Who is looking for?

[forgetmenot]

Hey Kuka,

Labels are used to communicate, without them it would be rather difficult to communicate let alone point! ‘Colour’ is a label that is used to point to what is ‘seen/known’ ie actual experience, there is no other way to describe what is seen. I have used the word ‘images’ but then people get caught up in images and can’t see that the word ‘image’ is not referring to objects, but to colour itself, as there are no objects. All seeming ‘objects’ have colour and what is seen is colour. However, seeing and knowing are one and the same. Seeing of colour and seeing of seeing are one and the same = colour and colour = experience/THIS/knowing.

There is no division between "knowing" and "known". They are one and the same thing. This that IS, is the knowingknown. Are you able to separate a colour from the “knowing” of it?

The following exercise may help with the idea of ‘seeing/colour’. It is also a lead into what I wanted to explore with you next…the idea of control, choice and decision making.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie black).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or black ‘space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the black ‘space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

You seem to use word 'colour' in two different meanings. One meaning is 'AE of what is seen' and the other is 'spesific colour, like the one labelled red'. Like this:

Can you now see why the word ‘colour’ is used instead of ‘seeing’. Seeing implies that there is someone seeing (subject) and that the body’s eyes see and that what is seen are objects that are 'out there'! Colour is just what is. The label ‘colour’ points to experience/THIS/knowing. Experience is not some sort of invisible substance. Colour = experience itself, they are one and the same thing.

No, we can't pluck anything out of the scenery. Even when I hold an apple on my hand, it's still seamless part of the scenery, no matter how much I try to pluck it! Objects are separated/created by thoughts, using concepts/labels, that have become habits of the mind.

Yes, exactly. You have seen that there are no gaps, there is just a seamless whole.



A map shows how a country is seemingly divided into states. Is the map made of those divisions? Or are those divisions simply the map being the map? The divisions are the map, but the map is not a division. Can you see this?

There is no sound AND taste AND colour AND sensation AND thought AND smell, let alone all the so called different colours, sensations, tastes, smell, thoughts and sounds. There is simply soundtastecoloursensationthoughtsmell = experience/THIS/knowing.

With love, Kay

[Kuka]

Kay,

Just a quick note, that I'm not able to answer before next week. But then finally I should have ample time to dive in fully.

Have a nive weekend,


Kuka

[Kuka]

Hi Kay,

Getting back to this now. I get what you are saying about labels, communication, and why 'colour'. Thank you for explaining me all that.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or black ‘space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the black ‘space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

I cannot turn of seeing, or not to see what is there. Same goes with hearing, or any other sense. I can (and often do) focus on part of the experience so intensively, that other parts fade to the background, but still the basic 'channel' remain always on. For example often I don't recognize my bodily feelings much when gazing some screen, but if a fly would land on my neck i probably would be tickled by it.

Chooser chose to turn head, close eyes - to follow the instructions. When looking closely, there was no self choosing anything, just thought's appearing, amongst them decision to turn the head etc. Well, I'm not 100% sure... is decision just a thought? Sometimes it feels that 'I do, I choose', sometimes that 'it happens'. I see that I'm very fond of on the thought of me being in control of me - at least sometimes.

A map shows how a country is seemingly divided into states. Is the map made of those divisions? Or are those divisions simply the map being the map? The divisions are the map, but the map is not a division. Can you see this?

I see that the colours and divisions by themselves are not enough to make map. They have to be there in order to make a map, but they are not enough. Map is only a map if we also have the idea that 'it is a map' and that idea includes the thought structure that 'map' in general is something that points in special way to a 'country' or 'territory' etc. Without all those ideas, it would be just an image with colours.

Best regards,

Kuka

[forgetmenot]

Hello Kuka,

Take a couple of days to do these exercises. Go back and read my last few posts so that you can see what I am pointing at and why I am pointing at it. Look very carefully.

I cannot turn of seeing, or not to see what is there. Same goes with hearing, or any other sense. I can (and often do) focus on part of the experience so intensively, that other parts fade to the background, but still the basic 'channel' remain always on. For example often I don't recognize my bodily feelings much when gazing some screen, but if a fly would land on my neck i probably would be tickled by it.

