Hi, Peter,
Very cool. Here are the questions:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
You're welcome, Peter! It's a pleasure -- and I get enormous value through doing it, so it's a two-way street.
Sending love,
Robyn
Path or No Path
Re: Path or No Path
Bring Art to Life
Re: Path or No Path
Hi Robyn,
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, there's only ever been sensory perception.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of the separate self begins with the thought/idea "I" as an entity that is the experiencer of all sensory phenomenon. When in reality, there is only sensory phenomenon.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It doesn't feel too different. Only that there's a shift or more solidified understanding and acceptance of reality as it is. A surrendering to every moment. Coming to terms with this process called life. That regardless of what "I" think or choose, there's a natural unfolding since the beginning. Prior to this dialogue, I understood it intellectually, but there was still a strong resistance and sense of "I" wondering and internally debating of what to or what not to do. And this illusion of control. That in itself was also part of the experience. Now I see that it just is, action springs forth... every thought, phrase, feeling, emotion, and sensory experience happening all the time.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The realization that in the seeing, there is just seeing, and in the movement of my arms, there were just body sensations. That experience is made up of six sensory faculties. See, hear, taste, touch/feel, smell, thought. The experience of seeing my arm moving with the understanding that "I" was just a thought. And that it continued to move with an empty mind.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decision, intention, free will, choice, and control all fall under the wrong assumption that there is self, "I", or ego making things happen. When in fact, things just happen on their own accord based on prior and current causes and conditions. Everything spontaneously arises and passes every moment. I am not responsible for anything, there's just experience. Even working through this whole process is just an experience in itself. For example, the act of observing my arm and seeing what's in control, only to find that it is sensory experience.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, there's only ever been sensory perception.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of the separate self begins with the thought/idea "I" as an entity that is the experiencer of all sensory phenomenon. When in reality, there is only sensory phenomenon.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It doesn't feel too different. Only that there's a shift or more solidified understanding and acceptance of reality as it is. A surrendering to every moment. Coming to terms with this process called life. That regardless of what "I" think or choose, there's a natural unfolding since the beginning. Prior to this dialogue, I understood it intellectually, but there was still a strong resistance and sense of "I" wondering and internally debating of what to or what not to do. And this illusion of control. That in itself was also part of the experience. Now I see that it just is, action springs forth... every thought, phrase, feeling, emotion, and sensory experience happening all the time.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The realization that in the seeing, there is just seeing, and in the movement of my arms, there were just body sensations. That experience is made up of six sensory faculties. See, hear, taste, touch/feel, smell, thought. The experience of seeing my arm moving with the understanding that "I" was just a thought. And that it continued to move with an empty mind.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decision, intention, free will, choice, and control all fall under the wrong assumption that there is self, "I", or ego making things happen. When in fact, things just happen on their own accord based on prior and current causes and conditions. Everything spontaneously arises and passes every moment. I am not responsible for anything, there's just experience. Even working through this whole process is just an experience in itself. For example, the act of observing my arm and seeing what's in control, only to find that it is sensory experience.
Re: Path or No Path
Hi, Peter,
Thank you! Good job.
Just one part - Question #2 is meant for you to address how it starts in the lives of human beings, this identifying as an I. I.e., are we born believing ourselves to be separate selves? Like that...
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Sending love,
Robyn
Thank you! Good job.
Just one part - Question #2 is meant for you to address how it starts in the lives of human beings, this identifying as an I. I.e., are we born believing ourselves to be separate selves? Like that...
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Sending love,
Robyn
Bring Art to Life
Re: Path or No Path
I don't quite remember where in my youth did I start identifying myself as a separate entity. I'm sure it's the same for most humans. At some point in childhood, we're taught our name and taught the labeling of objects. This very act of naming and labeling categorizes and separate subject and objects in the mind. It creates the concepts of differences which includes what is "me" and what is "not me". We are actually not born with understanding that we are separate until we get slightly older and begin to recognize internal reaction to external phenomenon. This friction creates a self. A sense of self awareness arises that "I am this body" begins, due to the aggregate of sensory phenomenon that creates our subjective experience. We start to experience objects we're attracted to or repulsed by. And we see that things happen to this body which we mistakenly take as , happening to "me".
