I want to wake up

[andersonx]

hi bill, so please read the two posts above first, as I keep coming back to this. Sorry to completely spam the post before you get a chance to reply ;-)

So this is becoming clearer and clearer to me, each time I go into meditation, or listen to a good spiritual teacher like adyashanti.

These are my expectations of enlightenment:

Totally, irrevocably, life-changing fireworks type event
Complete, permanent shift in identity, where I never again feel I'm a limited individual again
End of suffering perhaps?
Merging of consciousness: I.e. say I look at a computer, there's no telling whether I'm the computer or the eyes looking at the computer - i.e. no sense at all exists in me of separation from what I perceive.
Life improves permanently

This is the simple truth that "I" am perceiving:

There is no separate perceiver called I, who is perceiving my perceptions. Me / my / I is more like a hypnosis of language, it has no ground in reality.

There's also something to add to that:

Once you wake up from identification with thoughts, you find freedom.

I feel as long as I'm identifying with and attached to these "thoughts about what enlightenment is and should be" I remain trapped. There are moments when I see that these thoughts are about enlightenment are just that: thoughts. Then there are moments when I do not.

I can see this simple truth.

[Bill]

These are my expectations of enlightenment:

Totally, irrevocably, life-changing fireworks type event

Really? a big bang type event.
You may be disappointed!
You may not even notice it.
In fact the shift is already taking place for you, I can tell from your writing.
Can you feel it?

Complete, permanent shift in identity, where I never again feel I'm a limited individual again

Sorry to disappoint you on this one too. Doubt seriously this will happen.

End of suffering perhaps?

Nope, suffering will still take place.
I can vouch for it.

Merging of consciousness: I.e. say I look at a computer, there's no telling whether I'm the computer or the eyes looking at the computer - i.e. no sense at all exists in me of separation from what I perceive.

Nope. You'll more than likely just see a computer.

Life improves permanently

No on this one too.
This is not a life improvement program.
It will probably be different, but problems will still be there.


I'm glad you brought these up.
You didn't list anything like this originally, so if this is what is really going on
this is good to know.


One thing that concerns me a little, is that you're trying to 'see' this during your meditation
and are treating it like a different 'state'.
I have nothing against meditation, but just do your normal thing with the meditation.
and don't use it to see this.
We want to LOOK for this in normal everyday consciousness.
Just plain old normal, like when you're reading these words.
Like right here and now normal.
Awake, aware.

Its not a state, or a condition.
Its simply seeing the illusion of the I.
That it is not real. That it can't be found in reality.
Check it out....When you look out of your own eyes, no I can be found.
Its only a thought. Created by the mind.
It is so much in front of our noses, we can't see it easily.
But it is there to be seen.

This is the simple truth that "I" am perceiving:

There is no separate perceiver called I, who is perceiving my perceptions. Me / my / I is more like a hypnosis of language, it has no ground in reality.

Beautiful!

There's also something to add to that:
Once you wake up from identification with thoughts, you find freedom.

once you see that I is an illusion, there is freedom

I feel as long as I'm identifying with and attached to these "thoughts about what enlightenment is and should be" I remain trapped. There are moments when I see that these thoughts are about enlightenment are just that: thoughts. Then there are moments when I do not.
I can see this simple truth.

Good. I think I've addressed those above. Good you see this as a trap. It is.
Let go of all these expectations.
You don't need any of them.
No expectations would be perfect.

I'm going to ask this again,
Can you directly address this question from this afternoon:

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

[andersonx]

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, and no.

There is simply a series of thoughts, sensations and perceptions with no discernible I or me, except in the form of a mental label that arises in thought. This thought applies the label of me to a series of memories, images, emotions and perceptions. Beyond this thought of a me, and thoughts about a me, this me has no foundation in reality, whatsoever. It's glaringly obvious.

One thing that concerns me a little, is that you're trying to 'see' this during your meditation
and are treating it like a different 'state'.
I have nothing against meditation, but just do your normal thing with the meditation.
and don't use it to see this.
We want to LOOK for this in normal everyday consciousness.
Just plain old normal, like when you're reading these words.

