futties

[WesleySPK]

Hello Russ,

houghts are just appearing. thought does not think other thoughts....100% sure

Nice looking :D

No, there is no 'i'. Awareness just is. Ever present.

Wonderful. So if there is no I, would you mind describing to me how things happen? How are decisions and choices made without an I? What do you have control of and what don't you?

Lift your hand up. Then lower it. Did you know exactly when it would raise, and when it would lower? Keep doing this, and watch like a hawk for the exact moment a decision is made - what happens? Is there an I controlling the hand?

Hug,
Wesley

[russ]

Hi Wesley, :)

So if there is no I, would you mind describing to me how things happen? How are decisions and choices made without an I? What do you have control of and what don't you?

THere is a body/mind/spirit complex that has sensations, thoughts, feelings, memory, imagination. No 'I' here. Decisions and choices just happen as a result of interactions within this complex. An urge to do, is an energy force arising within the body and acted on by the body. The nature of the intent arising (intensity) seems important, as do beliefs held - what is seen as safe, or risky , or unsafe, wise or unwise..... The bms is deciding and choosing within itself, with no overseeing entity of 'i controlling anything'.

Lift your hand up. Then lower it. Did you know exactly when it would raise, and when it would lower? Keep doing this, and watch like a hawk for the exact moment a decision is made - what happens? Is there an I controlling the hand?

Okay, so i watched and felt a rise of intent at your suggestion, and resulting energy. And the hand moved. Continuing with the exercise.... Thoughts came in saying lift the hand but the hand didn't follow the thoughts so much as the deeper intent to not follow thoughts to lift. In fact, the hand could move independent of the thoughts running through the mind...curiosity to see how thoughts and body movement aligned showed this. THe thoughts could be saying hold still, and meanwhile the hand is lifting and lowering, lifting and lowering, by itself, so obviously no intent to follow the thoughts in this example. THere is no 'i' in all of this controlling things, just the body/mind doing stuff together.

Hope that's not too waffley!
Hug
:D

[WesleySPK]

Hi Russ,

Bingo, great results with the hand exercise! This:

THe thoughts could be saying hold still, and meanwhile the hand is lifting and lowering, lifting and lowering, by itself

is very valuable to see.

Decisions and choices just happen as a result of interactions within this complex

Can you elaborate on this a little? Which interactions exactly? How do you know decisions and choices happen as a result of anything?

For example, lift your hand up again. What caused this? Does your hand lifting know anything about these interactions?

[WesleySPK]

Sorry, just want to rephrase the last question:

Does your hand know anything about these interactions?

[russ]

HI Wesley,

Decisions and choices just happen as a result of interactions within this complex

Can you elaborate on this a little? Which interactions exactly?

How do you know decisions and choices happen as a result of anything?

On closer looking, it seems as if the body just does various things, like stretching e.g. as a result of an inner urge, an energetic impulse, and thoughts seem to arise often in result, (ahhh, stretching mmmm) rather than as a cause. It seems in simple movements such as hand lifting, or stretching of arms there doesn't appear to be any deciding or choosing going on, just body expressing itself in movement (or stillness)....and thoughts running on, independently....no deciding happening at all.

Does your hand know anything about these interactions?

The hand just does as it does. Is it aware of beliefs held in the mind? It knows not to touch a hot stove element, so perhaps at the cellular level there is held intelligence, from sensory experience.

:)
R

[WesleySPK]

Hi Russ,

Thanks for your answers and for clarifying.

So it seems clear there is no I or me controlling and making decisions?

How about perceiving? Is there a looker, or a witness? Is there a listener, a me that's listening? Is someone feeling the sensations, or they 'your' sensations?

How is this all experienced for you right now?

Hug,
Wesley

[russ]

Hi Wesley,

So it seems clear there is no I or me controlling and making decisions?

Yes quite clear the thoughts i and me are not controlling or making decisions....

