Would like to finish the search.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Alan,

So, it was clearly seen that there is no one/no thing that is choosing or deciding, as well as there is no one/no thing that is controlling or thinking and that it is just all happening on its own?
Yes, I clearly saw this. It is happening by itself.

Great! Doubt and confusion may appear at times even though it has been clearly seen. The key is to continue to LOOK.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

"Body" is a thought or label. We use the label "body" to define what we believe to be our separate physical selves. In acctual experience, no separate "body" can be found. There is just a collection of actual experiences.

Lovely, yes the AE of body is thought. It is only thought that overlays the raw experience of sensation with a story about the sensation being a body.

Is there really a “collection of actual experienceS”? Is THIS/experience actually divided?

If you look at a table, and let say it is the colour brown. Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’. Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with? Do this exercise with sound, taste, smell, sensation and thought as well. Let me know what you find.

Just adding that yesterday evening "I" experienced a period of complete selflessness. Everything was present, but there was no-one experiencing it.

There seems to be episodes like this that happen, however they are just that…episodes and are like a ‘confirmation’ that there is no separate self. However, “complete selflessness” is appearing in the show, but like everything in the show, these ‘experiences’ come and go and are not permanent. There is no one/no thing that is controlling what appears, so please don’t have any expectations that what needs to happen is the “complete selflessness” needs to become permanent to know that you have ‘made it’. This is so not the case.

Okay, so let’s move onto the idea of time.


There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Love, Kay

[safari]

Hello Kay,

I have been on this "quest" for the truth for many years without it reaching a conclusion. What I am finding about this inquiry with you is that it is the looking and the various exercises that are making a difference.

Is there really a “collection of actual experienceS”? Is THIS/experience actually divided?

Not a blue question but I wanted to address it anyway. As I wrote “collection of actual experiences" yesterday I had a sense of it not being quite the best description. However it seemed to be near enough, and we have to talk in words and labels.

Looking more deeply, “collection of actual experiences" is a label arising from thought. Tracing this back back to beyond labels I see that instead of a collection of discrete experiences, there is just one overall "experience" containing everything, and tracing that "experience" back further it becomes "undescribable". At that point everything just "IS".

If you look at a table, and let say it is the colour brown. Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’. Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with? Do this exercise with sound, taste, smell, sensation and thought as well. Let me know what you find.

Taking brown table, it reduces to brown, then to colour, then to "seeing" then to something indescribable that just is.

It is the same with anything else I choose to "drill" down into. Ultimately it's identity "disappears" into "just is", and that "just is" contains "everything".

"I" am whatever "just is" right now.

Just adding that yesterday evening "I" experienced a period of complete selflessness. Everything was present, but there was no-one experiencing it.

There is no one/no thing that is controlling what appears, so please don’t have any expectations that what needs to happen is the “complete selflessness” needs to become permanent to know that you have ‘made it’. This is so not the case.

Ha, it is like you read my mind! Yesterday evening I was thinking exactly that. That I just need to make this "complete selflessness" feeling permanent and I will be there!!

I can see now that I was building my own trap and was about to jump into it! I was following ideas and thoughts, which were nothing to do with whatever experience I had had. That "selfless" experience was only a memory thought by the time I started thinking other thoughts about it. That "selfless" experience is a "memory thought from yesterday". It has nothing to do with my actual experience now.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

I can't find a sense of the movement of time in actual experience. I have to have thoughts for the ideas of "time" and "movement along a line of time" to arise.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

I can't tell. It seems to be still. Very strangely, I find that activity is happening in the stillness. So I am typing these words now, and thought tells me that one word must be coming after another word, but in actual experice I feel as if I am always am typing NOW.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No, I can find no start to a moment.

How long does the ‘now’ last?

It just continues. Always "now".

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

No start and no end.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

I can't find that either. Just always "now".

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

A memory thought.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

There is no actual experience of "time", there are just thoughts abut time.

Love, Alan

[forgetmenot]

Hello Alan,

I have been on this "quest" for the truth for many years without it reaching a conclusion. What I am finding about this inquiry with you is that it is the looking and the various exercises that are making a difference.

Yes…it is the LOOKING that is the key and the exercises are there to point where and how to LOOK. Even when the realisation of no self happens, LOOKING must continue as a means to solidifying the realisation. After a while the looking becomes automatic.

Is there really a “collection of actual experienceS”? Is THIS/experience actually divided?

Not a blue question but I wanted to address it anyway. As I wrote “collection of actual experiences" yesterday I had a sense of it not being quite the best description. However it seemed to be near enough, and we have to talk in words and labels.

Yes, we have to talk in words and labels, and it is my job to see if those words and labels are just that and not beliefs that haven’t been seen through clearly yet. I would be doing you a huge disservice if I didn’t check :)

Looking more deeply, “collection of actual experiences" is a label arising from thought. Tracing this back back to beyond labels I see that instead of a collection of discrete experiences, there is just one overall "experience" containing everything, and tracing that "experience" back further it becomes "undescribable". At that point everything just "IS".

