Ending the constant searching

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince,

well, another partly sleepless night and I checked the forum and saw you had written which always makes me happy so i am writing you back early today . Thanks for your response as always. I learned a lot.

Oh frustration, i know you well. Before awakening, frustration as a pre-cursor to anger was the main theme in Vince's life. Always several times each day it would happen.
Now, when frustration arises (maybe a couple of times a week) it is usually seen and laughed at pretty quickly. It (almost) never reaches an anger state any more.

It is interesting to me to hear that you had a similarity in this area and now anger dissolves so spontaneously, i love how you use your humor and can even imagine laughing, i find that fascinating. I have a very silly childlike side which comes out most with my younger son who is 13 and my dog. I always feel happier after i am silly. My younger son was laughing at me because he says i can get so angry and then be fine and happy , so maybe i am making some progress here lol.

I like your reminder about recognizing its past, I️ am going to remind myself of that, which is related to something you brought up the other day, that whatever has already happened,Is already past , can’t be changed, so what’s the point ? No sense crying over spilt milk. Some things it is obviously easier with. Welcoming it as a lesson is hard, but i can, it’s just all these little things throughout the day that arise , let me give you totally mundane silly examples. A lot of them have to do with noise , I’m concentrating and my son is playing his guitar, I’m in room being at peace and the tv comes on so loud, family talking loud, they all talk sooooo loud, I’m trying to concentrate on computer, noise around, keep getting disturbed, can’t finish a task without being pulled into another. I get that it’s all life, but frustration arises which could lead to anger, just short bouts of it,but frequently, then an overall flustered feeling and by the end of the day i can be frazzled. I️ feel scattered. It’s hard in these quick moments to remind myself that the frustration is in the past like what you are saying and welcome it as a lesson

Instead of it being a dissociation, we can simply become an interested witness. It will have the same effect of short circuiting the emotional 'suck in'.

yes , related to above, i can see it happening and still most times get sucked in. For the little things. I think these instant emotions are not always stories, like maybe the way it is is that annoyance and anger and frustration and the like just pop up like thoughts and everything else but when I️ let them upset me, and resist then the story is created. , the resistance causes a story. Is that right?

today was a good example of recognizing the expressing of the content of a story, and it’s still happened, didn’t change ..

That is a bit surprising, but ok, it the recognition that it was happening happened, and it didn't evaporate, then there is another story in play here.
What is the finish to the sentence (be spontaneous) "I see that I am expressing the content of a story, but...."

You say another story comes into play or else it would evaporate, that does make intellectual sense
'I see that i am expressing the content of a story but i still do it, i latch onto the emotion.' Or is it that an emotion pops up and maybe that’s ok but then i latch into it and then resistance create a story and a whole loop happens. Could this be it?

yes you’re definitely right, something less is required, i am attaching to that extra story, can i let the anger just be without making a story?

I️ only have to think of the word "meditation" and a deep breath happens and a wave of relaxation travels down my body.
One long exhalation is all it takes to let go of hours of stress. One imagined laugh is all it takes to dissolve stress hormones and replace them with oxytocin. A 30 second hug has similar results.

Oh VInce, this is wonderful. I am so happy for you and those around you that you can be like that. I love the imagined laugh. You don’t even need to do a real one. This is true 'being', i aspire for this. Me going on about noise and being disturbed , or being frustrated by the ridiculously long traffic lights here in the US must sound so silly but that’s what arises so i tell you. It’s in the little things and i think what you say is true, it’s the key to unlocking the resistance .

I resisted even while knowing resistance was futile

What was the story in the unfinished sentence above ?

Wow, exactly, that i latched on anyway, i resisted the emotion, it’s true. That’s why it didn’t evaporate. What you resist persists. So i recognize the frustration and then sabotage the dissolution of it by latching on anyway, this is about creating the story instead of simply seeing the emotion, hmmm... feelings cause stories and beliefs, it does work both ways!

but not so much with the children and husband and mother at times .