How about perceiving? Is there a looker, or a witness? Is there a listener, a me that's listening? Is someone feeling the sensations, or they 'your' sensations?

All these things you mention are just happening in the body/mind complex. Listening just happens, witnessing just happens...no me doing it. No mine experiencing it.

How is this all experienced for you right now?

A lot of looking and witnessing happening. When i find my behaviour affected by a fearful thought, i remember the hand lifting lowering exercise and how that happened independent of thought, and that encourages opening to the experience rather than contracting further....when i get a lot of 'i' thoughts arising, thoughts now follow to look at how a baby experiences.....all those urges/decisions (to reach for a toy, to study a flower...) are made with no language, no i, no me, and it quickly puts me back into seeing clearly. There is no i, me, mine just the bms complex expressing life in all its diverse ways.....so breaking through some barriers here.

I feel the clarity that you see with coming through your guidance, and it inspires :D
Big hug
R

[WesleySPK]

Hi Russ,

All these things you mention are just happening in the body/mind complex.

Where in the body/mind complex? Where are sounds heard? Take your attention to a sensation, is the location a part of the direct experience of it? Try to strip the experience down and see what's here, and what's added by thoughts.

When i find my behaviour affected by a fearful thought, i remember the hand lifting lowering exercise and how that happened independent of thought, and that encourages opening to the experience rather than contracting further

Great! Would you like to look into the fearful thoughts at all? You may notice that when you feel fear, it is usually combined with a sensation, an 'icky' sensation probably. It is the same thing as I/me, a thought whose content is being believed + a sensation. These can be 'unvelcroed' so to speak, so it's seen a sensation is just a sensation, and a thought is just a thought, and further more the thought-content is not real.

So, what is 'fear' made of?

I feel the clarity that you see with coming through your guidance, and it inspires :D

:)

Hug,
Wesley

[russ]

Hi Wesley,

Where in the body/mind complex? Where are sounds heard? Take your attention to a sensation, is the location a part of the direct experience of it? Try to strip the experience down and see what's here, and what's added by thoughts.

Okay, looking at listening happening now.....the keyboard keys being struck are heard in the eardrums,....identified in the brain registered through memory as familiar....and labelled by thoughts appearing as keys being tapped .... or looking at touch...the keys are felt by the skin sensors of the fingers....experienced as pressure on the finger tips....and labelled as ...smooth, hard....then a judgement....safe.....

so the direct experience is felt/heard in a location in the body (fingertips/ears), registered in memory, assessed as familiar or normal, then thoughts appear identifying it with language.

You may notice that when you feel fear, it is usually combined with a sensation, an 'icky' sensation probably. It is the same thing as I/me, a thought whose content is being believed + a sensation. These can be 'unvelcroed' so to speak, so it's seen a sensation is just a sensation, and a thought is just a thought, and further more the thought-content is not real.

Much thanks for this..the key is to see the truth of this in the exact moment it is all appearing....i have a life situational challenge that i face every day so plenty of opportunity to work with this and discover for myself the reality of clear seeing with regard to facing fear and liberation from its affects on the flow of love and joy through this body/mind complex.

So what is fear made of?

sensation, thought, and thought content that is believed but is not real

:D
R

[russ]

Hi Wesley, :D

Just a little more on the sensations experience...the listening, is someone listening, or is listening just happening? it is happening through the ears, processed by the brain, labelled by the thoughts, and witnessing happens, observing the listening....awareness is just there as emptiness for it to happen in. No listening "I'.

R

[WesleySPK]

Hi Russ,

Okay, looking at listening happening now.....the keyboard keys being struck are heard in the eardrums,....identified in the brain registered through memory as familiar....and labelled by thoughts appearing as keys being tapped .... or looking at touch...the keys are felt by the skin sensors of the fingers....experienced as pressure on the finger tips....and labelled as ...smooth, hard....then a judgement....safe.....

Try looking again. There is experience, than there is experience overlaid with thoughts. Pay close attention to what is actually happening, and what is added by thoughts, or what is assumed. Scientifically sound assumptions, but assumptions added by thoughts, not by the senses.