Bingo! :)

There is no experience of x as x IS experience. In other words Experience/THIS is not a tree, the tree is experience. And there is that subtle difference which is so easily overlooked! All these things will always be experience, but experience will never be one of those things. Experience is a seamless whole.

If you look at a table, and let say it is the colour brown. Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’. Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with? Do this exercise with sound, taste, smell, sensation and thought as well. Let me know what you find.

Taking brown table, it reduces to brown, then to colour, then to "seeing" then to something indescribable that just is.
It is the same with anything else I choose to "drill" down into. Ultimately it's identity "disappears" into "just is", and that "just is" contains "everything".
"I" am whatever "just is" right now.

Precisely :)

There is no one/no thing that is controlling what appears, so please don’t have any expectations that what needs to happen is the “complete selflessness” needs to become permanent to know that you have ‘made it’. This is so not the case.

Ha, it is like you read my mind! Yesterday evening I was thinking exactly that. That I just need to make this "complete selflessness" feeling permanent and I will be there!!

Experience appears as busyness, “I” identification, no identification, silence, awakened, asleep, lost, clear, sad, mad, angry, ugly ie every ‘thing';…but is never any of those things. It just simply IS exactly as it is.

I can see now that I was building my own trap and was about to jump into it! I was following ideas and thoughts, which were nothing to do with whatever experience I had had. That "selfless" experience was only a memory thought by the time I started thinking other thoughts about it. That "selfless" experience is a "memory thought from yesterday". It has nothing to do with my actual experience now.

Yep and there is no such thing as memory, where would a memory container be stored? When are those seeming memories actually appearing?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

I can't tell. It seems to be still. Very strangely, I find that activity is happening in the stillness. So I am typing these words now, and thought tells me that one word must be coming after another word, but in actual experice I feel as if I am always am typing NOW.

‘Now’ doesn’t refer to a time, nor does ‘here’ refer to a place. HereNow points to the current and evident knowledge of experience, no matter what it is appearing as.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

A memory thought.

It is simply a thought that is labelled as a ‘memory’.

Which is a nice lead in to look at the idea of ‘memory’.

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened.
That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…

What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?


Love, Kay

[safari]

Hi Kay,

So there was actually nothing to find, except what "I" really am, which is the totality of experience here/now (which sometimes includes thoughts about "I").

Yep and there is no such thing as memory, where would a memory container be stored? When are those seeming memories actually appearing?

I can find no memory store when I look. Memories are thoughts, which can arise by themselves, or which can occur as thoughts in response to some actual experience. Memory thoughts appear here/now in experience.

What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?

A memory is made of thoughts, and can include image thoughts, verbal thoughts, and thoughts about time.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

The memory thought is associated with another thought about time, about it relating to the "past". "Time" and "past" are thoughts/labels.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It can't be known exactly. A memory thought is a thought. Thoughts can be inaccurate. I have no way of knowing in actual experience if a memory thought is a representation of something that previously occurred.

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

The future thought is made of other thoughts (such as image thoughts) combined with a thought about time in relationship to the here/now. We have already seen that "time" is a thought". "Future" is a thought about the thought of "time.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

In the here/now.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Similar to a past thought. It can't be known exactly. A thought about the future is just a thought.

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

The difference is only in the associated thoughts about "time, such as "past" and "future'. In actual experience past and future thoughts are just thoughts.

Love, Alan

[forgetmenot]

Hello Alan,

So there was actually nothing to find, except what "I" really am, which is the totality of experience here/now (which sometimes includes thoughts about "I").

Yes lol! How can something that doesn’t exist be found?  It is simply thought stories overlaying AE which SEEMS to formulate the concept of their being a separate self that is living life in a world. Thought appears that ‘tell stories’ and thoughts appearance is not thought but experience itself showing up as thought. The thought “I” has no more meaning than the word supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It can't be known exactly. A memory thought is a thought. Thoughts can be inaccurate. I have no way of knowing in actual experience if a memory thought is a representation of something that previously occurred.

Yes, exactly!

This is a dream analogy of how all time is contained in an instant.
In the opening instant of a dream you find the 1st person dream character speeding along a highway towards the airport, because he is late for his holiday flight, because his wife couldn't find her passport.
Now you will notice that this is just the opening instant of the dream, yet it contains a whole "history" of being a person who is an adult and is married to a woman who left her passport behind, etc. It contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.
Do you see the analogy that is being drawn?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

In the here/now.

Yup, a future thought appears in this moment, so where in this moment is there a future?



I think we are done, Alan! Just to make sure, can you please answer the following questions in some detail. And please provide examples for question 5.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love, Kay

[safari]

Dear Kay,

I've answered your questions as best I can. Apologies if it's a long read :-)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, there is no separate self, and there has never has been one. Life will just continue by itself as it actually has being doing all along.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

I assume (I don't know definitely) that the illusion of a separate self began when I was a child and I was given a name which distingushed my person (mind and body) from the rest of the world (other people, and objects). I then began to distinguish between part of my own consciousness (Self or "I") and the rest of my mind and body. "I" came to believe that "I" was a separate part of my consciousness which controlled a mind and a body which interacted with other people and objects in the external world (beyond the limits of my my body). "I" believed that "I" perceived sensations from that world into my mind and body via my senses, that "I" thought my thoughts, and that "I' controlled my choices and actions.

