Where to look next

[Matthew]

Very well...

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

[Electabuzz11]

There is no separate self, here, there or anywhere. All aspects of experience are coming from nowhere, going nowhere. Sensations are arising, awareness is awarenessing, feelings are feeling, the body moves. Thoughts are thinking. There is no experiencer, only the process of experiencing itself. There is nobody to identify with any aspect of experience, only identification itself. The manager, the boss, the center are all a mirage.

The "I" does not exist in reality, it never has. "I" or "me" or "self" can only exist as a story - construct, it persists because of assumptions and belief. There never was an "I" or a "self". This was a simple mistake, made repeatedly because there was no examination into the reality of this concept.

[Matthew]

Beautiful!



Please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

[Electabuzz11]

The illusion of the separate self begins with language. We have words for "I', "me", "myself" because they are useful in conversation. Most cultures also spread the notion that everyone is an individual with with an essential separate nature. For this person, the sense of a separate self evolved around a grasping for positive emotions, aversion to negative states, identification with certain modes of being and later also grasping to particular states of consciousness / awareness. The belief that there was an "I' residing in a particular state of consciousness, in spite of never finding it. The hope that the thing I had previously identified was the real "Me". The hope that believing in that "me" would guard against suffering, make me lovable, make me special, make me spiritual, ensure future happiness.

How it works is through hope, hope that somehow the points of attachment in this world (including internal states) are actually the thing that can be called "I". Hope that there is or are certain thing(s) in particular which are not just unique but separate from other people, from the world. These can be positive or negative, identification happens also around the fears and aversions, traumas, injuries.

"This is my specialness, it's what makes 'me' 'me' "
"This is my suffering, it's unique to me, look how much I have suffered"
"These are my accomplishments, I am so spiritual, I have attained so much, acknowledge me"


The illusion of separate self is a construct that requires a false assumption to be continually bought into. When there is belief in the illusion of separate self, many different attachments and strategies are cycling to propagate this belief. Identification with various levels of existence. This belief in the separateness, in the kernel-like nature of personhood is the catalyst for the evolution of attachments and suffering. When the belief of separateness is really examined and seen through, sufferings and triggers putter out like a spinning top losing momentum, or a skipping rock falling into the pond. Life flows, not coming from anywhere and particular and not going to anyone or anywhere in particular either. Spaciousness is unavoidable.

[Matthew]

Beautiful!

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please also report from the past few days.

[Electabuzz11]

The past three days have been intense. Tuesday began with a long period of confusion and dissociation. Not really wanting to do anything, apathy, doubt about the self-enquiry process. That evening something shifted, the lack of separation between self and others became abundantly clear, and a period of euphoria and expansion followed for about 24 hours.

Since there was grasping for a particular kind of transformation - - blissful, trippy, peaceful, etc. there has also been doubt about really "seeing" . Doubt is seen as another impersonal process amongst many. Conditioning does not disappear overnight. Anxieties, disregulations, fears, awkwardness, attachments do not cease all of a sudden in their cycling. The desire to cease these processes is also coming from nowhere. . . There is no rush to eliminate conditioning.

Looking continues. 'Seeking' not so much.

[Matthew]

Since there was grasping for a particular kind of transformation - - blissful, trippy, peaceful, etc. there has also been doubt about really "seeing"

These are expectations created by comparison.
Comparison to what you've read others might or might not have experienced.
Can you drop all this comaprison an all those expectations for the last apparent meters?
Only look at how things are unfolding in direct experience?

There is no rush to eliminate conditioning.

That's right. Let things fall into place on their own accord.

Anxieties, disregulations, fears, awkwardness, attachments

Of course, there is a huge story about all those things.
But when looking at actual experience. Which means: When looking at things as they are, when seeing things as they are:

Conditioning does not disappear overnight.

What is conditioned?

Anxieties

Do these anxieties belong to something or someone?
What is anxious?

attachments

So there is a story about remaining attachments.
Attachment can only truly exist if there is a thing or a one, which is attached.
Does such a thing or such a one exist?
What is attached?