As it stands for me now, with this new understanding, the sense of "I" or "me" still exists. However, there's is an understanding that, like you said, "the self is santa claus". As real as every subjective experience or decision can seem, now there's an underlying understanding that this is just the way things are. When the mind is quiet, and I look, I'll see that there's only sensory phenomenon. When the strong illusion of a separate self comes forth, I now know, it is just the mind, another thought, another sensory perception. For now, it'll be a switching between the self and the new understanding until this new understanding matures and grows. I see it for what it is, and that helps in the process of letting it go. At times I know it will arise and take over, but now I also know it will pass as well and subside to where it came from. The sense of self is now less sticky, is how I would put it.
Thank you Robyn, for helping me see!
As it stands for me now, with this new understanding, the sense of "I" or "me" still exists. However, there's is an understanding that, like you said, "the self is santa claus". As real as every subjective experience or decision can seem, now there's an underlying understanding that this is just the way things are. When the mind is quiet, and I look, I'll see that there's only sensory phenomenon. When the strong illusion of a separate self comes forth, I now know, it is just the mind, another thought, another sensory perception. For now, it'll be a switching between the self and the new understanding until this new understanding matures and grows. I see it for what it is, and that helps in the process of letting it go. At times I know it will arise and take over, but now I also know it will pass as well and subside to where it came from. The sense of self is now less sticky, is how I would put it.
Thank you Robyn, for helping me see!
Re: Path or No Path
It's my pleasure, Peter. Totally.
You reference to a "sense of self." Are you referring to the content of thought, like "I am" or something that is lingering, like that 'I' really exists somewhere?
WIth love,
Robyn
This isn't something we've talked about and I don't understand what you mean. You mean, like the thought "I am this and that is that?"We are actually not born with understanding that we are separate until we get slightly older and begin to recognize internal reaction to external phenomenon.
You reference to a "sense of self." Are you referring to the content of thought, like "I am" or something that is lingering, like that 'I' really exists somewhere?
WIth love,
Robyn
Bring Art to Life
Re: Path or No Path
Yes, we did not talk about this. I mean as we grow from a baby to a child. As a baby, we're not aware of ourselves. There's only hunger, crying, pain, warmth, etc. However as toddlers, we begin the experience external stimuli creating an internal experience. And this external stimuli and internal experience begins to create friction, a sense of separation that hey, when I touch this thing, it burns, when I touch that thing it feels good. Outside stimuli begins to affect how we think and feel about external things, so we begin to perceive ourselves as separate from the world.This isn't something we've talked about and I don't understand what you mean. You mean, like the thought "I am this and that is that?"
Content of thought and feeling. When I internally say "I" or "me", there's still an experience that it exists, but is seen as a thought and feeling. A self referencing thought/feeling to this mind/body phenomenon. However, I know it's based on a false notion from the experiences and exercises we did earlier. I know that each time I truly look at it, I see that it's just a thought and a feeling, nothing more. Hence the santa claus analogy.You reference to a "sense of self." Are you referring to the content of thought, like "I am" or something that is lingering, like that 'I' really exists somewhere?
Did I just regress? =)
Re: Path or No Path
Hi, Peter,
Given the fact that 'I' is a thought/concept rather than a direct experience, how might 'I' arise in childhood?
Sending love,
Robyn
Haha! No. The questions are designed to illuminate aspects of seeing that might not be clear.Did I just regress? =)
Peter, is this something you learned? in experiencing seeing - or any experience, for that matter, is there really a DE of inside and an outside or is it all experience?Outside stimuli begins to affect how we think and feel about external things, so we begin to perceive ourselves as separate from the world.
Given the fact that 'I' is a thought/concept rather than a direct experience, how might 'I' arise in childhood?
By feeling, do you mean a body sensation? Or an emotion? Are you saying there's a feeling that is 'I'?I know that each time I truly look at it, I see that it's just a thought and a feeling, nothing more.