-Can you locate that exact place within the eardrums where sounds are heard, within a centimeter?
-Can a brain be found IN listening?
-Can 'finger sensors' be found IN touching?
-Are 'ears' found IN listening?
-Is there a witness to be found IN witnessing?

Let's say I find a very young child and ask them to describe to me the experience of sound. Will they tell me about a brain registering sounds, and memory? Will they tell you about skin sensors on the fingers when asked about the experience of touch? And yet, isn't their experience of touching and hearing sounds more or less the same?

What is coming from your sense information, and what is coming from thought?

awareness is just there as emptiness for it to happen in

Where, exactly?

Hug,
Wesley

[russ]

Hi Wesley,
Thankyou for the guidance to be looking, and not thinking through this inquiry... :)

Try looking again. There is experience, than there is experience overlaid with thoughts. Pay close attention to what is actually happening, and what is added by thoughts, or what is assumed. Scientifically sound assumptions, but assumptions added by thoughts, not by the senses.

What is coming from your sense information, and what is coming from thought?

Sound is heard somewhere in the ear. If a hand is placed over the ear sounds heard are muffled. take the hand away and sounds heard are clearer. so somewhere there. many types of sound can be heard at a time. some are enjoyable to experience (birdsong,)...the feeling is e.g. experienced as lightness and warmth in the body...Some sounds seem to resonate in the body vibrationally (like a bass drum beat) so heard and felt...the emotions are also part of the experience of listening....'moved to tears' by a soaring piece of music for example ..this is direct experience. ...Thoughts may judge and label certain sounds heard...(oh, tui singing, how lovely) and then create a story (which tree are they in, how many. when did i last hear a tui....) ....some sounds seem to fade if the mind is focussed on something, say reading or thinking, so the experience of listening, of hearing sounds is affected by thought intensity.

-Can you locate that exact place within the eardrums where sounds are heard, within a centimeter?
-Can a brain be found IN listening?
-Can 'finger sensors' be found IN touching?
-Are 'ears' found IN listening?
-Is there a witness to be found IN witnessing

NO, NO, NO, NO and NO.
Only the sensations of listening/touching/witnessing.

awareness is just there as emptiness for it to happen in
Where, exactly?

Awareness is not something to be sensed with the five senses. It seems a presence of nothingness, behind thoughts, like blue sky behind clouds. It is felt e.g. when something stops the thoughts for a moment or two, e.g. with a chime of a bell ring and there is only the five senses experiencing, and no thought.....

:D
R

[russ]

p.s. so it is the body experiencing through the senses, not a being....makes the 'i' story quite redundant.

[russ]

p.p.s Looking again at awareness, ...i can see a blue sky, but i can't see awareness. I say it is felt, but not with the senses. so where is it? It is an idea, a thought. Awareness happens, like witnessing happens. It's not a thing, like i described. There is space between thoughts, but it is just space between thoughts....awareness just another label.
Hug
R

[WesleySPK]

Hi Russ,

Looking again at awareness, ...i can see a blue sky, but i can't see awareness. I say it is felt, but not with the senses. so where is it? It is an idea, a thought. Awareness happens, like witnessing happens. It's not a thing, like i described. There is space between thoughts, but it is just space between thoughts....awareness just another label.

Great discovery! Bingo.

Sound is heard somewhere in the ear. If a hand is placed over the ear sounds heard are muffled. take the hand away and sounds heard are clearer.

Yes if you cover your ears and sound becomes muffled, it is safe to assume they happen in the ear yet it is still an assumption.
-Can you really experience directly sounds happening in the ear?
-Which part of the ear exactly?
-If I don't know anything about the anatomy of an ear, where do sounds take place?

Look as closely as you can at the immediate experience of hearing a sound. Close your eyes and listen for a few moments, in the experience of sounds is there really a location? Or is the location assumed from thought?

Hug,
Wesley