[Electabuzz11]

Dropping all comparison. Just looking at how things are unfolding in direct experience.

In reality, in direct experience, there is nothing that is actually conditioned.

Anxieties do not belong to anybody or anything. There is nobody who is anxious.

Yes. There is story about the attachments.

Is there a one who is attached? No. Is there a one to whom stories belong? No.

[Matthew]

there is nothing that is actually conditioned

This is absolutely true.

Conditioning does not disappear overnight

And this is relatively true.
This is how the story can play out for a while after the belief in a separate self has disappeared.
All beliefs that had their root in the belief in a separate self will fall away gradually.
It is like the root of a tree was cut. And now the tree of beliefs will start to disintegrate.

Looking continues. 'Seeking' not so much.

Looking may continue, of course! It happens by itself from time to time.

But seeking?
What is supposed to be found through seeking?
What is seeking what?

[Electabuzz11]

Haha. Yes . When I said "not so much", I meant, there is nobody to seek anymore. There is nothingness, there is no separation, no here or there. What would be sought? Who would seek?

[Matthew]

Alrighty :-)


What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

[Electabuzz11]

What pushed me over was looking at "conditioning" and "attachment". Both are concepts, and while they might symbolize some approximate process in reality, there is nobody in reality that could be conditioned or attached.

In addition to looking through language, looking in a non-verbal way was clarifying.

Also, dropping concepts about what liberation would look like was necessary. Conceptual understanding was acting as a blockage of sorts.

Much gratitude. Thank you.

[Matthew]

So these are likely the last two questions of this conversation.
Looking forward to your reply!



Please describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please also give examples from experience.


Is there anything to add?

[Electabuzz11]

Please describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please also give examples from experience.

Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are all illusions that vanish once the illusion of a separate self is seen through.

In making a 'decision' or a 'choice', options are weighed, scenarios are considered and a 'choice' is made. But these words imply there is an entity or a thing that says "yes" to this and "no" to that. There is no such entity. There is no singular separateness out of which such a decision could arise. So, in reality, 'choices' are just a natural flowing out of the perception of reality. A 'choice' need not be, cannot be made -- it happens on its own. To believe that one has made a choice is to believe there is a one that could make such a choice.

This happened tonight. Was leaving the beach, wondering whether to eat something before heading up the hill to bed. Nobody decided. There was just listening to the body, moving in the direction of the store, etc.

Intention is a funny one, a word beloved by people in this spiritual community. Who could create an such an intention? If the intention is to 'be loving', for example, who is the one that is to be loving? And if that isn't a part of experience, who would create it? The word "intention" implies a dualistic view, that there's something out there, and the "I" in here is choosing to create some kind of environment or attitude to shift the relationship to the thing. Even if the thing is in here. So, intention is one of those things that disappears when it is seen that there isn't a separation between what's going on "out there" and "in here". Even if the "out there" is "in here". Yes, there is access to different states of being, nothing is excluded. But the idea of having an intention is not rooted in reality. Who would have it?

Free will is a total illusion. Who would exercise it? From which point would it arise? And, if there's no answer to this, then is it really the free will we want? The body, the brain, the environment are all in a state of chaos and order. Free will is a fiction on multiple levels.

Nothing, nobody makes things happen. Things happen. People, nature, existence is in a constant state of happening. There is nobody responsible for anything. This is not the same as a lack of consequences. I cannot be responsible for anything because there isn't some thing or entity called "I".

Is there anything to add?

Doubt arises occasionally. There's nobody behind it, just an expectation of a particular state, as mentioned before. When the expectation is seen, the doubt disappears.

There is a strong sense of disconnection from a previous constructed existence / personality. Life feels fresh, anew, without agenda. Life experiences, relationships, the environment inspire a sense of awe.

[Matthew]

Beautiful!
I will show our conversation to the other guides and see whether they would like to highlight something.
I'll be in touch!