Where exactly is this “I” that “can focus on part of the experience so intensively, that other parts fade to the background”? Please describe this “I” to me in precise detail and where this “I” is located.

And how does this “I” choose to do this exactly?
Please give me the step by step instructions on how you choose to have the thought that you will now “focus on part of the experience intensively” and how you bring that thought to the forefront to be noticed? And then tell me how it is that this “I” just focusses on that particular experience?


Let’s try another exercise. Please look very carefully.

If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Chooser chose to turn head, close eyes - to follow the instructions. When looking closely, there was no self choosing anything, just thought's appearing, amongst them decision to turn the head etc. Well, I'm not 100% sure... is decision just a thought? Sometimes it feels that 'I do, I choose', sometimes that 'it happens'. I see that I'm very fond of on the thought of me being in control of me - at least sometimes.

Okay, let’s try this exercise and see if you can find a chooser/decider/controller. Please look carefully. And keep looking until you are 100% sure :)

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

A map shows how a country is seemingly divided into states. Is the map made of those divisions? Or are those divisions simply the map being the map? The divisions are the map, but the map is not a division. Can you see this?

I see that the colours and divisions by themselves are not enough to make map. They have to be there in order to make a map, but they are not enough. Map is only a map if we also have the idea that 'it is a map' and that idea includes the thought structure that 'map' in general is something that points in special way to a 'country' or 'territory' etc. Without all those ideas, it would be just an image with colours.

Hmmm…let’s look at this again.




The map is a metaphor for Experience/THIS itself and how thought divides experience into divisions ie smell, taste, colour, sound, sensation and thought.

Here is a map of Australia which is divided into different States. Is the map actually divided? Do the divisions actually divide the map into many different pieces…or is the map still a map – a seamless whole? Is the country Australia actually divided into those States, or is the country a seamless whole? Are there actual tangible borders that separate each State from each other?

The map may appear with divisions, but the divisions are part of the map. That map does not need the divisions to exist, but the divisions need the map to exist!

Experience is not derived from sound, taste, smell, thought, sensation and colour. They are derived from Experience/THIS itself - not the other way round. Without experience they could not be!
Can you see this?

With love, Kay

[Kuka]

Hi Kay,

I have been doing the exercises and trying my best. This turning my hand and trying to locate the decicion / doer was a really interesting exercise.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

There is actually no decision at all. The turning of the hand just 'happens in the hand as it turns'. Okay, I can think (or there can be a thought) that 'I turn the hand now' but there is no actual connection between that thought and the hand. Decision are not done, they happen, or maybe it's more correct to say that they don't exist at all. This is weird, and on the other hand(turn) it is not.

If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

I could not have chosen any of that and if I can't choose what I'm aware of then there is nothing else to choose.

The map is a metaphor for Experience/THIS itself and how thought divides experience into divisions ie smell, taste, colour, sound, sensation and thought.

Here is a map of Australia which is divided into different States.
Is the map actually divided? Do the divisions actually divide the map into many different pieces…or is the map still a map – a seamless whole? Is the country Australia actually divided into those States, or is the country a seamless whole? Are there actual tangible borders that separate each State from each other?

No, it's not divided, not like puzzle would be divided into pieces. The picture is whole, the screen that I'm watching it on, is whole too. No tangible borders at all. And so is experience one seamless whole.

Where exactly is this “I” that “can focus on part of the experience so intensively, that other parts fade to the background”? Please describe this “I” to me in precise detail and where this “I” is located.

And how does this “I” choose to do this exactly?
Please give me the step by step instructions on how you choose to have the thought that you will now “focus on part of the experience intensively” and how you bring that thought to the forefront to be noticed? And then tell me how it is that this “I” just focusses on that particular experience?

