So close... yet so far?

[forgetmenot]

Hi Gray,

Before we continue on. Do you have any questions in regards to what we have explored so far?

Love, Kay

[Gray]

Hello Kay,

So far so good!
It's all been quite clear and very productive. I must say a big, big thank you for the very generous time and effort you have given me so far. I truly appreciate it.

Best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Hi Gray,

So far so good!
It's all been quite clear and very productive. I must say a big, big thank you for the very generous time and effort you have given me so far. I truly appreciate it.

Great to hear and you are most welcome. The appreciation goes both ways :)

Moving onto to look at time. There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Love, Kay

[Gray]

Hello Kay,

This was actually another clear insight I received during meditation some time ago. I understood that everything that has ever happened and will ever happen is in this ‘now’ that is being experienced.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

Now does not move linearly, forward, or along some imagined line of time.
No experience comes ‘before’ or ‘after’ another; experiences simply arise and pass away in this same ‘now’ as all others do.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Now does not move.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No!

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Infinitely?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

Now is always now. No start, no end.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

Only in thought.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

Thoughts.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Time is only a concept that exists in thought.

Best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Hello Gray,

This was actually another clear insight I received during meditation some time ago. I understood that everything that has ever happened and will ever happen is in this ‘now’ that is being experienced.

Great. So does anything actually change? Look at this carefully and look at it with actual experience and not thought.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

Now does not move linearly, forward, or along some imagined line of time.
No experience comes ‘before’ or ‘after’ another; experiences simply arise and pass away in this same ‘now’ as all others do.

What exactly is it that is arising and passing away in this same ‘now’? Arising and passing what exactly? For something to arise and pass points to time, points to something coming and going. What is it that is coming and going?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Infinitely?

What does ‘here and now’ actually point to? Does it point to a location and time or does it point to experience (THIS) that is always here now and is the ‘herenow’?


love, Kay

[Gray]

Hello Kay,

Great. So does anything actually change? Look at this carefully and look at it with actual experience and not thought.

No! ‘Change’ is just a label given by thought.

What exactly is it that is arising and passing away in this same ‘now’? Arising and passing what exactly? For something to arise and pass points to time, points to something coming and going. What is it that is coming and going?

Hmm. Yes, true! That expression points to time… nothing actually ‘comes and goes’ from somewhere to anywhere, so to speak.

What does ‘here and now’ actually point to? Does it point to a location and time or does it point to experience (THIS) that is always here now and is the ‘herenow’?

This experience that is always here and now.

Best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Hi Gray,

I would like to give you the following questions to see if there is anything that needs further investigation, or if there is something that is not quite clear. Can you please answer the questions with some detail, and answer what's true for you, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love, Kay

[Gray]

Hello Kay,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There isn’t. There is no separate entity / thing anywhere in experience. It is a redundant concept. There never was, no… could not have been.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self was formed from the belief in the stories and concepts cultural and social conditioning imposed on me since ‘birth’; that I am a unique, separate individual defined by particular characteristics—name, age, nationality, race, sex, etc. etc.—who exists in an external objective world of external things, playing a particular role / character in the supposedly finite experience of life.

3) How does it feel to see this?

It’s OK… this was obviously the only way it could have ever been.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

Some clearer, deeper experiential understanding and seeing.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I cannot I that I have been pushed over. There is no sense that anything has changed in my perception.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

They are just concepts and labels. To describe them would just be an intellectual exercise, which seems pointless and irrelevant to experience.

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

Nothing ‘makes’ things happen.

c) What are you responsible for?

Nothing, ultimately. I don’t feel any sense of responsibility, but not in the nihilistic sense that nothing or no one else matters, or that whatever I do or say is inconsequential. The concept itself seems irrelevant?

d) Give examples from experience.

I can’t find any.

6) Anything to add?

There are feelings of unease, tension, confusion and frustration at not yet being clear about whether I have seen through the illusion fully. Doubt is high, Kay… questioning whether my answers to you have been 100% honest seeing, or just really effective intellectualising (years of academia conditioned me well). :(

[Gray]

Hello again, Kay,

I will be travelling for a few days, and won't be able to respond until Friday, probably. Meanwhile, I will reflect on what we have worked through over the past 10 days.

I will be in touch again as soon as I am able.

All the best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Hello Gray,

Now this was an honest post and I loved reading it. Now we might actually get somewhere with this exploration if you are willing to put aside everything you think you know and actually LOOK. Throughout our exploration there has been no feelings in your answers…they were very cut and dried ie intellectual. It was like a class lesson– the goal being to get to the end of it to see if you had passed. This told me you weren’t really LOOKING. However, it was something you needed to see and tell me. You’re process of LOOKING isn’t working, so how about you start to try another way?

Looking is a nice simple thing - there is no need to over-complicate it.

Just look now...a thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

Sound can be found, but can a hearer of sounds be found?
Can an “I” be found in sound itself?

Colour can be found, but can a see-er of colour be found?
Can an “I” be found in colour itself?

Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?

Smell can be found, but can a smeller of smell be found?
Can an “I” be found in smell itself?

Taste can be found, but can a taster of taste be found?
Can an “I” be found in taste itself?

Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?
It's as simple as that. Just look and see what is actually present - and what is only imaginary.

