvious that I'm not back there someplace writing thoughts - I'm just witnessing them.

So, an example of something that feels like I'm deciding or making happen would be getting up to get something to eat or drink. Without "my effort," I would just stay sitting on the couch, but I decide and then get up, walk to the kitchen, pick what to eat or drink, get it ready, and so on.

I type the above to answer your question but then immediately start dissecting it. "What is the me making this happen?" "Where is this me?" "In direct experience, how do I know that I'm doing any of those things - deciding to go eat, walking, etc.?" To answer these kinds of questions, one can only vaguely answer, "I don't know - it just seems like it," which is obviously not a very solid position or place to be. In your experience, does everything just happen and you assume no ownership of any actions or thoughts? It seems like living from that place of just going with the flow of life is where this would all lead.

Thank you again for taking the time to help me so much.
Bayou

Hey,

When you are reading this are "you" making the reading happen or are the words simply appearing in awareness? Is there a seperate observer to what is being observed?

Likewise, when you type your reply: is there a self that chooses the words or do the words appear? Is there a "self" that is doign the typing or does typing simply occur? Can you locate any action that you initiate or does the action simply happen and there are lots of thoughts which try to claim ownership of that particular action?


Love

Amrita