Beyond the ceiling

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

Thank you for your answers.

I'll get to your second round of questions soon!

Okay, I'll wait.

With love,
C

[Eauvive]

Good morning Canfora,

I hope you are well.

There was only one question left, actually:

Do you believe every thought that pops up? Or there are thoughts that you know aren't accurate, aren't real?

No! I don't believe every thought that pops up, and lots of them aren't accurate, so, well, you got me there.

It's the thinking that creates the illusion and we aren't trying to change the thinking, so you have to use other tool, the senses.

This strikes me enormously this morning. I'd read it but not let it in. I realise that what I've been doing so far is precisely trying to change the thinking with the help of ... thoughts. This was bound to leave me chasing after my tail, wasn't it? Brilliant. I feel relieved.

However, when using the senses, it's difficult not to interpret instantly. I suppose that if we're not trying to change the thinking, it's not about inhibiting the interpretation either. One way I see around the usual habits is to look out for the flow rather than specific separated objects. Even including thoughts and emotions as part of the flow and surrendering to the way they are all intertwined, "me" having nothing to do with it.

I find it increasingly easy to look at life that way. Instantly, a great weight falls off, maybe the weight of being someone according to certain rules and aspirations and duties. It's like the tale about me is gone and I am free to be completely here and now. I don't need to control my environment so much. There is still a me, though! but it's not pre-defined. It's new somehow. Also vague and thinner, like a smoky ghost.

The witness remains...

Thank you Canfora. I am travelling far tomorrow, and will reconnect with the conversation as soon as possible.

I hope you keep warm, wherever you are.

Love,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive, good morning.

This strikes me enormously this morning. I'd read it but not let it in. I realise that what I've been doing so far is precisely trying to change the thinking with the help of ... thoughts. This was bound to leave me chasing after my tail, wasn't it? Brilliant. I feel relieved.

Yes!

However, when using the senses, it's difficult not to interpret instantly. I suppose that if we're not trying to change the thinking, it's not about inhibiting the interpretation either.

Yes.

One way I see around the usual habits is to look out for the flow rather than specific separated objects. Even including thoughts and emotions as part of the flow and surrendering to the way they are all intertwined, "me" having nothing to do with it.

Are you talking about making connections, linking this to that? Is this done with thinking also?

Seeing the intertwinement in life can give us some useful perspectives and it's a nice capacity but it mainly relies on assumptions about what is happening. Example: it's a wind day here and I feel irritated. So, it's the wind that is causing the irritation. This is a assumption only. Hmm... would you agree?

What do you mean by "to look out for the flow"?

I find it increasingly easy to look at life that way. Instantly, a great weight falls off, maybe the weight of being someone according to certain rules and aspirations and duties. It's like the tale about me is gone and I am free to be completely here and now. I don't need to control my environment so much. There is still a me, though! but it's not pre-defined. It's new somehow. Also vague and thinner, like a smoky ghost.

How do you now there is still a me? Can you have a look and describe this me?
Try doing this like if I'm asking you to describe your favorite cup. Keep it simple. Look at what you are saying is you and describe it the best you can.

Thank you Canfora. I am travelling far tomorrow, and will reconnect with the conversation as soon as possible.

Okay, thank you for letting me know.

I hope you keep warm, wherever you are.

I'm in Portugal. A storm is passing by at the time being - the wind is blowing dramatically! - but we have mild winters. Where are you?

Take care,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

Portugal, wow! I'm in Canada, it's freezing... I love that cold.

One way I see around the usual habits is to look out for the flow rather than specific separated objects. Even including thoughts and emotions as part of the flow and surrendering to the way they are all intertwined, "me" having nothing to do with it.

Are you talking about making connections, linking this to that? Is this done with thinking also?

What do you mean by "to look out for the flow"?

No, it's not thinking, it's just observing what is in my field of vision/sensation/emotion and noticing how it comes and goes in a sort of complex dance. A bit like watching a stream and seeing water, seaweeds, sand, etc moving together. I don't claim any part of it as 'mine'. They just are.

There is still a me, though! but it's not pre-defined. It's new somehow. Also vague and thinner, like a smoky ghost.

How do you now there is still a me? Can you have a look and describe this me?

That made me laugh. The only thing I could see was an EFFORT. The effort of keeping it all together in a coherent way. 'Me' is a tension! Wow. I find that really funny.