The focusing is not done by any "I". Instead, the attention is sometimes captured by a thought, sound, sensation, or something so that other things fade into background. Like when something heavy drops on my toe, the pain overrides everything for a moment (or so I think), or if I am succumbed into daydreaming or in some grim thoughts about possible negative future events, these thoughts can become so strong that I'm only dimly aware of anything else. But, in the moment, there is no choice to do that. It is something that just happens. Even in the meditation, when I have an intention to focus on the breath, then in any given moment the focusing either happens, or does not happen. And actually, on this very moment that I'm focusing on the writing of this reply, these very words, I'm not actually able to say if anything fades into background or not. I hear some sounds, feel some bodily feelings in THIS experience, but to say that something is NOT seen, heard... etc. is just works of imagination, a construct, that is built after the fact. On a one level it may be true story that I didn't hear some sound, because I was so focused on this writing, but in the AE I cannot say if there are any other things than those things that are there.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Kuka,

Nice LOOKING! :) Once again, take a couple of days, if needed, to really do these exercise to look carefully.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

There is actually no decision at all. The turning of the hand just 'happens in the hand as it turns'. Okay, I can think (or there can be a thought) that 'I turn the hand now' but there is no actual connection between that thought and the hand. Decision are not done, they happen, or maybe it's more correct to say that they don't exist at all. This is weird, and on the other hand(turn) it is not.

Nice! Have you ever found yourself scratching your nose or a part of the body and then becoming aware that you are scratching? If thought or a decision maker were actually needed then how could this ‘unconscious’ scratching take place?!

I

f you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

I could not have chosen any of that and if I can't choose what I'm aware of then there is nothing else to choose.

Yes, exactly!

Is the map actually divided? Do the divisions actually divide the map into many different pieces…or is the map still a map – a seamless whole?

No, it's not divided, not like puzzle would be divided into pieces. The picture is whole, the screen that I'm watching it on, is whole too. No tangible borders at all. And so is experience one seamless whole.

Yes! So if you look now, where does the computer screen end and the desk begin?

The focusing is not done by any "I". Instead, the attention is sometimes captured by a thought, sound, sensation, or something so that other things fade into background.

Whose/what attention exactly is being captured by a thought, sound etc?

Like when something heavy drops on my toe, the pain overrides everything for a moment (or so I think), or if I am succumbed into daydreaming or in some grim thoughts about possible negative future events, these thoughts can become so strong that I'm only dimly aware of anything else

The following exercise will help with the idea of what is paid attention to. It is also another good exercise on choices/decisions, but pay attention to the second question with regards to where ‘attention’ goes to.

Here's what’s needed - A chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

But, in the moment, there is no choice to do that. It is something that just happens. Even in the meditation, when I have an intention to focus on the breath, then in any given moment the focusing either happens, or does not happen. And actually, on this very moment that I'm focusing on the writing of this reply, these very words, I'm not actually able to say if anything fades into background or not. I hear some sounds, feel some bodily feelings in THIS experience, but to say that something is NOT seen, heard... etc. is just works of imagination, a construct, that is built after the fact. On a one level it may be true story that I didn't hear some sound, because I was so focused on this writing, but in the AE I cannot say if there are any other things than those things that are there.

Look at this yourself with different experiences. For example, focus just on thoughts alone and then see if you can listen to a sound at the same time. What happens?

With love, Kay

[Kuka]

Nice! Have you ever found yourself scratching your nose or a part of the body and then becoming aware that you are scratching? If thought or a decision maker were actually needed then how could this ‘unconscious’ scratching take place?!

Yes, but you can also become conscious of your impulse to scratch and then choose not to do it. Like when you have had a wound that is in the process of healing. Often times it is very difficult to not (eventually) scratch an itch, but it can be done at least for a while. How does this happen then? I'm a bit lost, because I just saw how a clear decision to turn hand actually was not a decision of "I", rather it was a happening - but still, I guess, when you choose not to scratch, there is strong feeling of some control interrupting the automatic flow of things. It's still the same thing, no? The decision to not to scratch 'happens' as much as the scratching itself would 'happen'? (Difficult to observe, because I'm not itching now. Will definitely look into this when occasion arises.) The doctor says: "Don't scratch these stitches, as that will cause inflammation, and your wound will never heal!" This then pre-conditions the mind to become aware of the impulse to scratch, and then the choice can happen?

Is the map actually divided? Do the divisions actually divide the map into many different pieces…or is the map still a map – a seamless whole?