Watch out for self fulfilling prophesies with this. It is however, a great opportunity to investigate the process that gives rise to the frustration. See if you can 'step back' and observe the way it unfolds next time the opportunity arises.'

Can you expand on this VInce, what do you mean by watching out for self fulfilling prophecies. I dont understand that part.

But i do get about investigating the process that gives rise to the frustrations and welcoming it. I think when i do, if i think about it, these lead me to see something in myself that i wish were different.

Well hope you have had a nice day.

Thanks again
Love
Diana

[vinceschubert]

A lot of them have to do with noise ,

A few years ago, i had an experience that is still with me today. i was at a vipassana meditation retreat and in the middle of a meditation was hearing some children yelling and screaming as they played. It was very annoying. That is, until i realized that if the sound was a bird song, that i would be happy to hear it, but because it was a sound that had a story attached. A story that promoted annoyance. With this realization the annoyance evaporated.
Ah, another anecdote. This time i was sleeping in our caravan and it was just before daylight and in a sleepy, dream state, i was hearing the sound of the surf. i love the sound of waves on the beach. Very relaxing.
As i woke up a bit more, the realization that i was too far from the seaside to be hearing the surf, dawned on me.
i then realized that what i was hearing was the sound of traffic on the freeway about a mile away. Laughing happened as the seeing that it is the story that we respond to, happened.

i am making some progress here lol.

Excellent. (and i hope your lol was literal)

I️ am going to remind myself of that,

Although it is entirely appropriate to use words in a conventional way, for the sake of the exercise, here on the forum, let's try to be more pedantically accurate. We will revert to convention towards the end of our investigation.
So when you say "i am making progress", change that to "progress seems to be happening". When you say "I am going to remind myself..", change that to "the intention that a reminder would occur, happened."
Do you get it. Words are powerful. This exercise reinforces the the way things actually occur. ..anyway, try it for a while.
(just here, mind you. Not in conversation with (apparent) others)

and still most times get sucked in

Yes, don't have an opinion about getting sucked in. The key point here is the moment of recognition that it happened. It doesn't matter if it's hours or even days later. The moment it is seen, imagine lol-ing.

It’s hard in these quick moments to remind myself that the frustration is in the past like what you are saying and welcome it as a lesson

You're still talking like it is something that you have to DO. THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS!
It either happens or it doesn't. If it does, celebrate it. If it doesn't, you either won't know about it, or you will realize that it didn't. If you realize that it didn't, then celebrate the realizing.

but when I️ let them upset me,

This is not the way it happens. There is no "letting it upset you". Getting upset happens (or not) You didn't give permission to be upset. Now i'm going to get picky about the way you use words. (but not judgmental - so don't worry about it - seriously, don't worry)

the resistance causes a story. Is that right?

yes, but before that, there is a story that leads to the resistance. The story may not be overt, because it has been acted upon so much that the whole thing is automatic. It's a belief. That is, the story doesn't need any consideration any longer. The emotion responds to the trigger directly. The reason is no longer required.

can i let the anger just be without making a story?

No. There's always stories. Both before and after. Mind is a story telling machine that can't be turned off.

being frustrated by the ridiculously long traffic lights

i use waiting time (in a lineup or at lights) as a reminder and an opportunity to watch my breath (to meditate) and relax. i look forward to red lights to be able to do this. (no i'm not special. i've conditioned it in.)

Watch out for self fulfilling prophesies

Can you expand on this

What you expect to happen, often does...

love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince,

Sorry i missed yesterday, have a flu and not at my best, however i have been observing my thoughts and my day .

I know what you mean about sounds and liked your little anecdotes, it’s so true, and i do this sometimes myself, last night i had a lot of practice with sounds , ha ,ha , my 18 year old son and his friends were playing cards, drinking and singing at the tops of their voices lol, i ended up putting on headphones, but i didn’t get mad. I kept reminding myself it is what is is and it was effortless. It happened . Obviously there are different stories attached to sounds as you say, because i find my levels of annoyance accelerate when the noise is my husband's snoring, for example.

