Inspired by Jed

[Merrick]

No, only what is directly experienced/observed here and now can be said to exist. And there is no "self" in that.

[Bananafish]

Thanks!

only what is directly experienced/observed here and now can be said to exist. And there is no "self" in that.

Is this a theory, or a visceral understanding?


Carefully observe your feeling here and now, and honestly (with 100% honesty!) how it feels to realize that.

[Bananafish]

Woops, typo.

honestly (with 100% honesty!) how it feels to realize that. → honestly tell (with 100% honesty!) how it feels to realize that.

[Merrick]

Hi Bananafish, I was exploring this a bit today, but today was a very hectic day. Tomorrow is a more relaxed day where I'll be heading out to relax in nature for a few hours and I want to explore it more there so I will be back with a reply tomorrow!

[Bananafish]

Hi Merrick.

No problem at all. Looking forward to
hearing from you tomorrow. :)

[Merrick]

So today ended up being hectic again so couldn't go to nature lol but I did want to share some things regarding the exploration I did manage to get in today.

only what is directly experienced/observed here and now can be said to exist. And there is no "self" in that.

Is this a theory, or a visceral understanding?

I have to say before it was purely a theory/intellectual understanding as I mentioned in my very first introductory post. It is not a complete visceral understanding yet, but it has shifted towards there more.

Carefully observe your feeling here and now, and honestly (with 100% honesty!) how it feels to realize that.

Honestly, from my half visceral/ half intellectual understanding thus far, I don't seem to have any reaction to this realization that there is no 'self'. It just seems neutral. I mean, only the "self" would feel threatened about that, but in the here and now, there is no "self" so there can not be a threatened feeling.

I also wanted to share what I experienced twice today. Once while I was working out at the gym, and another time while I was out walking my dog I had this "experience". It was very subtle and short in duration. Maybe a few seconds. It felt like I was just purely perceiving life and the whole of my awareness and everything in it, the street, gym, people, etc... was like a show I was watching. It was definitely different than my normal awareness within the illusion of the 'self'. I of course broke this experience by having a thought of "whoa check this out" lol. It was too short for me to say for sure it was a genuine shift in my awareness.

[Bananafish]

Hi! Thanks for the report. :)

Experiences may come and go, and that's an ice on the cake, so to speak.

Now, please tell me what you think it would be
when there is a "fully visceral" understanding.
What makes you say that your understanding is half intellectual?

[Merrick]

I am having expectations of what it would be like to have a fully visceral understanding. I don't necessarily have an idea of what it would be like, but I am just expecting it to be completely different than my current awareness. Because my awareness is pretty much the exact same, that is why I say that it is still half intellectual. I say it is more visceral than before because throughout this conversation and these exercises, I have come to understand the "no-self" in ways I had not realized before, but again, I am still operating under the same awareness so I feel like it must be not fully visceral.

[Bananafish]

Could you explain what you mean by "awareness"?

[Merrick]

By awareness I mean my experience. I guess I can answer the previous question better now. I expected that if I had a full visceral understanding, it would shift my experience to the point of not getting lost in thoughts centered around the "self". But I still do all the time.

[Bananafish]

Tell me what "getting lost in thoughts" means.
How is it different from thoughts just appearing and disappearing?

Also, please have a look if there is anyone there to be lost in thoughts.

[Merrick]

Hello Bananafish! Sorry for the late response, I had some things to deal with, but all is good now. Things are looking clear for the near future so I can be consistent with this! Ok so I just got back from contemplating this in nature and here is what I came up with.

Also, please have a look if there is anyone there to be lost in thoughts.

There is no "one" getting lost in thoughts as mentioned before. There is simply a "getting lost" happening but no "experiencer" experiencing it.

Tell me what "getting lost in thoughts" means.
How is it different from thoughts just appearing and disappearing?

This had me contemplating for quite a while lol. I will just write down exactly as I thought of it as I was exploring this when I was out:

Getting lost in thought is weird. I sort of took it as that it implied you can have thoughts WITHOUT GETTING LOST in them, and you can have thoughts and GET LOST in them. But whenever I become very present in the NOW to directly experience the moment as it is, there are no thoughts. All thoughts are rooted in TIME. In the NOW there are no thoughts.

So maybe whenever thoughts appear, I think of it as "getting lost" but how is it a "getting lost"? My conscious attention is simply being shifted to the thoughts that arise, just as it would shift to the dog that pops up in my field of vision. Thoughts simply appear and disappear. It's not really being lost in them, it's just being aware of what came up in my field of awareness.

I guess the issue is "I" have no say in whether or not thoughts appear or not. Unless I can maintain presence throughout the day (very difficult to do), thoughts will appear and disappear as they feel. But isn't that the problem? These thoughts that overtake my awareness is where the sense of self happens.


Anyways, as you can see, I may have realized some things (maybe what I realized isn't even correct...), but I also got very confused about a lot of things...

[Bananafish]

Hello, Merrick! No worries, and thanks for posting. :)

So yes ... still finding guesses and maybes in your post, along with a bunch of theories.

Unless I can maintain presence throughout the day (very difficult to do), thoughts will appear and disappear as they feel. But isn't that the problem? These thoughts that overtake my awareness is where the sense of self happens.

Thoughts appear and disappear, anyway.
There is no way to interfere with it.


If you expect to attain a state in which you can remain thoughtless,
please go to bed and get some sleep.

Isn't it when thoughts don't appear and disappear?



Now, please tell what "thoughts overtaking my awareness" is.

Please observe what you call "thoughts overtaking my awareness" , and
tell me what you observed. No guesses and theories here, please. :)

[Bananafish]

Oh, forgot to say that I also found some great observations in
your post. Keep up the good work!

[Merrick]

Thank you!

Now, please tell what "thoughts overtaking my awareness" is.

Please observe what you call "thoughts overtaking my awareness" , and
tell me what you observed. No guesses and theories here, please. :)

So this is where the confusion has been for me. We basically went over this earlier too right? I tried to directly experience/observe what 'thoughts overtaking my awareness' is but I can't. When I directly experience, or observe, thoughts disappear. They cannot be directly experienced, if direct experience means what is happening here and now in the present moment.

But isn't EVERYTHING, including thoughts happening in the here and now? Nothing can happen outside the NOW. Doesn't this also make 'thoughts' real? Because even "getting lost in thoughts" is happening NOW. Even if those thoughts are about the past or the future...

But thoughts are just based off of concepts and I understand that concepts can never truly define reality. Reality isn't to be defined, it just IS.

So what is this whole thing? If there is no me, "WHAT" or "WHO" is it that decides to become fully conscious to see thoughts and realize thoughts disappear under extreme present moment awareness? If there is no 'self', then why does this 'getting lost' that cannot be directly observed, happen on its own, but there is potential to become and maintain 'presence' to quiet thoughts such as meditation.

I felt like I was making good progress but now it feels like I'm more confused than ever lol.