No, it's not divided, not like puzzle would be divided into pieces. The picture is whole, the screen that I'm watching it on, is whole too. No tangible borders at all. And so is experience one seamless whole.

Yes! So if you look now, where does the computer screen end and the desk begin?

In a same way that I cannot pluck anything out of the scene, there is no border between screen and the desk.

The focusing is not done by any "I". Instead, the attention is sometimes captured by a thought, sound, sensation, or something so that other things fade into background.

Whose/what attention exactly is being captured by a thought, sound etc?

No one's. The attention just forms around the captivating thing / thing of focus. It's not like attention would be 'in here', then go 'out there' to fetch something back. There is no in and out, it just is.

The following exercise will help with the idea of what is paid attention to. It is also another good exercise on choices/decisions, but pay attention to the second question with regards to where ‘attention’ goes to.

Here's what’s needed - A chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

This again was very interesting exercise.

1. I didn't choose the qualities or the preference.
2. I did not choose how the things were set in the foreground and background. When I started counting, the thoughts of tastes etc. just automatically faded to the background. It's like the counting itself turned down the preferences.
3. This was more tricky. I first did this exercise without 'letting the dust settle', just rushed into it. That way it was bit difficult to say if there was a chooser or not, if it was 'I' or not. Then I really took the time, placed the cups further apart and did this again. Then it the choice and the experience of choosing were 'inside of each other' or that they were one and the same thing. There was a feeling of wholeness accompanied in the choosing event, but it was not that feeling that did the choosing.

But, in the moment, there is no choice to do that. It is something that just happens. Even in the meditation, when I have an intention to focus on the breath, then in any given moment the focusing either happens, or does not happen. And actually, on this very moment that I'm focusing on the writing of this reply, these very words, I'm not actually able to say if anything fades into background or not. I hear some sounds, feel some bodily feelings in THIS experience, but to say that something is NOT seen, heard... etc. is just works of imagination, a construct, that is built after the fact. On a one level it may be true story that I didn't hear some sound, because I was so focused on this writing, but in the AE I cannot say if there are any other things than those things that are there.

Look at this yourself with different experiences. For example, focus just on thoughts alone and then see if you can listen to a sound at the same time. What happens?

I can't almost even begin this. If I focus on thoughts I cannot listen to a sound. If I listen to a sound, thoughts stop.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Kuka,

For the moment I am going to put all that aside. When I start guiding I always start with looking at AE and then follow that with thoughts. I have looked back and noticed that we have not looked at thoughts, so I have dropped you in at the deep end instead of starting at the shallow end and slowly paddling you along to the deep end. When you have seen through the nature of thought, we will pick up where we left off. Sorry about this!

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

With love, Kay

[Kuka]

Hi Kay,

It's OK, I don't mind if the path is winding.

I have done this a exercise a couple of times, and I'm ready to do it again after hearing your comments. Here are my answers:

Where are they coming from and going to?

They are not coming from anywhere and going to nowhere. They form and vanish in the moment.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No.

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?

There is definitely no logic in a way that I could predict the next thought at the moment, or a rule that the thinking would follow. There is a lot of randomness. Some themes keep coming back like the question 'Where do thoughts come from? ' You can never predict for certain where thinking is going at the moment. When I look back there where periods of seeming order, (like period of thinking how the things I ordered recently are going to be delivered) but at those moments these 'trains of thought' could have taken any other direction at any moment. At moments I fell closer to sleep, and thoughts took a bit more bizzare ways, like 'looking into vacuum cleaner that is actually a kind of mine of something precious'.

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

In a way thoughts are just the process of thinking changing. I'm not sure if there are gaps in between thoughts, but it seems so, and it seems there is a simple order in time, like 'a while ago thinking of the package delivery, now almost at sleep, dreaming of vacuumcleanermine'. I cannot see precise beginning or end of a thought, but I see one thought as being different from another. I also think that having the thought of 'where does this thought come from' is coming from reading your exercise and setting out to do it - but this itself is of course just a thought, I don't see one thought causing another in AE. In the very moment, there is just thinking happening.