Sending love,
Robyn
Bring Art to Life
Re: Path or No Path
This is something I hypothesized and assumed through deduction of what may have given rise to an "I" as a child. So it was intellectual, not through direct experience. But to your point, it is all just experience, no in or out.Peter, is this something you learned? in experiencing seeing - or any experience, for that matter, is there really a DE of inside and an outside or is it all experience?
It arises on its own accord. It comes about through the process of life.Given the fact that 'I' is a thought/concept rather than a direct experience, how might 'I' arise in childhood?
Now that you mention it, this feeling was imagined. I had originally imagined it to be somewhere near the center of my body, my chest/throat area. But now I realize that was also an assumption, my imagination. If I break it down, it is neither body sensation nor emotion.By feeling, do you mean a body sensation? Or an emotion? Are you saying there's a feeling that is 'I'?
This feeling, It's the feeling of awareness. Awareness of existence. It is existence.
Re: Path or No Path
Hi, Peter,
I guess that how the thought 'I' comes about and our operating consistent with the thought is all theory. I certainly don't have a thought-memory of going from direct experience to the persistent thought, 'I.' Consider though, that, as you mentioned that we are given names and interacted with like separate selves -- we are enculturated. I wonder what it was like for someone like Helen Keller before language intruded! Anyway, with regard to that question, stick as best you can to what is directly observable.
Will you please send me a message with all the questions answered again together? I will run it by a couple of other guides and see if there's anything I overlooked or they think I might want to deepen with you. Then, when it's complete, you will be invited to LU Aftercare and another private group or two for those who've gated.
To assist you with this, here are the questions again:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Sending love,
Robyn
Nice job of looking.it is all just experience, no in or out.
I guess that how the thought 'I' comes about and our operating consistent with the thought is all theory. I certainly don't have a thought-memory of going from direct experience to the persistent thought, 'I.' Consider though, that, as you mentioned that we are given names and interacted with like separate selves -- we are enculturated. I wonder what it was like for someone like Helen Keller before language intruded! Anyway, with regard to that question, stick as best you can to what is directly observable.
Lovely!This feeling, It's the feeling of awareness. Awareness of existence. It is existence.
Will you please send me a message with all the questions answered again together? I will run it by a couple of other guides and see if there's anything I overlooked or they think I might want to deepen with you. Then, when it's complete, you will be invited to LU Aftercare and another private group or two for those who've gated.
To assist you with this, here are the questions again:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Sending love,
Robyn
Bring Art to Life
Re: Path or No Path
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No there never was. We arise based on causes and conditions of existence unfolding.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The separate self is an illusion that starts out in early human life where self awareness is mistaken for this mind, this body. It is the tip of the iceberg where the universe is experiencing itself. In actuality, there's no "self" awareness. There is only awareness, awareness of existence not confined to this body or this mind. But limited to all that is seen, heard, felt, thought of, and emotionally experienced.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It's rather liberating to know that there is no-doer. To know that no matter what happens in life, it's unfolding as it should. Including every experience of resistance to what is. To every struggle, right or wrong choice.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Emphasis on the questions challenging my perspective using direct experience. "sense", through sight, sound, smell, thought, body sensation, or emotion?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I am responsible for neither. It is all just experience, process, happenings. What makes things happens are just causes and conditions beyond my knowing. There may never be a need to "know" this lifetime. It just is, and to embrace it. It is beyond human faculty to comprehend for the time being.
No there never was. We arise based on causes and conditions of existence unfolding.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The separate self is an illusion that starts out in early human life where self awareness is mistaken for this mind, this body. It is the tip of the iceberg where the universe is experiencing itself. In actuality, there's no "self" awareness. There is only awareness, awareness of existence not confined to this body or this mind. But limited to all that is seen, heard, felt, thought of, and emotionally experienced.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It's rather liberating to know that there is no-doer. To know that no matter what happens in life, it's unfolding as it should. Including every experience of resistance to what is. To every struggle, right or wrong choice.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Emphasis on the questions challenging my perspective using direct experience. "sense", through sight, sound, smell, thought, body sensation, or emotion?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I am responsible for neither. It is all just experience, process, happenings. What makes things happens are just causes and conditions beyond my knowing. There may never be a need to "know" this lifetime. It just is, and to embrace it. It is beyond human faculty to comprehend for the time being.