Ok, so we will start using words without 'I'so much right? When i am reporting to you on things, not for example an anecdote like yours you just gave about sounds where it would be impractical, is that correct?

I know words are powerful and get what you are saying, this is seen. Language shapes our world

Trying or reminding has been happening with regards to seeing reactions and not getting latched in, with some success. Opinions are harder to deal with, they seem to come a lot . OK, that sounded kind of silly writing it like that lol.

You're still talking like it is something that you have to DO. THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS!
It either happens or it doesn't. If it does, celebrate it. If it doesn't, you either won't know about it, or you will realize that it didn't. If you realize that it didn't, then celebrate the realizing.

So it’s just a conditioning then and it either happens or not? There still seems to be a thought process involved at a point , eg feel frustration rising, reminding of its already past, move on or not and go with story . Still need some clarification on this. See, you’ve got to the point where a lot of this is effortless , however to get to that point from this mind seems that it must have taken effort, the mind is the whole problem here, will just keep noticing, this seems to be more helpful.

This is not the way it happens. There is no "letting it upset you". Getting upset happens (or not) You didn't give permission to be upset. Now i'm going to get picky about the way you use word

Yes, writing it that way was not the best, there is no conscious decision of a person deciding or not to let something upset her. What causes upset ness to happen or not though? Conditioning?

the resistance causes a story. Is that right?

yes, but before that, there is a story that leads to the resistance. The story may not be overt, because it has been acted upon so much that the whole thing is automatic. It's a belief. That is, the story doesn't need any consideration any longer. The emotion responds to the trigger directly. The reason is no longer required.

Understood , the whole thing is automatic but you’re saying you can break it down in reality to more stories. Question : Do emotions ever just appear like thoughts do, without a story? Say a flower or butterfly is seen, pleasure and appreciation occur. The way the dog is sitting with his legs back behind him, so cute, pleasure occurs. If life is just allowed to occur as is, there will be reactions which basically boil down to pleasure or pain, which seem natural and we don’t have to analyze everything down to stories. Of course i know that there are still stories here, for example, we have been conditioned into thinking say, an earthworm is not cute like a bunny, however in reality the earthworm is perfectly beautiful , but i think you will get the jist of what i am asking here..

This mind of ours, wow, they really are story telling machines. Ours and everyone else’s, the media, the news, politics, but some stories seem worth getting caught in to a degree, what i mean is say , the environment, or the fact that right now so many sexual predators are being called out, it’s like we can’t live in this world without being somewhat caught up in the stories even while seeing them to be stories.

i use waiting time (in a lineup or at lights) as a reminder and an opportunity to watch my breath (to meditate) and relax. i look forward to red lights to be able to do this. (no i'm not special. i've conditioned it in.)

And this is also done here at times, though sometimes the desire to check twitter on my phone wins out, i breathe a lot while driving , ok, rewording, breathing happens a lot while driving when remembered, also there is distract
Ion with podcasts , useful distraction .

Ok, another question with regard to your statement , you say 'I’ve conditioned it in'. So, then this sounds like there was 'doing' on your part, a decision and all that, so that now it just 'happens', but something was done for you to get to this place in life that enjoyment happens at traffic lights. And if there is no free will, etc, i don’t get how all this plays out.

That’s it for now, Talk soon, hope you are having a good nights sleep, sweet dreams

Love D

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

the noise is my husband's snoring,

The language thing is difficult. What i want to say is different to what i will actually say. Take what i say as a metaphor. Here is the metaphor; Try this.. Listen intently to the quality of the sound of his snoring. Immerse yourself in the minutiae of the sounds. Notice the harmonics. Wonder at the irregularity of it. ..at the breaks in between. Wait for the next sound and imagine that it is pushing you down into a deep state of relaxation. Every utterance takes you deeper. Feel your body becoming more limp with each exhalation that he takes, and then again with every snore. Apply colors to different parts of each snore. The beginning starts out as one color, and it changes hue throughout and finishes as a completely different color.
The metaphor applies to the Doing, the decision and the control that is the usual way to follow instructions.
The way it might actually happen, is that the words above might trigger an intention. With that intention if there is an acceptance and a story that it might be worthy of trying, then a reminding might arise next time snoring is heard. Then if remembering of these words occurs, a different experiencing might just happen.

so we will start using words without 'I'so much right?