I agree - I am looking everyday consciousness as much as in meditation. Meditation just helped to stabilize the clarity of insight, when it was a bit fuzzy.

[Bill]

Excellent work Josh.
This is really coming together for you.

What about this question?

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

[andersonx]

Hi Bill

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The separate self is an idea in the mind that there is a separate I, that this I is responsible for perceiving, and that either it is what it perceives, or it is not what it perceives.

The I claims it is various things that it perceives / identifies with. There is the name thought "Josh" and it says "I am Josh". The perception of a face and body show up in a mirror, and it says "I am this face and body".

You have to look for the I, to recognize its illusory nature. You can find a face and a body called Josh, but where is the I that believes it is them?

When you look in this way, essentially all you find is a thought process, where an idea called "I" comes along and starts saying it is this, and it is not that.

The I is simply a thought, a thought which believes it perceives, and believes it either is or is not what it perceives. But there is no I that is perceiving, there are only perceptions, and there is no I to either be or not be those perceptions, only a thought which is essentially a lie. When we see this I thought, we see it is 2-dimensional and lifeless, just a thought, no I.

I believe it starts in childhood, as the lie is absorbed through language and naming etc from others.

[Bill]

Josh - You are very clear.

3 more questions for you.
Be as detailed as you want with these.


How does it feel to see this?

How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion?

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

[andersonx]

How does it feel to see this?

It feels sobering. I've experienced and overcome drug and alcohol problems, in the not too distant past, and it's like suddenly looking at your glass of wine, your bag of cocaine, or your needle of heroin, and in a sudden logical realization thinking: why on earth would I want to do that? It's not good for me. Then calmly putting down the intoxicant, and walking away.

A sense of clarity and a sense of detachment. Via Eckhart Tolle mainly, there's been a learning which has occurred over time not to believe and identify with thoughts and emotions that arise in the body/mind. Particularly not to believe the thoughts in the mind. This has taken that one step further, there's a sense of not buying into the entire life story which exists in the mind. The life story with it's problems, and fears, and worries - there's just no buying into the story, it's seen as an entirely illusory mental process, on a moment to moment level. Temporarily, for a few minutes or so, there may be some buying into the story, then it is noticed, and ahhh.... relaxed. The perceptions of the life story, and the thoughts and emotions around it exist, but they exist in the background of a peaceful detachment.

Liberating. Some lightness of being has come and gone, and come again. Finding subtle shift in behavior, patterns of behavior that were mental and rigid are becoming more intuitive and flexible.

Moment of no-self. There was an experience this morning, when sunlight shined through the window of simply not being there. Just a perception floating in space. Hopefully more of living like this :-)

How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion?

That's tricky. I think people are either at a point of readiness for this stuff or they're not. If they are, and have a genuine interest to pursue this, I'd perhaps use my answer to your question: Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works. But I sense that would probably most people in a state of confusion, the only way to genuinely understand is to see, and to see, the LU dialogue is the best way. Else if they were schooled in advaita, non-duality, they'd have some reference points for understanding and the discussion would be more meaningful.

If they weren't genuinely interested, I wouldn't bother explaining.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I think through dialogue with you and self inquiry I gradually stripped back my "I" to simply being "I am the perceiver of everything perceivable", when I realized that was only a thought, there was a realization that the subject/object relationship between perceiver and perception only exists as a thought. There was a kind of melting into non-duality.

[Bill]

Excellent work Josh.
I am also a friend of Bill W. And there are a few others here too.

Whatever you did on your 'break' was a good thing for you.
Your posts are clear and I don't sense any confusion like there was last week.

This is so very simple.
There's no I, just what's going on, right here and now.
But how we complicate that.
Seeing the I as only being just another thought, among many thoughts is the key.

We have a Facebook group for aftercare that I know you'd enjoy.
And a few other ones for discussion on other things.
Just PM me your Facebook name and I will friend you.
And also if you are interested in guiding at some point in the future, we'd love to have you.

I have put your thread up for confirmation.
The other guides will look at it for clarity and to check if you've 'seen' like I think you have.
This will take a day or two.
They might have a question or two more for me to ask you.

Josh, I'm proud of the work you've done here.
It tickles my heart!

Namaste,
Bill