Sincerely,


Kuka

[forgetmenot]

Hello Kuka,

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

In a way thoughts are just the process of thinking changing. I'm not sure if there are gaps in between thoughts, but it seems so, and it seems there is a simple order in time, like 'a while ago thinking of the package delivery, now almost at sleep, dreaming of vacuumcleanermine'.

Yes, it SEEMS so…and ‘seems” is just another thought!
Without a thought appearing saying “that thoughts are ordered in time”, how would that be known?

I cannot see precise beginning or end of a thought, but I see one thought as being different from another.

And how is that known? The actual experience of thought isn't any different just because the content of the thought is different.

I also think that having the thought of 'where does this thought come from' is coming from reading your exercise and setting out to do it - but this itself is of course just a thought, I don't see one thought causing another in AE. In the very moment, there is just thinking happening.

Where exactly is this “I” that is thinking?

So let’s have a look at the idea that thought is the catalyst for doership/action.

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

With love, Kay

[Kuka]

Hi Kay,

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

In a way thoughts are just the process of thinking changing. I'm not sure if there are gaps in between thoughts, but it seems so, and it seems there is a simple order in time, like 'a while ago thinking of the package delivery, now almost at sleep, dreaming of vacuumcleanermine'.

Yes, it SEEMS so…and ‘seems” is just another thought!
Without a thought appearing saying “that thoughts are ordered in time”, how would that be known?

It would not be known without thought.

I also think that having the thought of 'where does this thought come from' is coming from reading your exercise and setting out to do it - but this itself is of course just a thought, I don't see one thought causing another in AE. In the very moment, there is just thinking happening.

Where exactly is this “I” that is thinking?

Actually nowhere. It is just a label I have to use in order to write meaningful sentences.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Without sound the happenings on my screen are more like a scattered events without much drama going on. They are separate episodes and I focus more on the particularities of the current view. The characters (players) are more just a characters and it's not so clear if they have some intentions or not. I also see more things that are not directly meaningful to the game, like the color of the grass, advertisements etc.

The speech then gives the continuity for the events. It also projects some emotions and intentions to the characters and gives all the happenings on the screen an order and meaning.

When I turned the sound of and on again and noticed it as a sound... Well I was not really able to notice it as a 'pure' sound, not hearing the words, but anyway there was a clear disconnect between what was seen and heard. The speech was somehow irrelevant to what was happening on the screen, and actually it sounded quite comical. Kind of too dramatic and theatrical in contrast to what was actually seen in the picture.

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

No it's not.

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?[/color]

No, and the narration is often quite funny too. It gets sometimes comical just because it's so serious.

Sincerely,


Kuka

[forgetmenot]

Hello Kuka,

Okay...now you have investigated thought and seen how thought is the narrator. Back to the post about choice etc.

Nice! Have you ever found yourself scratching your nose or a part of the body and then becoming aware that you are scratching? If thought or a decision maker were actually needed then how could this ‘unconscious’ scratching take place?

!

The decision to not to scratch 'happens' as much as the scratching itself would 'happen'? (Difficult to observe, because I'm not itching now. Will definitely look into this when occasion arises.) The doctor says: "Don't scratch these stitches, as that will cause inflammation, and your wound will never heal!" This then pre-conditions the mind to become aware of the impulse to scratch, and then the choice can happen?

Now that you have looked at thought and watched the sports video….I would like you to look at this again. I want you to notice throughout your day, how choices/decisions are made and let me know how you go.

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts and the chooser of choices, then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.

You might also find this video about decisions interesting.

https://vimeo.com/90101368

Yes! So if you look now, where does the computer screen end and the desk begin?

In a same way that I cannot pluck anything out of the scene, there is no border between screen and the desk.

Yes exactly! So when you look at those pictures I posted on the thread…are there any borders between the colours or is there just simply colour, which thought then divides into many different colours by labelling them with different labels and objects?

2. I did not choose how the things were set in the foreground and background. When I started counting, the thoughts of tastes etc. just automatically faded to the background. It's like the counting itself turned down the preferences.

Numbers and counting are just thoughts…thoughts cannot turn down preferences. Thoughts are not an entity, they are just an appearance that arise and subside.