The words above in italics, is an example of what i am talking about. Once you can reflect how things actually work, we can go back to using conventional (metaphorical) language.

Opinions are harder to deal with, they seem to come a lot

Yes, of course they do. ..and as they are the most prominent portal into suffering, we want to be aware when they occur. We are not going to try to stop them. ..just recognize them as they occur.
A good trigger for the recognition that one has been born, is unpleasant emotion. (pleasant emotion also - but we'll deal with that one later)

So it’s just a conditioning

Hmm, words again. To clarify, i would see conditioning as habits. ..but when i say conditions, i am referring to circumstances. ...and none of this is deterministic.
A long way in front of us are infinite possibilities. As we approach it, circumstances reduce these possibilities into fewer possibilities. Then into probabilities. Then as circumstances become more concrete, those probabilities reduce. When we reach now, the circumstances (conditions) are all in place and only one probability is actioned. (this is my story)

and it either happens or not?

Yes, when we look back and see that it did happen, we can also see that if any condition was different, then it would have been a different happening.

There still seems to be a thought process involved

Yes, and i would call this one of the conditions. It certainly doesn't warrant a conclusion that the thought process was entirely responsible for the happening.

however to get to that point from this mind seems that it must have taken effort,

Certainly, it seems this way. It is a cultural delusion. Effort belongs in the same basket as control. Effort is real. It happens, but certainly not from decisions and control. Ask yourself this; If you make a decision to apply control to make an effort, why can't you always succeed in doing it ? What kind of control is it that only works sometimes ? Effort is a mind game.

What causes upset ness to happen or not though? Conditioning?

Conditions. You might call it conditioning if it is a habitual response. ..again, this is my story. In actuality (reality) it's a mystery.

Do emotions ever just appear like thoughts do, without a story? Say a flower or butterfly is seen, pleasure and appreciation occur.

No, there is always a story. Sometimes the story is bypassed, as in beliefs, but the story was integral in forming the original belief. Take my anecdote about hearing the surf and the pleasure i felt from that story. The flower or butterfly are just light patterns. It's the brain that responds to that.

If life is just allowed to occur as is, there will be reactions which basically boil down to pleasure or pain, which seem natural and we don’t have to analyze everything down to stories

It will still happen. It's called being human.

it’s like we can’t live in this world without being somewhat caught up in the stories even while seeing them to be stories.

True. ..but we can improve on the usual response.

you say 'I’ve conditioned it in'. So, then this sounds like there was 'doing' on your part,

It was a metaphor. You know what i was actually saying.
Remembering to laugh happened when recognizing that living out a story was happening. Conditions changed.

love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince,
Just wanted to tell you that i was in the middle of a reply to you but i didn’t finish, i decided today to reread our whole conversation and also i was reading the enlightened quotes app and a lot of things came up for me that i wanted to talk to you about, so i will continue tomorrow , got caught up going to the movies and seeing THOR with my family, hmm, very nice Australian star.....

Take care diana

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Diana. Yes, rereading our thread from beginning is a great idea. Do it slowly, and be aware of your intuition. Look for the slightest hint that there is a hidden gem in a phrase.
Have a look at the image and see if you can see the shark in it. You may have to experiment with your focus to see it. Keep looking until you do. It is a metaphor for your looking for a portal that takes you into the feeling of knowing that you are awake.
..a clue is that keeping your focus relaxed is more likely to yield results.


love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince ,
another stressful day here with lots of drama.
So yesterday i had started to reread and yes several things popped out at me and things i want to ask you too. I did not get any more time to continue today, sorry, still l am oberving as much as i can, Want to discuss choices some more with you also memories.
Regarding the shark, I remember those pics from long ago and remember how cool it was when you saw the pic, I looked at it for a while on my phone earlier with no luck and then right now as i go to bed, and i relaxed as you said, kind of stared through the pic, i also remembered that they became 3d, anyway all of a sudden I 'saw' Mr. Shark lol and got that same feeling of wonder i remember, so cool.
I love the metaphor and hope it helps with the feeling as you express it .

