Looking deeper

[Alberto]

Hi Canfora,

Just saw your message for some reason it didn't notify me through email as usual or appear on my notifications.
Alright then, I understand this season has people running around. Have fun decorating the tree.

Speak soon.

[Canfora]

Hi Mario!

I completely forgot about writing a post to you yesterday. Sorry!

But there is still a difficulty in seeing others as others and being annoyed by, irritated, attracted, intimidated, etc. So what I understand is that if "I" would truly dissolve then there would be no other.

Wouldn't it be great if seeing the illusion would dissolve this kind of stuff? I still get irritate with other people several times a day. The difference is that I don't expect things to be different than they are or this apparent me to be different than it is. I still try to improve my way of dealing with what life brings my way, because it seems to be the right thing to do. There are practices and perspectives that seem to be helpful.

"Others" is a little out of the scope of this inquiry and even if you clearly see there is no "others" that specific illusion is very unlikely to puff... go away.

The illusions of "me" and "others" are very helpful to navigate daily life. Imagine that they drop completely. It is very possible that you wouldn't be capable of living a normal life and interact with other people like you do now.

What would you say are the main reasons why you feel separate from others?

Take care,
C

[Alberto]

Hi Canfora,

No worries, lifes happening... but I was wondering He he,

What would you say are the main reasons why you feel separate from others?

It's simple things, like going into an elevator, or being in a room alone with someone else or crossing on the street and not making eye contact that sort of thing.
Knowing in my heart that the seeing that is going on here is the exact same seeing happening in the other and not having the capacity to merge like you said "puff" but rather feeling an awkwardness or looking away or fidgeting with my phone, but again, get it, that's not the point here, but rather allowing what ever arises in the moment to be since it couldn't be otherwise, if awkwardness is there that's what's there and if connection is there then thats whats there and nobody is in control.


Warm regards,

[Canfora]

Hi Mario,

Yes. "Others" is a tricky illusion and, like the other illusions, even when it is seen, it keeps popping up.

nobody is in control.

Can you write a little more about this? How do you know this is true? What do you see that makes you say there is nobody in control? Can you give me some examples of what is being seen right now regarding the absence of a controller please?

Take care,
C

[Alberto]

Hi Canfora,

Can you write a little more about this? How do you know this is true? What do you see that makes you say there is nobody in control?

What is being seen is that things are just happening on their own even when you "seem" to have a choice what is doing the choosing? Choosing just happens and there is no turning back because there is only NOW, however the mind might disapprove or self blame etc. and if apparently you do decide to change your choice because you can, that is just happening as well no one is really doing the choosing, it's kind of like the arm experiment even though you seem to be making a choice (taking control of any given situation) it seems to me this vehicle is just acting out of, habit, condition, chemistry, learned behaviour or just being run by the collective consciousness, and of course since we feel like we are making these choices we either feel good about them or bad and the praise or self criticize others or one self, and attribute these observations to ourselves and what define us. Basically the mind takes any experience that is happening and appropriates it and when it wants to control a situation and things turn out in alignment with it's intention it feels good about itself and says "I knew it" or "See I told you" and it gives an illusion of being in control and when things don't turn out it says " I should have planned better" or How didn't I see that coming" etc but the mechanism is just working about of stimulus and response.

Can you give me some examples of what is being seen right now regarding the absence of a controller please?

Typing, correcting, looking at the screen, sniffing, planning the afternoon, introspection, more typing, looking around, sitting still, looking at the time.

Take care, talk soon

[Canfora]

Hi Mario,

Thank you for your answer!

Basically the mind takes any experience that is happening and appropriates it and when it wants to control a situation and things turn out in alignment with it's intention it feels good about itself

It seems you are trusting that mind can be a reliable reason why things happen as they happen.

So, what is this mind you are talking about made of in your immediate experience? Have a look. Can you find a real thing that is this mind?

What do you think this mind can do? What do you think thoughts can do? Can a thought appropriate something? Can a thought think a thought? Can a thought control experience? The thought "banana" for example... what can it do?

