I am awareness

[gondwana]

I assume there will always be certain beliefs appearing, but they're very different from the direct understanding of reality. It takes place somewhere else.

Yes! Exactly.

The only difference is that now, when these beliefs come up, they are seen as just a belief (a thought) -- untrue. They can be quickly dispelled this way. The more often this is done, the more automatic/natural it becomes. This an ongoing task for after we are done here.

"Mind", or "thoughts" if you prefer, can never be awakened, can it? I will always be limited to concepts, because that's how that part of ourselves functions.

Exactly! Thought cannot know that which exists prior to/outside of thought arising. It is not possible.
This is why we say "the gateless gate" -- once you arrive, it is seen that there actually never WAS any possibility to "awaken" the "self"/"mind"/"thoughts" (an "I"); it is only possible for that belief to be dropped, and let the awakeness that already is, happen.

Illusion is just our wrong understanding of what we've been seeing.

No "I" is ever found there.

It all has become a bit of a game, it seems. The play of life...

Indeed... :)

Beliefs merely appears inside awareness, not outside of it

Yes, that is absolutely true.

Herein lies a very interesting question indeed :D

Can you find, in your direct experience, any separation between a thought (which could contain e.g. a belief) and the KNOWING of that thought?
Is there any gap at all, between the knowing and the known?
If there is no gap between awareness and what awareness knows, are thoughts in fact simply awareness appearing TO itself, in disguise?
Is this also true of the other "knowingknowns" - sight, sound, touch etc?
Are these also without separation between the known, and the knowing of it?
Are these also just awareness appearing TO itself?
Is there in fact ANYTHING other than awareness in existence, AT ALL, then?

[gondwana]

Hi Tom, how did that sit with you?
My last questions were taking things to quite an advanced level. It's perfectly ok if this seemed somewhat shocking ;)

[omega6666]

Can you find, in your direct experience, any separation between a thought (which could contain e.g. a belief) and the KNOWING of that thought?

No, none at all.

Is there any gap at all, between the knowing and the known?

No, it is all just appearing. Yet, somehow there is a quality of spaciousness around phenomena, where phenomena used to "be me". But this spacious distance to phenomena isn't a concrete distance, because the phenomena themselves haven't changed. It's like I'm not ignorant to the space anymore.

It's like when I feel a sensation on my lips and on my toes, but I can't say the sensation on my toes are any further away "from me" than the sensation on my lips, when I'm not using visual memory of my body for mapping these sensations. It's not that the sensations are appearing "in front of me" or anywhere in relation "to me". It's just there. But not in any relation to a "me".

Yet, I am not the sensations, so there's clearly a spacious "distance" there. But mind can't figure this out. It is precisely the way it is, without a need to "understand" this in any limited three dimensional way.

If there is no gap between awareness and what awareness knows, are thoughts in fact simply awareness appearing TO itself, in disguise?

Awareness is a word, so I'm that not sure anymore how to translate direct experience to language in any way to be sure that we are talking about the same "thing". When I talk about awareness I mean the only "thing" that can't be observed itself, yet there's no doubt about it being there.

When you say "there is no gap between awareness and what awareness knows" it also touches the understanding of there still being, or not being, any awareness left, when there nothing appearing "in it", doesn't it? It appears there might not be, since there's no separation observed between the known and the knowing. But are thoughts appearing in it any different from the sensations of my toe appearing in it? I personally don't think of thoughts as being originated from awareness itself, but that's philosophy, right? It can't be known from direct experience, can it?

Is this also true of the other "knowingknowns" - sight, sound, touch etc?

Ah, :) I hadn't read that question yet. Without thinking about it, it's "just there". Its origin seems to always redirects to thinking.

Are these also without separation between the known, and the knowing of it?

Yes, clearly.

Are these also just awareness appearing TO itself?

No, not necessarily. At least not to me, currently.

Is there in fact ANYTHING other than awareness in existence, AT ALL, then?