Talk tomorrow

Good night
Love
Diana

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince,

Wow well that took a lot longer than i thought to read over, also the last couple days have been hectic work wise , family wise etc, still not at my best and sleeping badly....

So i can’t write all that came up for me in the last couple days upon rereading because a lot indeed did, so i want to respond to your last message that i didnt respond to as yet at least.

Thank you for the snoring metaphor. You are very descriptive and a very good writer I have noticed, better than most .

I am understanding more and more about intentions and conditions which would then lead to different experiences. I can apply it to believing I am awake, right?

Opinions are harder to deal with, they seem to come a lot

Yes, of course they do. ..and as they are the most prominent portal into suffering, we want to be aware when they occur. We are not going to try to stop them. ..just recognize them as they occur.
A good trigger for the recognition that one has been born, is unpleasant emotion. (pleasant emotion also - but we'll deal with that one later)

Yes ,opinions and judgements by we humans are nearly non stop and definitely lead into stories, well they are stories, and certainly lead to suffering.
Many many opinions have to do with unpleasant emotions thats for sure. Pleasant stories are still stories and still based on conditioning.

To clarify, i would see conditioning as habits. ..but when i say conditions, i am referring to circumstances. ...and none of this is deterministic.

I think I need more clarification on this, conditioning as habits I️ get, can you explain more to me why you say none of this is deterministic?

So I️ relate to your story about circumstances and possibilities and probabilities. It still sounds a lot like manifestation theories though.
So, No free will as such, but not deterministic?

If any condition is different we get different results , this is clear, but if there is not control over conditions, I don’t understand, so whose the doer of the conditions? I’m guessing no one so where do they come from ?

however to get to that point from this mind seems that it must have taken effort

Certainly, it seems this way. It is a cultural delusion. Effort belongs in the same basket as control. Effort is real. It happens, but certainly not from decisions and control. Ask yourself this; If you make a decision to apply control to make an effort, why can't you always succeed in doing it ? What kind of control is it that only works sometimes ? Effort is a mind game.

Yes i see that just because thoughts occur doesn’t mean they are the entire responsibility for what happens, why did these thoughts come up anyway?

Cultural delusion, interesting term, CULT URE.

We think we are the doers and controllers of our lives right?
Thank you for the clarifications on effort. So effort just happens. It’s not control if it only works sometimes which clearly it is seen that control and ALSO effort are just stories. And when we see these stories, without effort it just happens that the usual response may be improved on, or of course, maybe not.


So i might add a few things tomorrow with regards to the notes I have made upon rereading everything. There WERE many hidden gems that I discovered.

Some things are becoming clearer.

This seems to be a very different path we are going down with you trying to lead me into portals that take me into the feeling of knowing that I am awake, I am intrigued.
I love that 3d image thing, its so amazing.

Well talk tomorrow hopefully

A little side note about memories, YESTERDAY my children found a very old youtube video back in Trinidad where we had taped children in school, my son was of course so much younger. I looked at al those kids and so many memories came back, also many of them I know what they look like today, so this was basically seeing al these lovely 11 year olds, their beauty, that are now adults today. Very nostalgic and got me to thinking of the stories of memories, they are not real , but yet bring up so many emotions. And those bodies were real right?

Also , on memories, I was watching where these women are coming with their stories of men molesting them from so long ago, yet because they take so long to come forward, they are ridiculed and doubted, yet these memories/stories are powerful and can change beliefs and circumstances etc. And some were ‘actual’
Interesting how much of life is made up of memories , but they really are stories. Yet they affect current reality

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

I can apply it to believing I am awake, right?

Yes. ..but let's be clear here. You are not awake until you know that you are awake. (know = believe) ..but (almost) all of the conditions for that to happen are present.

can you explain more to me why you say none of this is deterministic?

because circumstances are very fluid. Every condition depends on an infinite number of conditions. The conditions that are present now would be different if even one of the preconditions was different.

