Maitrinaga

[Maitrinaga]

Sorry Kay the Yes refers to the last sentence or clause when there is an OR in the question

Once more..

Does the colour itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply AE of colour?

YES there is simply AE of colour?T he colour itself does not suggest in any way that it knows anything about an ‘apple’

Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that the colour appearing is that of an ‘apple’?

The colour appearing is not known as ‘apple’ without thought or preconcieved ideas

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is an apple, and that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply AE of sensation?

YES there is simply AE of sensation?

Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sensation has anything to do with an ‘apple’?

It is not known as ‘apple’ without thought or without any preconceived ideas

Does taste itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simply AE of taste?

Yes there is just simply AE of taste.

Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the taste of an ‘apple’?

It is not known that it is the tase of ‘apple’ without thought,or any preconceived ideas,

Does smell itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of smell?

Yes there is simply AE of smell?

Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the smell of an ‘apple’?

It is not known as the smell of ‘apple’ without thought or without any preconceived ideas

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of sound?

YES there is simply AE of sound?

Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sound is that of an ‘apple’?

It cannot be known that it is the sound is that of an ‘apple’ without thought or without any preconceived ideas

Does the label itself or the thought itself know anything about an ‘apple’? Or are they just simply AE of label/thought?

The label itself knows nothing about an ‘apple’
The thought “I am looking at, and eating an apple” knoes nothing about an apple’
They are AE of label and thought

So is there really actual experience of an ‘apple’, or what is actually appearing, what the actual experience is, is colour, sensation, taste, smell, sound, which thought then labels and describes as an 'apple'?

NO actual experience of an ‘apple’ only what is appearing - colour, sensation, taste, smell, sound, which thought then labels and describes as an 'apple'?

In other words, is an apple actually known or only thoughts about an apple are known?

Yes only thoughts about an apple are known?

[forgetmenot]

Good evening MN,

Thank you for your lovely responses! I believe we are in sync now! Now that AE is clear, let's have a look at the nature of thought.

Here is a thought exercise. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay

Where are they coming from and going to?

They simply arise and disappear from nowhere.
Not sure if “coming from going to” is appropriate. The are not coming or going to any place no do they constitute a coherent narrative unless a thought appears to impute this

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, I did not do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, I could not make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead

Can you predict your next thought?

No, I cant predict my next thought

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No I can’t stop thinking a thought in the middle

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?

No there is no organised sequence. Especially If I look and ignore what they are saying

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Yes it is just another thought that says this. I thought initially a sense contact sparked off a thought but that itself is just another thought


Thing have gone pear shaped I am going back into hospial for a general anesthetic tomorrow morning and then in an ideal world I will be going on holiday on Fri.
I will try to keep the flow going - forgiveme if i am more mushy brainned tomorrow than usual.
But happy to plough on
I had inteded to keep talking during holiday - occasionaly me be remote from signal
What do you think? Pun

best MN

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

Where are they coming from and going to?

They simply arise and disappear from nowhere.
Not sure if “coming from going to” is appropriate. The are not coming or going to any place no do they constitute a coherent narrative unless a thought appears to impute this

Yes, they just arise and subside from nowhere, to nowhere.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Exactly! If there were actually a separate self somewhere, a real entity, 'me', surely that self would have it organised to think only nice or creative thoughts?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?

No there is no organised sequence. Especially If I look and ignore what they are saying.

Lovely…so keep LOOKING and ignore thoughts. That is the best way to see what actually IS.

Thing have gone pear shaped I am going back into hospial for a general anesthetic tomorrow morning and then in an ideal world I will be going on holiday on Fri.
I will try to keep the flow going - forgiveme if i am more mushy brainned tomorrow than usual. But happy to plough on

I hope all goes well for you. Give yourself a couple of days of respite and respond when you feel well enough/clear enough to respond. No rush.

I had inteded to keep talking during holiday - occasionaly me be remote from signal
What do you think? Pun

Nice pun! :) You have let me know that your responses may be a little sporadic, so that is AOK with me. We can continue if that is what you would like to do.

When you are ready, you can do the following exercise.

Okay, here is another exercise which points out the difference between actual experience and content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?


The thoughts and mental images are real (actual experience) only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?

No

Can you pour tea into it?

Not physically

Can you drink from it?

Not physically

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?

Only AE of image of a cup
Or/and
AE of label / thought of a “real cup”

Is there an appearing mental image?