There's belief appearing inside awareness about you having an awareness as well. There's belief appearing that you have different things appearing in it.

ALL of my suffering is completely part of this particular universe of awareness, though, no matter how much the mere story within the thoughts appears to point to this "other" that can never be directly experienced. And my love towards others is always inside this awareness. But, again, this is the realm of belief of the mind.

Hi Tom, how did that sit with you?
My last questions were taking things to quite an advanced level. It's perfectly ok if this seemed somewhat shocking ;)

The advanced will always be within the basics, I think. The more things appear to get advanced and complex, the more we catch ourselves thinking, wouldn't you agree?

[gondwana]

There's belief appearing inside awareness about you having an awareness as well.

So this belief was identified. A belief is just an assumption, it's never true.

Therefore, can you drop the beliefs?

I personally don't think of thoughts as being originated from awareness itself

Would a thought exist without you knowing of it?

[omega6666]

So this belief was identified. A belief is just an assumption, it's never true.
Therefore, can you drop the beliefs?

Yes, absolutely! All real "true truths" are only directly observed, of course. But so is the belief that thoughts, sight, sound, touch are simply awareness appearing to itself, in disguise, right? You can feel where that takes place, right? All we know is that they're appearing.

Nothing wrong with a philosophy, we all have one. But I agree, it should have its place.

Would a thought exist without you knowing of it?

I see. It depends on what we call "awareness" and "originate". In a certain sense everything originates from awareness, if we bypass causality.

[omega6666]

Things are changing very rapidly, Tim. The present moment is starting to feel more and more as everything there is and that feels very, very peaceful. And spacious. It's like a field of peace, permeating everything in and around me, if that makes any sense...

Illusory thoughts about the present moment being but a very small part of reality and a mere vehicle for "the future" are clearly observed as itself being a small part of everything, besides them not being "me" anymore.

It's like time is still observed, but from a timeless, locationless perspective and thoughts can't ever understand this perspective, but it is 'felt' nevertheless, in a very direct manner.

The mind used to be very neurotic in trying to "handle things in the correct, spiritual way", but now any activity inside the mind (which "I" have completely no control over) is just recognized as "that's not it". What a cosmic joke, indeed. There was an "I" that used to want to fix everything in the mind, with the mind and that struggle got all the attention. Attention now remains more and more on that field of peace, by recognizing thoughts "not being what it's about", or something.

Thanks again, Tim, something important happened indeed and I'm very, very grateful for it. I'll keep having an open mind by not believing any thought of where I am on the spiritual ladder. Like it has a clue... :)

It becomes clearer and clearer that mind activity and "that place" where peace resides are taking place in two completely different "areas", for lack of a better word, yet both are taking place inside one, single awareness. Nothing needs to be "fixed" in the mind for us to experience peace. Peace can simply be tapped in, in a very undeserved manner. Or, from the perspective of the person, 'God' taps into me. There's no control over tapping in. We just have to be grateful for whatever happens.

[gondwana]

Sorry for the delay in replying. It sounds like some very good things are going on here indeed, right where they should be :)
Yes it does all make sense, to answer your question!

How are things now? Any further developments since you last wrote?

[omega6666]

Hey Tim,

No problem. Things are going very well. I do notice a lot of forgetfulness, by the way. Something my wife and colleagues have started noticing. The world of time is observed in such a strange manner, currently...

If this would have started to work out like this, without this strange path, I would have seen a doctor for it, I'm sure.

Regards,
Tom

[gondwana]

Hi Tom!

That is ok, this can happen sometimes. It will subside though before too long.

Right now, there is an adjustment/settling in phase to re-integrate the new realisation. Just relax, and let go into it. Enjoy this time!

Time of course does not really exist at the most fundamental level, which is what is starting to be seen. This and other topics can be delved into in the “after gate” forums. We will move this topic to Archived now and send instructions in private message on how to access the other groups for ongoing support and further looking, if needed. Importantly, remember you are not alone in this! There are many apparent others here (lol).

Kind regards.