Try thinking yourself into better health, greater intelligence or a improved self esteem. Can you do that? You can also try the opposite, thinking yourself into worst health, lower intelligence or a lack of self esteem. Can you do that?

Try thinking that you are not feeling hungry when you are famished or that you don't have to go to the bathroom when you do. Does it work?

If you think about non duality, does what surround you change? Can this very specific way of thinking shape what is here now?

Is this mind/are thoughts separate from what is going on? Can you find boundaries between thoughts and perception? Thoughts seem to divide reality into a separate "puzzle" of many different things. Is the separation real outside "thought-land"?

Take care,
C

[Alberto]

Hello Canfora,

Perhaps what I meant is that, the mind as an apparent separate entity it takes any experience in life, any happening and attributes it to it self in order to appear as though it is real and exists therefore the I AM, In my observation it seems that the reason there is an I is because of the mind as an interpreter of the worlds stimulus and through this cognitive process it sees itself to be an individual with a body and all its physical function and capabilities and from birth on starts weaving a storyline attributed to itself through the use of language.
I don't think the mind has any part in why things happen as they happen they would happen any way with out its need to interpret or appropriate, it's funny because as I'm writing this down I notice that there is a defensiveness rising up in it's defense that the mind is needed to achieve things, I pause in my writing and feel confused.
Any how I will start answering the questions, they are very interesting and provocative. There seems to be a feeling that there is something that I'm trying to prove or justify and it doesn't feel right and fully authentic as my answers almost are accompanied with a subtle tension and rushed sense at times, perhaps because I'm a parent and I feel my time is limited.

what is this mind you are talking about made of in your immediate experience? Have a look. Can you find a real thing that is this mind?

This mind I am talking about is the blah, blah, blahing that is continuously going on, it seems to be in the head but I recall the exercise we did a couple of replies back, and that it isn't localizable, and truly it isn't, the mind seems to be wherever attention is drawn. Never the less there is noise filtered and given sense through language and takes shape through imagery, recollection of memory and projections of desired states through this apparent and existing mind. Is it real? Well... It definitely likes to make itself obvious. And since I treat it as an IT, it feels and is sensed as real. It's almost as though there is a clear mind a transparent quite silent mind (I) in which the world reflects has no grasp whatsoever but is continuously witnessing and simply reflects existence on itself as consciousness and then there is the noisy mind like shaken waters (I am blah blah blah) , rowdy disturbed mind full of content trying to explain, reason, accumulate, assert itself in the world etc.

What do you think this mind can do? What do you think thoughts can do? Can a thought appropriate something? Can a thought think a thought? Can a thought control experience?

A thought, in and of itself can't do anything. Like you observe in meditation thoughts arise and fall, but some thoughts seem to have stronger momentums or grooves in the mind and loop more frequently and in states of non vigilance they seem to drive the body vehicle to fulfill it's purpose especially negative addictive ones, almost like possessive entities that need a body in order to fulfill their desires.
A thought can appropriate something but only in the level of the mind never externally even though it tries but obviously since it is subject to the laws of nature and change all it can do is collects experiences to add to it's storyline.
Thoughts interpret the world and create good or bad experiences according to its filter and for what purpose, it seems in order to survive to add to the story of itself.
Can a thought think a thought? Interesting all these questions really got me pushing my limits. It seems it can, but as a try it almost seems impossible since the thought I'm trying to think of to think is already thought of before I can even think of it.

The thought "banana" for example... what can it do?

Ha ha! Nothing it seems other than paint imagery in the mind.

I hope I'm answering along the right lines and not over intellectualising it, I'm writing from what comes up in the moment, but feel like it isn't going deep enough and a lot more is being said for something that should be simpler, lately I feel uncomfortable with language as soon as I try to describe this I find myself getting lost in language at times and that it contaminates the pure experiencing.

But never the less let's continue.

Try thinking that you are not feeling hungry when you are famished or that you don't have to go to the bathroom when you do. Does it work?