So, in a nutshell, I thougt that "I" was some special part of consciousness that was separate from my thoughts, my actions, and my sensations.

Of couse this was incorrect, "I" was actually just a thought/illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

It just feels ordinary, natural, and effortless. It's so clear.

Somehow, I missed finding this despite years of looking. In retrospect, "I" had taken charge of my journey to find the truth, and "I" had therefore maintained the illusion of an "I" that was separate from the seeking.

Through the various looking exercises I saw that a separate self could not be found, and that "I" was no more than a thought. Once "I" was clearly seen to be a thought, everything just fell into place quite quickly, over the course of a few days.

The sense of "I choosing to do something" has gone. Things happen without a "I" being involved or controlling them.

A few examples: This morning, I made a cup of coffee and gave it a good stir, and it all happened by itself without an "I" being involved. Last night I went to a film and there was just the sense of experiencing a film, rather than any "I" that was experiencing.

There is a new calmness or lack of drama about life that is difficult to describe, but which is very different to before. I think it's that the illusion of "I" doesn't have to try to control anything anymore, and that is liberating. Everthing can just be allowed happen by itself.

Thoughts are easily more picked out as thoughts arising on a background of experience, and there is no longer an "I" thought that attaches itself to these thoughts.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There were a few things that tipped the balance finally.

I realised that everything was already there. Images, sounds, sensations, thoughts - they were there without me having to do anything to get them. It was all happening anyway whether or not there was an "I" involved.

In the looking exercises, not being able to find a self that was turning my hand over and back, and not being able to find a self that was choosing between a mug of coffee and a glass of water were also key points. I had assumed that "I" was responsible for actions and choices, and when I couldn't find this self, it resulted in a big shift in understanding.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

These are thoughts and labels which are used to take ownership of things which, in fact, just happen by themselves.

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

Things just happen, life just works. I can't explain why life works, it just does.

c) What are you responsible for?

I'm responsible for nothing. Experience arises in the here and now, thoughts spontaneously arise. I don't control any of it.

Strangely, being responsible for nothing isn't concerning me, as it's clearly seen now that "I" was never responsible anyway. The past "I" was just taking ownership and responsibility for what would have happened anyway.

d) Give examples from experience.

I'm typing here now, and I'm not controlling it. The words just come into my head and my fingers tap the keys. So simple.

6) Anything to add?

Not at the moment. It's become even clearer since yesterday. Everything just is.

Thank you for guiding my enquiry Kay. I am very grateful for the time you have spent taking me through this process.

Love, Alan

[safari]

Dear Kay,

In retrospect, "I" had taken charge of my journey to find the truth, and "I" had therefore maintained the illusion of an "I" that was separate from the seeking.

Just elaborating on one piece of my reply, as I didn't explain as well as I might have, and a better explanation might help others who are stuck in seeking mode.

"I" was maintaining the illusion of "I" by assuming that there was an "I" that was seeking the truth/reality or whatever, and that one day this "I" was going to find that truth/reality and see it.

"I" could never find the answer and see it, because "I" was actually just a thought arising within that whole answer.

Alan

[forgetmenot]

Dear Alan,

I realised that everything was already there. Images, sounds, sensations, thoughts - they were there without me having to do anything to get them. It was all happening anyway whether or not there was an "I" involved.

Absolutely beautiful! Thank you so much for your indepth replies, your post was an absolute pleasure to read and it was so very clear.

I am going to ask some other guides to have a read of your thread to make sure I have covered everything. This may take a couple of days and I will get back to you when they respond.

I wish you and yours a richly heart-full Christmas.

With love....Kay
xx

[safari]

Dear Kay,

I am going to ask some other guides to have a read of your thread to make sure I have covered everything. This may take a couple of days and I will get back to you when they respond.

That's fine.

I wish you and yours a richly heart-full Christmas.

Thank you. I wish you and yours a richly heart-full Christmas too.

With love and gratitude, Alan

[forgetmenot]

Hello Alan,

I hope you had a lovely Christmas break with your family and friends.

Congratulations, and welcome through the Gateless Gate. There are no further questions for you. It has been an absolute pleasure to walk with you and point the way. Thank you for being so open and willing to LOOK!

Keep an eye out for an email notification from the forum about a PM (private message) inviting you to join our Aftercare group. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your name will change from green to blue, which indicates that you have 'gated'.

You can contact me at any time, if you have any questions etc, via the forums PM system, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Love, Kay

[safari]

Hello Kay,

Yes, I had a lovely Christmas and I hope you did too.

Congratulations, and welcome through the Gateless Gate. There are no further questions for you. It has been an absolute pleasure to walk with you and point the way. Thank you for being so open and willing to LOOK!

Thank you once more for guiding me. I will get in touch with you if I have anything further to ask. At the moment everything is good.

Love, Alan