3. This was more tricky. I first did this exercise without 'letting the dust settle', just rushed into it. That way it was bit difficult to say if there was a chooser or not, if it was 'I' or not. Then I really took the time, placed the cups further apart and did this again. Then it the choice and the experience of choosing were 'inside of each other' or that they were one and the same thing. There was a feeling of wholeness accompanied in the choosing event, but it was not that feeling that did the choosing.
But, in the moment, there is no choice to do that. It is something that just happens.

Lovely yes,…it is something that just happens.

On a one level it may be true story that I didn't hear some sound, because I was so focused on this writing, but in the AE I cannot say if there are any other things than those things that are there.

On what level exactly? Is there here and there? Is there another place other than here, now? You did the choice-awareness exercise. Were you able to choose what you were aware of? Can you choose what sound appears, what thought appears, what sensation appears, what taste appears, what smell appears, what colour appears or when or where they appear?

Look at this yourself with different experiences. For example, focus just on thoughts alone and then see if you can listen to a sound at the same time. What happens?

I can't almost even begin this. If I focus on thoughts I cannot listen to a sound. If I listen to a sound, thoughts stop.

Exactly. It is only a thought that says, I was too focussed on thought to hear anything.
If there is no awareness of sound…would sound actually be happening?

Sit quietly somewhere and let the dust settle for a moment and then listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside.
Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as sound.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than the sound?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?
3) Is there a dividing line between ‘hearer’ and sound?

Can a 'hearer' be found in 'what is being heard’ ie AE of sound?
Is that also confirmable experientially?
Can an INHERENT HEARER be found or it is only thought that suggests that there is a hearer AND sound?

With love, Kay

[Kuka]

Now that you have looked at thought and watched the sports video….I would like you to look at this again. I want you to notice throughout your day, how choices/decisions are made and let me know how you go.

They are made so, that I think about the options, and then the decision just comes by itself. If it is difficult choice, it may take longer to mature and I'm aware of the situation. But most of the decisions such as a decision to put a shirt on, is so automatic, that it sounds almost an exaggeration to even call it a 'decision'. But regardless how big or small a decision is, I cannot really know how it is made in the end and at the very moment. It just happens.

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts and the chooser of choices, then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.

17. I don't know why.

And yes, the video was interesting, though I had already heard about things being this way.

Yes exactly! So when you look at those pictures I posted on the thread…are there any borders between the colours or is there just simply colour, which thought then divides into many different colours by labelling them with different labels and objects?

Yes, in this way it is just colour and divided only by thought.

On a one level it may be true story that I didn't hear some sound, because I was so focused on this writing, but in the AE I cannot say if there are any other things than those things that are there.

On what level exactly? Is there here and there? Is there another place other than here, now? You did the choice-awareness exercise. Were you able to choose what you were aware of? Can you choose what sound appears, what thought appears, what sensation appears, what taste appears, what smell appears, what colour appears or when or where they appear?

Just like this:

- Did you hear that?
- What?
- I think it was a blackbird.
- I didn't hear anything.
- Listen, now it is singing again!
- Oh yeah!

Exactly. It is only a thought that says, I was too focussed on thought to hear anything.
If there is no awareness of sound…would sound actually be happening?

Well, not if I think strictly from my own point of view, but there can be other people who say that it did happen.

Sit quietly somewhere and let the dust settle for a moment and then listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside.
Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as sound.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than the sound?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?
3) Is there a dividing line between ‘hearer’ and sound?

Can a 'hearer' be found in 'what is being heard’ ie AE of sound?
Is that also confirmable experientially?
Can an INHERENT HEARER be found or it is only thought that suggests that there is a hearer AND sound?

So I was lying in a sofa in our new apartment, listening to sounds. It is very quiet here, mostly just some singular sounds every now and then. It's a strong reflex to hear a surprising sound 'out there' and locate 'me here in my body' accordingly. I put on a sound of slow metronome from Youtube, to have something regular. Tick, tick, tick... It calms me down, and after a while I relax and my sense of self merges together with the sound. Then a thought: "What is this sense of self pointing to?" Listening to some more. It seems that forceful focusing creates the sense of self, which can feel to be in my body or at the sound itself. When listening some more, there are moments of hearing just the sound. But then I hear steps in the stairways, coming towards our door. I'm only in my underwear. Is it just my girlfriend coming back? Or is it some delivery? Do I have to dress up and go to the door? It was a neighbour going home.