So, No free will as such, but not deterministic?

Correct. ..but don't get hung up on trying to work it all out. Accept the mystery of it all. The mind loves to hijack your attention.
This brings me to another useful story. How much of your minds activity would you say is either repetition, or just rubbish ?
..or another way to query this is to ask what percentage of your thoughts are actually useful in a practical way ?

I don’t understand, so whose the doer of the conditions? I’m guessing no one so where do they come from ?

Good. Why does there have to be a doer ? Good guess. no one knows.

Yes i see that just because thoughts occur doesn’t mean they are the entire responsibility for what happens, why did these thoughts come up anyway?

Good seeing. why = conditions (my story)

We think we are the doers and controllers of our lives right?

Yes. The biggest delusion.

memories, they are not real , but yet bring up so many emotions.

The experience of the memory is very real (actual) The content of the memory may have happened or may have been embellished or even conjured from imagination.
Emotion arise from stories about the thoughts (memories)

And those bodies were real right?

All you can say is that they exist as images and stories for you now.

Yet they affect current reality

Absolutely.

love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince,

I think i may be more confused than ever in a way, Connections between unreal and real, false and actual etc. WHAT IS FANTASY AND WHAT IS REALITY?

Ok this is going to be a long one, because i am going through your answer and posting also about what came up for me on review and rereading.

Yes. ..but let's be clear here. You are not awake until you know that you are awake. (know = believe) .

Know= believe??? Our beliefs are just thoughts, most of them wrong or fantasy, so how can 'know' be the same as 'believe'?

Well, i don’t 'believe' or 'know' that i am awake . Can i 'intend' to believe which might set up a new condition?

How much of your minds activity would you say is either repetition, or just rubbish ?
..or another way to query this is to ask what percentage of your thoughts are actually useful in a practical way ?

Ok, I’ll accept the mystery, so much is mystery, trying to figure this out with thought is not helpful. I don’t know how much exactly in terms of percentage of my thoughts are useless repetition , I️ think nearly all, like most humans, way way too much of my thoughts are either useless or repetitive. I am Trying to watch this more and more which is all i can do, ok, rewording this, watching and recognition of this fact is happening more and more , recognition that mind seems to have a mind of its own, pun intended, mental 'diarrhea' is rampant in me and most of the people i meet along the way.

Hope this answer helps and I do get the point, the mind is constantly trying to hijack my attention and it’s pointless to try to figure everything out.

Roger Castillo, who i like very much , comes from the Ramesh Balkasar and Ramana Maharishi tradition has of way of explaining mind that i like. He says we have the working mind and the conditioned mind. And that the working mind is necessary for navigation of life, to try to solve a problem etc .

But, Most of the time we humans are caught up in our conditioned mind, mostly fantasy , stories and repetitive garbage and mental diarrhea, (my words not his).

I’ve always thought that this is one of the main differences between humans and animals, they are not caught up in the rubbish conditioned mind.

The experience of the memory is very real (actual) The content of the memory may have happened or may have been embellished or even conjured from imagination.
Emotion arise from stories about the thoughts (memories)

Memory is a tricky one and this leads back to what i was saying about the intermingling of fantasy with actuality. So the memory is real because at the point of memory, thoughts are there and thoughts are another sense (mind). And thoughts can be about real or unreal things and can cause real emotions and feelings so affect reality , well 'our' reality. Makes sense, the coiled rope mistaken to be a snake but causing 'real' fear so i get this can happen . Fantasy leading to a real reaction. (Still not actually real though, since the fear and everything is a brain projection, no?)

Do you think that the reason most humans can’t remember anything before they were three or four years old is because the mechanism of developing the 'self' hadn’t happened yet so being illusionary there was literally 'nothing' to remember? Fascinating thought, is this accurate to say? Or just a mystery, or a good theory?


Now to a few things from my notes... some are insights and you can tell me if i am off, some are questions that came up.