Yes there is a mental image appearing
(what is appearing mental image?”)

Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

No it is thinking / immaging

[Maitrinaga]

Over the next few days I will look at the content of thoughts and see if they are really hppening or imagined
Best
MN

[forgetmenot]

Lovely MN. I will wait for your next post.

Kay
xx

[Maitrinaga]

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Hi Kay
The contents of arising thoughts or mental images are not really happening. However, I am unsure how to tell if they are purely imagined or not.
It seems when looked at they appear imaginary, Then when thought about, they appear as corresponding to some external reality.
Then the contents of that thought is looked at it is not really happening.
Best
MN

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

The contents of arising thoughts or mental images are not really happening. However, I am unsure how to tell if they are purely imagined or not.

It is like a book. The book title “Cinderella” is the title of the book (the thought), what the book is about (the ensuing thoughts), is the content of the book.

The thought “I still believe that I am a “me” arises. So the thought is actual experience of thought. And other thoughts that arise with that thought, about that thought, are the content of that thought. They are thoughts about thoughts.

An example of thought telling a story which does not refer to the actual experience of being, and only refers to the non-existent ‘content’ of thought, is the story about a “thinker of thoughts.” The thought, “I am the thinker of thoughts,” is saying that there is an “I” that is the thinker /author of thoughts.

But in actual experience, you will find no thinker of thoughts anywhere. In actual experience, thoughts show up, fully formed, and completely un-authored. If you were the author of thoughts, you would obviously never have to have had an unhappy thought, because you wouldn’t have chosen to author it. So clearly, the idea of a ‘thinker of thoughts’ is referring only to other thought.

Can you see this?

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Can you see this?

Well - looking in progress!
While your proposition sounds self evident - "thinker" only exists when thought about and never as AE.
I get into a recursive loop
Do I act?
or
only actions?
Do I decide
or
only decisions?
Do I know
or
only knowing

Still working on it
Best MN

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

Can you see this?

Well - looking in progress!
While your proposition sounds self evident - "thinker" only exists when thought about and never as AE.

Yes, exactly. So the thoughts ABOUT a thinker are the content of the thought “I am a thinker”. Is there an actual thinker contained in the thought itself? Or is there simply thoughts arising about a thinker? These thoughts are the content of the thought "I am a thinker".

It’s like a mental image appears that is labelled as ‘my mother’. Other thoughts about that label ‘my mother’ appear as well. Is your mother actually there, or is the mental image and the thoughts about your mother the content of the thought/label ‘mother’? Does the thought ‘mother’ actually contain your mother? Or what is actually appearing is simply thought.

Bring the thought ‘sweet’ to mind. When that thought appears, does the thought taste sweet? No. Because the content of thought does not contain any experience! The content of thought is more thought.

I get into a recursive loop
Do I act?
or
only actions?
Do I decide
or
only decisions?
Do I know
or
only knowing

Yes, only because you are getting hung up on the label “I”. We will be looking further at thought, but I would like you to be clear about AE and the content of thought.

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Yes, the one without using the word “I”

2. What is here without labels?

Bare awareness of AE

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Yes they affect the experience

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Yes the body is more open and relaxed during the second method. Using “I” requires effort to maintain the abstraction from the direct wat of experiencing.

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay
I have manged to spend a good hour or so on this exercise. It is challenging to keep a flow wile on the road here in Turkey. I was back in Hospital for an overnight and got stranded up a mountain yesterday. Of cours in between good dinners and relaxing etc..
I would prefer to resume out dialogue when I return when I can give it justice and time each day to look and respond.
If this does not suit i endeavour to keep up between areas lacking in signal etc.
Thanks so much
MN

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

You look after yourself and do what you need to do for you. When you are ready, you can just write a post saying so.

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay
I am back in Glasgow
Here is the lasr excercise again

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Yes the one without the “I” added is truer. The thinking about “I” then the consequent thinking about that thought – moves away from AE of the first

What is here without labels?

Experience of sound, colour, sensation, smell or thought.
The labels get treated as objects in and of themselves

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels do affect experience - only thoughts about experience are known when “I” is used. However, to a certain extent writing itself without using the pronoun also affects experience? The writing and thinking about experience is a different experience

Did you notice any differences in the body?

The body is more open and relaxed when noting without “I”

I beed help with no 2
Be well
MN