At some point in my travels I suddenly saw very clearly that we're not putting in question the fact that there are thoughts, memories, beliefs, etc. We're putting into question the existence of a glue that holds that stuff in one whole. There is no such glue, that's very obvious now.

I'm extremely grateful for this dialogue.

Take care,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

Portugal, wow! I'm in Canada, it's freezing... I love that cold.

Brrr... :)

No, it's not thinking, it's just observing what is in my field of vision/sensation/emotion and noticing how it comes and goes in a sort of complex dance. A bit like watching a stream and seeing water, seaweeds, sand, etc moving together. I don't claim any part of it as 'mine'. They just are.

Can you describe what you can observe right now? Just so that I make sure we mean the same thing when we talk about observing.

we're not putting in question the fact that there are thoughts, memories, beliefs, etc.

Yes.

That made me laugh. The only thing I could see was an EFFORT. The effort of keeping it all together in a coherent way. 'Me' is a tension! Wow. I find that really funny.

Yes, we can say that.

We're putting into question the existence of a glue that holds that stuff in one whole. There is no such glue, that's very obvious now.

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying above. Can you say more and give some practical examples please?

I'm extremely grateful for this dialogue.

Me too.

Take care,
C

[Eauvive]

Can you describe what you can observe right now? Just so that I make sure we mean the same thing when we talk about observing.

The old fridge makes noise. The room is dark, but there's a light in the passageway and a small christmas tree. There is the sensation of tiredness and a bit of hunger. Confused thoughts, some sadness, the sound of cars in the street, the computer very bright. All that together forms an atmosphere that I observe without having created any of it and without owning any of it. It is just a unique melting pot of sensations/thoughts/emotions. The hands typing and the mind telling the words to type seem detached from a will.

We're putting into question the existence of a glue that holds that stuff in one whole. There is no such glue, that's very obvious now.

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying above. Can you say more and give some practical examples please?

Ok. Let's say that all the memories/thoughts/situations are like thousands of fish swimming in the sea, and we try to catch them all together in an imaginary net, to pretend they have one coherent shape called 'me' that can be controlled, known, talked about, manipulated. Then the net becomes the centre of attention and we forget it has been created by the imagination.

A practical example. two days ago I had a very difficult meal with a friend. Normally, I would have felt angry and trapped, and I would have fought to regain my evening. But I just sat there noticing there was a difficult situation, there was a lot of "not liking it" going on, and maybe something needed to be said to exit from it, but there was not the sense that 'my' evening was stolen, that 'I' should refuse that sort of conversation, that the friend was not treating 'me' well, etc. It was like something had disolved -- an image of me, of what I do, of what I want and don't want. All I could see was one manifestation of life among other possibilities.

I don't know if that's helpful. Maybe you meant something else when you asked for an example? I'm happy to come back on that if needed.

Take good care,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

The old fridge makes noise. The room is dark, but there's a light in the passageway and a small christmas tree. There is the sensation of tiredness and a bit of hunger. Confused thoughts, some sadness, the sound of cars in the street, the computer very bright. All that together forms an atmosphere that I observe without having created any of it and without owning any of it. It is just a unique melting pot of sensations/thoughts/emotions. The hands typing and the mind telling the words to type seem detached from a will.

What is observing all this? Can you find a observer if you look for it?

Ok. Let's say that all the memories/thoughts/situations are like thousands of fish swimming in the sea, and we try to catch them all together in an imaginary net, to pretend they have one coherent shape called 'me' that can be controlled, known, talked about, manipulated. Then the net becomes the centre of attention and we forget it has been created by the imagination.

What is the "we" you talk about? What forgets?

Have a look. Can you see the thing(s), the subject(s), these words imply must exist?

Forget the why's and how's. Look. Do you see a you?

Take care,
C

[Eauvive]

Hello dear Canfora,

hope the sun shines bright and the wind is kind.

What is observing all this? Can you find a observer if you look for it?

No observer, no. No entity. But there is consciousness. There is a presence quietly sensing, noticing.

Then the net becomes the centre of attention and we forget it has been created by the imagination.

What is the "we" you talk about? What forgets?

It was meant as a "we, human beings". That's really interesting, it was a totally absurd statement: "We" forget that "we" don't exist.
The imaginary self builds itself in the first place (a self-made man!) and then works at consolidating the mirage, but truly there's nothing to support that. It's like a mistaken belief attracts lots and lots of other beliefs and it ends up feeling true.