Not really although I've heard arguments that would say other wise, you know "mind over matter"

If you think about non duality, does what surround you change? Can this very specific way of thinking shape what is here now?

No, what is here now is here now no matter what you may want to think about it. Now is now no needed concepts are needed in order to perceive it.

Is this mind/are thoughts separate from what is going on?

Thoughts are not separate from what is going on, it's just another happening.

Can you find boundaries between thoughts and perception?

No, not really they just seem to fade or pan in to each other.

Thoughts seem to divide reality into a separate "puzzle" of many different things. Is the separation real outside "thought-land"?

No, there is no boundries outside though land it just seems that way because of what we have been taught similar to the imaginary lines that divide nations land is just land in the end the divisions are mind made.

In appreciation

[Canfora]

Hi Mario!

I've enjoyed reading your answers. There is some speculation appearing here and there but noting caught my attention as something that should be looked at.

In your introduction you wrote:

I notice how I still gravitate towards my identification with the body and my feelings and opinions about life bringing about anxiousness and suffering or the belief of someone suffering, I feel there is deeper questioning that must happen here so that I don't fool myself in believing that "I got it" through intellectual knowledge but rather through true experience.

Would you say that you are experiencing the absence of a separate self? Or does it still feel like a intellectual knowledge?

Would you say that social roles - like being a parent - prove the existence of a separate you?

Take care,
C

[Alberto]

Hello Canfora,
I can't say the movement of identifying with the feelings and body has entirely dropped, it does happen from time to time but it is seen for that, and there is no attachment to the idea, the seeing is there and there is only what the present moment has to offer, and all experience is happening on the canvas of awareness without being touched or influenced in any way. I could say the grip has definitely lessened. I still feel there are layers of habitual patterns that play out off course but the idea that seeing would eradicate them is gone, I am ok with What Is, and have dropped significantly the ideas of a future improved self.

Would you say that you are experiencing the absence of a separate self? Or does it still feel like a intellectual knowledge?

When I stop and look I can't find evidence of a separate self there is only THIS vibrant and alive, non-localizable and ever present.

Would you say that social roles - like being a parent - prove the existence of a separate you?

In no way, how could it be that way, children and others are part of the movement of life with no difference and distinction to anything else.

Speak soon

[Canfora]

Hi Mario,

Would you say you are 100% sure the separate self is an illusion or do you have doubts and/or unmet expectations?

all experience is happening on the canvas of awareness

Do you think you are this awareness? Or inside it? Is awareness something findable? Is awareness personal?

Take care,
C

[Alberto]

Hello Canfora,

Would you say you are 100% sure the separate self is an illusion or do you have doubts and/or unmet expectations?

Yes! I feel absolutely sure the separate self is an illusion there is no doubt about it, the mind has arguments about it or doesn't understand what is happening but it is clear that it is all happening on the surface of being.
Interestingly tendencies, habits and conditionings are rising more frequently and intensely it seems and gravitate towards selfing but it just makes it more obvious that it is illusory and has no power in the seeing.

Do you think you are this awareness? Or inside it? Is awareness something findable? Is awareness personal?

It's a play of words, but as best that I can describe it is, awareness seems to be all there is and I AM seems to be the initial sprout of consciousness within awareness. How could I possibly be inside awareness if awareness is all there is in other words I am awareness always was and always will be it isn't something findable as it was never lost it isn't personal the awareness that looks through these eyes is the same awareness that looks through anybody else's eyes there is no personal, personal is the illusion.

Speak soon and thank you
With love

[Canfora]

Hi Mario,

Wonderful! Let's check if we've missed something. Here are LU final standard questions. You don't need to answer them all at once. Remember to speak from your own experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Take care,
C

[Canfora]

I forgot to say that those are the first 3 questions. They are 6.

[Alberto]

Hello Canfora,

I am quite busy these days and I want to take my time to answer these without rushing so you won't be hearing from me in few of days.

In apreciation

[Canfora]

Hi Mario,

Waiting some time to see how things unfold is always a good idea. Let me know if something comes up that needs to be looked at. I look forward to your answers.

Take care,
C