3) How does it feel to see this?

It’s OK… this was obviously the only way it could have ever been.

This is not an answer on how it feels to see this. It is an observation of how it seemingly looks. There is a difference! When having the realisation that there is no separate self, there is a subtle shift and it does feel different and I can see if you have had a shift or not simply from what you write and how you write it.

4 ) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I cannot I that I have been pushed over. There is no sense that anything has changed in my perception.

This does not surprise me as you have not been LOOKING. Hence the cut and dried answers. When actually LOOKING and not using thought as a means to answer, there is a shift in perception as the actual LOOKING is the key and not intellectually knowing of the answers. Shifting from thinking to looking can be frustrating and require some practice. Thoughts are the "wrong tool" to do this inquiry. This is about noticing what can be found in your immediate experience, noticing what's going on here now and describing what can be found.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

They are just concepts and labels. To describe them would just be an intellectual exercise, which seems pointless and irrelevant to experience.

Complete misunderstanding of this question. The question was not asking you to define what decision, intention, free will etc are. But to describe them from actual experience. Again…you're only looking at questions from an intellectual point of view.

d) Give examples from experience.

I can’t find any.

Really?

6) Anything to add?

There are feelings of unease, tension, confusion and frustration at not yet being clear about whether I have seen through the illusion fully. Doubt is high, Kay… questioning whether my answers to you have been 100% honest seeing, or just really effective intellectualising (years of academia conditioned me well). :(

Finally some honesty and some feelings. Now we might actually get some where. Yes, effective intellectualising comes about because you’re not LOOKING. If you reconnect after your days away, we can start to look at these feelings. To me this is wonderful.

I will be travelling for a few days, and won't be able to respond until Friday, probably. Meanwhile, I will reflect on what we have worked through over the past 10 days.

Thank you for letting me know. I was going to ask you to reread your thread and redo all the exercises and to really do them as instructed, and to do them several times until you actually saw what was being pointed at, instead of relying on what you think you already know.

Knowing about something is thought while the knowing AS (the appearance) is direct/actual. You always know exactly 'what is' (ie AE) by being directly aware of what is.

Love, Kay

[Gray]

Hello Kay,

Wow! Yes. You are absolutely correct in your assessment. Thank you for pointing all of this this out so clearly.

I'm looking forward to continuing this exploration with you on Friday.

Best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Excellent...I look forward to continuing with you :)

K

[Gray]

Hello Kay,

Just arrived back home... ready to continue.

Best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Hi Gray,

What I would like you to do is to reread your thread and do ALL the exercises again. This time, I want you to actually LOOK at what the exercises are pointing to, not just write the answers based on previous knowledge. I can't stress how important it is to actually look...as it is the looking that brings the realisation, not the knowledge. If you are not sure how to look at what is being pointed at...please let me know and we can look at it together, so that you know how to look. A reminder of what LOOKING is:-

‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. Actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, LOOKING’ is just plain looking at actual experience (AE) in the current moment. It is no different to looking for your car keys when you think you have misplaced them. But instead of looking for car keys, you are looking at AE - the raw experience MINUS the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.

Simply asking "who am I" is not the inquiry here at LU. It is actually looking to see if what is being pointed to can be found in AE. So looking with AE is the key. Take for example the apple exercise at the beginning of thread. Can an apple actually be found in colour, taste, smell, sensation, sound or thought? If not, is an apple actually known or only thought about an apple. That very exercise is showing you how to LOOK.
I also want you to become aware of feelings that arise, be it frustration, anger, boredom, resistance, joy etc, and to let me know. This exploration will arouse emotions, and if none are aroused...then there is something going on and I want to know about that as well.

Let me know Once you have completed rereading and redoing the exercises, let me know what you noticed, what appeared, what was seen etc. If you do not clearly see what is being pointed at, then I want you to let me know, so I can give you another pointer before moving on to the next exercise.

Love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

The following shows how to look...it is an add-on to the apple exercise. It might be a good idea to start here.

If you have an ‘apple’ or any other piece of fruit or even a piece of cheese or chocolate will do….go get it and then place it in front of you on the table.

Now LOOK carefully.

1. The image of the ‘apple’ is the actual experience of colour and NOT the AE of an apple. The shape referred to as ‘apple’ is just different shades and patterns of colour. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the colour.

Does the colour itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply AE of colour?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that the colour appearing is that of an ‘apple’?

2. Now, pick up the ‘apple’ and close the eyes. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and of ‘hands’ and just focus on the sensation.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is an apple, and that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply AE of sensation?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sensation has anything to do with an ‘apple’?

3. Now, take a bite of the ‘apple’. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the taste.

Does taste itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simply AE of taste?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the taste of an ‘apple’?

4. Now, have a smell of the ‘apple’. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the smell.

Does smell itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of smell?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the smell of an ‘apple’?

5. Now, listen to the sound of the ‘crunch of an apple’. Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear of and about the ‘apple’ and just focus on the sound.

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of sound?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sound is that of an ‘apple’?

6. So now look at the label ‘apple and the thought “I am looking at, and eating an apple”.

Does the label itself or the thought itself know anything about an ‘apple’? Or are they just simply AE of label/thought?

Love, Kay