Re: Path or No Path
Thank you, Peter,
I'm going to share this with a couple of other guides and see if they have any further questions or guidance for me.
Sending love,
Robyn
I'm going to share this with a couple of other guides and see if they have any further questions or guidance for me.
Sending love,
Robyn
Bring Art to Life
Re: Path or No Path
Hi, Peter,
Here are two questions that came back --
Will you please provide a couple of examples from your experience, as asked in Question 5 about free will, choice, control?yn
Sending love,
Robyn
Here are two questions that came back --
If there was never a separate self then who/what is the "we' that "arise based on causes and conditions of existence unfolding"? There is either a separate self or there isn't.No there never was. We arise based on causes and conditions of existence unfolding.
Will you please provide a couple of examples from your experience, as asked in Question 5 about free will, choice, control?yn
Sending love,
Robyn
Bring Art to Life
Re: Path or No Path
We as in the illusion of a separate self, the collective ego, humanity. It's difficult to ignore or disregard the illusion's very own existence as well. It is also a valid perspective, because it exist in its own right in duality. However, the premise is based on a false notion. It's a bit of a paradox.If there was never a separate self then who/what is the "we' that "arise based on causes and conditions of existence unfolding"? There is either a separate self or there isn't.
In the seen, there is only the seen. However in the seen, in duality, there is also discernment between one object and another object, although both are part of the whole.
There exists individual unique human beings and animate or inanimate objects that make up the whole. A fraction of totality. The wave and its crest/trough exists as part of the ocean, yet it is all the ocean. It is all water, yet the wave, crest, trough, and ocean all simultaneously exist as one.
So I agree, there's no separate self until the mind uses thoughts to split, separate, categorize, and label.
"Everything is one and one is everything"
There's no real choice per se. It is just thoughts that arise. One thought outweighs the other then action takes fruition from that thought.Will you please provide a couple of examples from your experience, as asked in Question 5 about free will, choice, control?yn
Re: Path or No Path
Just re-read my post I recalled one thing you mentioned.
Thoughts are just thoughts. Again, I was caught in the trap of the content of thought.
The content of thought becomes labels, objects, crest, wave, trough, ocean. But from a direct experience perspective, it is only thought.
So with thoughts being void of its content, then in the cognized, there is only the cognized and in the seen, only the seen.
=)
Thoughts are just thoughts. Again, I was caught in the trap of the content of thought.
The content of thought becomes labels, objects, crest, wave, trough, ocean. But from a direct experience perspective, it is only thought.
So with thoughts being void of its content, then in the cognized, there is only the cognized and in the seen, only the seen.
=)
Re: Path or No Path
Hi, Peter,
Will you please provide a couple of examples from your experience, as asked in Question 5 about free will, choice, control?
Peter, there's a common occurrence here -- it seems as if you answer from direct experience and then start expounding by sharing the content of thoughts on the subjects. :-)
In one moment, there's clarity that thoughts are thoughts -- in the next, it seems like thoughts are being considered as I. Are thoughts I?
Love,
Robyn
I'm not sure if you are clear that this part, too, is a report of the content of thoughts. Please re-answer the question to reflect what you see directly, ok?We as in the illusion of a separate self, the collective ego, humanity. It's difficult to ignore or disregard the illusion's very own existence as well. It is also a valid perspective, because it exist in its own right in duality. However, the premise is based on a false notion. It's a bit of a paradox.
This is an interesting story. Action is caused by one thought outweighing another?One thought outweighs the other then action takes fruition from that thought.
Will you please provide a couple of examples from your experience, as asked in Question 5 about free will, choice, control?
Peter, there's a common occurrence here -- it seems as if you answer from direct experience and then start expounding by sharing the content of thoughts on the subjects. :-)
In one moment, there's clarity that thoughts are thoughts -- in the next, it seems like thoughts are being considered as I. Are thoughts I?
Love,
Robyn
Bring Art to Life
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