Yesterday evening I was in an event where was lots of people in small gallery talking loudly. In hearing, just the heard, no me here or there. Same thing sometimes when just walking in the city.

When focusing on a sound, it is easy for me to not find a border between sound and hearer. But still the pull to experience it in terms of self is very strong.

[Kuka]

I would like to know what you think about this video, and the way how he speaks about fiction? I think self is fictional / real in the same way Harari presents these other things, like gods and money to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzj7Wg4DAbs

[forgetmenot]

Hello Kuka,

Now that you have looked at thought and watched the sports video….I would like you to look at this again. I want you to notice throughout your day, how choices/decisions are made and let me know how you go

They are made so, that I think about the options, and then the decision just comes by itself. If it is difficult choice, it may take longer to mature and I'm aware of the situation. But most of the decisions such as a decision to put a shirt on, is so automatic, that it sounds almost an exaggeration to even call it a 'decision'. But regardless how big or small a decision is, I cannot really know how it is made in the end and at the very moment. It just happens.

And do you choose to think those options, or do those options just also happen? In other words, do you author or choose those thoughts that are labelled as ‘options’?

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts and the chooser of choices, then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.

17. I don't know why.

So is it clearly seen that you are not the chooser or thinker of thought? If you cannot choose your thoughts, is there a ‘you’ who is responsible for what actions happen or don’t happen? Is there a ‘you’ who is responsible for anything?

Yes exactly! So when you look at those pictures I posted on the thread…are there any borders between the colours or is there just simply colour, which thought then divides into many different colours by labelling them with different labels and objects?

Yes, in this way it is just colour and divided only by thought.

So, it is clear that there is only seamless, undivided experience which thought labels as ‘colour’?

On a one level it may be true story that I didn't hear some sound, because I was so focused on this writing, but in the AE I cannot say if there are any other things than those things that are there.

On what level exactly? Is there here and there? Is there another place other than here, now? You did the choice-awareness exercise. Were you able to choose what you were aware of? Can you choose what sound appears, what thought appears, what sensation appears, what taste appears, what smell appears, what colour appears or when or where they appear?

Just like this:

- Did you hear that?
- What?
- I think it was a blackbird.
- I didn't hear anything.
- Listen, now it is singing again!
- Oh yeah!

And what exactly are those…are they not thoughts? If thought said that fairies were real, does that make it so?
Where is the dividing line between the awareness of the sound (ie hearer) and the sound itself? If there is no dividing line, then how can a sound be experienced?

Exactly. It is only a thought that says, I was too focussed on thought to hear anything.
If there is no awareness of sound…would sound actually be happening?

Well, not if I think strictly from my own point of view, but there can be other people who say that it did happen.

What other people? If there is no separate self called Kuka…then why would there be other separate selves?

Sit quietly somewhere and let the dust settle for a moment and then listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside.
Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as sound.

Yesterday evening I was in an event where was lots of people in small gallery talking loudly. In hearing, just the heard, no me here or there. Same thing sometimes when just walking in the city.
When focusing on a sound, it is easy for me to not find a border between sound and hearer. But still the pull to experience it in terms of self is very strong.

I don't understand what you mean? Are you waiting for this ‘sense of separation’ to disappear? Are you waiting to become the sound without any reference to an “I” that is hearing the sound? When listening to a lovely piece of music and you are taken ‘away’ with that music, as you said, there is no ‘hearer’, there is only sound. It is a thought that comes in after the music has finished and says “I just listened to a beautiful piece of music”. Where is this "I" that just listened to a beautiful piece of music?

I want you to think of your favourite song/tune right now.
You can hear the melody right now, right?
Now my question: Do you hear this melody with your ears now?


What I would like you to do now is:-
1. Read and answer the questions to this post first, then

2. go back and reread your entire thread from the beginning to now and redo all the exercises please. Then report back to me what you found when you reread your entire thread. Take your time and really take on board (connect the dots) to what we have looked at so far.

With love, Kay