Have a look. Can you see the thing(s), the subject(s), these words imply must exist?

No. I see the veil of the usual default position ('I am a subject'). It seems to absorb all the info, analyse it and make decisions. But it's flimsy, it's not tangible, just a concept. (A strong concept!!)

Forget the why's and how's. Look. Do you see a you?

Still difficult, as you may have noticed, to do without the why's and how's. Are those questions typically powered by a 'me' centered mind?

All wishes,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

Are those questions typically powered by a 'me' centered mind?

Which 'me' centered mind? Can you find such a thing if you look for it? :)

So, what do you see? What is being experienced? Can you describe what is happening now that you are aware of? What is happening that is not a story?

Take care,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

this is just to say that our conversation is very close to my heart, but I'm struggling to find the right time to answer. Christmas is always a very hectic family visit.

Back very soon,

take good care,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

this is just to say that our conversation is very close to my heart, but I'm struggling to find the right time to answer. Christmas is always a very hectic family visit.

I agree alheartdelly that this season is hectic!
Dont' worry, I'll wait, thank you for letting me know you need some time off.

Happy Holidays,
C

[Canfora]

It seems I invented a word! By alheartdelly I mean with all my heart...

[Eauvive]

Lovely new word.

Thanks for understanding. Back soon.

Eau vive

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

we just came out of the vortex! Back home.

These are the questions you left me with.

Are those questions typically powered by a 'me' centered mind?

Which 'me' centered mind? Can you find such a thing if you look for it? :)

No. There's just a series of thoughts and a strong thought pattern leading back to the idea of 'me'.

So, what do you see? What is being experienced? Can you describe what is happening now that you are aware of? What is happening that is not a story?

Now, there is this silent bedroom. The walls are blue. It's a bit cold tonight. There's a sore throat... tiredness. It's easy to see it all without automatically attaching stories to every element of it. (Like: I love my bedroom, it's too late, I should be in bed, I caught a virus on the plane as always.)

During the holiday, there was not much time to write to you, but I brought your questions around and every situation was an occasion to see things better. It's clear now that there is no such thing as the self. It's clear that "self" is a cumbersome concept, and that all sorts of other concepts trail behind it (I should do this, I'm a person who reacts like that, I want this, I'm fed up with that......). Life is much lighter without cumbersome "self", and also much richer; there is this feeling of utter freedom at times, or gratitude towards life. It's more creative, more spacious, it manifests in lots of availability, more patience, less stress.

To be really honest, this isn't a huge shift; it's more like something I already knew just sank in and is now dissolving old patterns. But then again, there is still a very strong habit of identifying with feelings, of reacting to events, of trying to fit in a coherent tale. There is still that attraction for things that relate to 'me'. I notice it, though, and it is possible to step back and dissolve again the bond with those feelings/reactions/tale/attraction. (I say "I notice it" because the sentence needs a pronoun. "It is being spontaneously noticed", let, say -- a bit heavy.)

How come there is a need to remember to reposition the seeing? I read "once it is seen it can't be unseen". Here, it feels like it needs to be seen again and again. (Although it gets easier and easier.)

Is that just part of the erosion process?

Thank you Canfora. Happy New Year!

Eau Vive.

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

How come there is a need to remember to reposition the seeing? I read "once it is seen it can't be unseen". Here, it feels like it needs to be seen again and again. (Although it gets easier and easier.)

I remember that I've also spent some time looking and looking (maybe some months) just to be sure :)
Regarding "once it is seen it can't be unseen", what happens every time you look? Can you always see that a separate self isn't here when you look? Or is it possible to unseen this seeing?

Is that just part of the erosion process?

Yes. Old habits (may) take time to be seen through. This is a kind of a beginning, with no end in sight.

To be really honest, this isn't a huge shift; it's more like something I already knew just sank in and is now dissolving old patterns. But then again, there is still a very strong habit of identifying with feelings, of reacting to events, of trying to fit in a coherent tale. There is still that attraction for things that relate to 'me'. I notice it, though, and it is possible to step back and dissolve again the bond with those feelings/reactions/tale/attraction. (I say "I notice it" because the sentence needs a pronoun. "It is being spontaneously noticed", let, say -- a bit heavy.)

I wonder if you expect to not feel attraction for things that relate to you? Why wouldn't you feel that?
What do you mean by this: "it is possible to step back and dissolve again the bond with those feelings/reactions/tale/attraction"? Why are you doing this?

Happy New Year!

C