I️nsight : I️ realise Mind and thoughts which can dictate nearly all of our lives are based on this false self which is judgemental, fearful, anxious, restless, and usually defensive, and that this is where all our suffering comes from , it’s all about 'me', and.... when we are NOT operating from this place things seem to run smoother, more natural, less controlling and thus less suffering . The paradox is that resisting what comes up through this mechanism simply reinforces it, welcoming acceptance is what is instead needed and recognition. Our minds fight our minds all the time,so pointless!

This quote from you hit me again!

it makes more sense to me to say that there is less likely hood of negative consequences when the flow of what life offers, is not resisted. ..or the distortion that arises from wanting things to be different, doesn't happen when THIS (what IS) is willingly welcomed.

So this is related to what I️ just said, Resistance is futile yet it happens so much, becoming more aware of this. I love how this is expressed by VInce.

another one from you ...'it’s the belief in concepts that seem to have consequences or more accurately set up conditions

Again this leads me to the connections between the non real or fantasy and the real , how believing in thoughts set up conditions that have real effects, again think suicide bomber, this is scary though to think how much of what happens is based on nonsense. And yet as you say wanting it to be differnt is to invest in the lie .Again i ask then how can beliefs be knowing as you said at beginning of your last post?

You said that seekers tend to overthink and that all that needs to be done is to drop the belief that you are 'I'. Can a belief just be dropped ? A condition needs to happen to make that a happening , no? Ok, conditions aren’t recognized yet here. Beliefs in feelings set up conditions. But since beliefs can be wrong, are never ultimately true, once again it seems like unreality affecting reality. This seems to be a sticking point here...

So beliefs aren’t real but consequences are real, they’re real stories about unreal stuff. Am i overthinking this? These were all things i discovered in our inquiry and they are confusing me and seem paradoxical . I think what IS is paradoxical, a mystery.


Another thing that seemed of importance upon rereading was you saying that by catching when a story is about to catch 'me', consistently, recognition of the story , and celebrating , especially with laughter even if the laughter is just imagining it, this sets up the conditions of realizing that we have been asleep. So it’s this I’m focusing on. Well, just watching when the happening occurs is the better way to put it, not focusing on!


Two more quotes from your posts really resonated with me:

The whole objective world and the inner world (everything and everybody) can only be experienced according to the conditions that are present. It is your interpretation that is everything. For you, nothing exists apart from that.
You might say that you are the creator of everything known to you.

Yes. There is only experiencing.
To create an experiencer takes imagination.
The experienced as we (now) know is a brain projection.
If you take an object and look at it until thoughts slow enough, everything except the looking vanishes.

Vince, is anything 'really' real? It’s all subjective and interpretation and all of this creation is just in mind, no? When you say 'For you, nothing exists apart from that ' this 'you' is illusionary, it can’t be real. The only thing real seems to be real is the 'verb' again, the experiencing of something happening. That’s all we can say, that something is 'happening' and everything else is construction based on belief and conditioning. It’s imaginary. This is pretty 'blow mind' stuff. Ha ha. As i wrote tat I️ laughed, blowing the mind up is necessary to see this. You say it perfectly in that quote ...there is ONLY experiencing, the experiencer is created from imagination and what the experiences experiences is all brain projection. So ultimately It’s not real. Not the subject and object, just the VERB!

This is big Vince.

Finally, this beautiful quote from one of your posts ...

What's wrong is the implication that it's external to you.
Have that reverence for the wonder of you.
You are not part of anything. You are everything. There is nothing that is not you.To see THIS as something extrinsic to you is what is religious.

That quote was your follow up from when i was talking about a 'pervasive ' intelligence . I️ do understand what you said , and even the definition of pervasive means it can’t be external to 'me', so i intellectually get all this and can even 'beleive' it but i have not experienced this yet, i think i am getting the illusionary self part so far , I️ see the self is an illusion but can’t get the i am everything , the whole there’s nothing that’s not me. Yet there is no me. I️ don’t get the flow that people in LU talk about. So at some level i am still feeling like there’s a sense of some 'meness ' , I can’t see it's all just THIS , this is where i am stuck.

So i think this is a good point for me to end, this has been helpful for me to go through all this, hope it helps your story get more of my story so we can see where next we can guide it , change conditions, lol. Sorry this post has been a bit disjointed, i am quite drained and tired now and it’s only 1000 am

Take care
Love
Diana

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

I think i may be more confused than ever in a way, Connections between unreal and real, false and actual etc. WHAT IS FANTASY AND WHAT IS REALITY?

It's very reasonable that there is confusion about these things. The consensus reality is obviously delusional.
The world agrees that there is a self that runs the show, yet none can be found. They think control is endemic, yet it apparently works randomly. They believe that what they perceive is objective, even as science shows them that it is a mental projection.
Of course you are confused. How can these things be reconciled ?
You have chosen the red pill, so can never blithely believe this rubbish again.
Confusion will remain until the mental conditioning is weakened and you stop trying to reconcile the impossible.
It will happen.

i think for me it’s easier for sure with sound, especially because the sound of silence is always there . And when i concentrate on it, it’s just hearing, nothing more . Also with looking, i can get that while drawing especially , these days i am not, but art and drawing gets me into pure direct experience,

Direct experience. That is, experiencing that is witnessed before thoughts arrive to overlay a story, is about as close to 'real' as you can possibly get.
..and as you know from experience, this is fleeting. Story inevitably arrives and colors it. Even changes it.
The response we have to the direct experiencing is almost always tempered by our habitual thought patterns.
So, for practical purposes, we take our responses, our reactions as 'real'. They are certainly actual.
So, i suggest that "unreal and real, false and actual etc. WHAT IS FANTASY AND WHAT IS REALITY?" is not only unanswerable, but actually irrelevant. ..or put it another way, they are words that can be added to words like 'enlightenment', 'God', 'spiritual' that mean different things to different people, but in general use have been so corrupted that they are meaningless.

Know= believe??? Our beliefs are just thoughts, most of them wrong or fantasy, so how can 'know' be the same as 'believe'?

Because 'knowing' is a concept. The actuality is that what people think that they know, are really only beliefs.
Do you know that the Statue of Liberty really exists ?
Yes ? How do you know ? From what you've read and heard ? or even have a memory of seeing ?
Isn't all this knowing just thoughts now ?
Sure, for practical every day navigation, it is appropriate to behave AS IF this belief is knowledge. (but we know better, don't we ? hahaha...)

Can i 'intend' to believe which might set up a new condition?

Absolutely. If the necessary conditions are present, that intention will happen. ...and will probably be a condition required for it to happen.

But, Most of the time we humans are caught up in our conditioned mind, mostly fantasy , stories and repetitive garbage and mental diarrhea, (my words not his).

Yes, absolutely. So what we are about is playing with a different conditioning of the mind. This happens when we examine the status quo in detail.

the intermingling of fantasy with actuality.

The only actuality is our current experiencing. Everything else is fantasy. ..and almost always our actual experiencing is born of fantasy (story)

Still not actually real though, since the fear and everything is a brain projection, no?

No. Brain projections are actual ('real')

Do you think that the reason most humans can’t remember anything before they were three or four years old is because the mechanism of developing the 'self' hadn’t happened yet so being illusionary there was literally 'nothing' to remember? Fascinating thought, is this accurate to say? Or just a mystery, or a good theory?

It's agood theory (because i arrived at it too)

based on this false self

i prefer to call it for what it is, a story of self. That story actually exists so i don't think that calling it false is accurate.

Can a belief just be dropped ?

No, but dropping does happen. More frequently they fade when a more appropriate belief comes into play. (for a while they live side by side)

are never ultimately true, once again it seems like unreality affecting reality.

"true, real" let's not use these words. What they point to, are concepts. If this is difficult for you, then give me a definition of them.

So beliefs aren’t real but consequences are real, they’re real stories about unreal stuff. Am i overthinking this?

No, you are spot on.

I think what IS is paradoxical, a mystery.

Spot on, again. So if you accept this, then what happens to the confusion ?

by catching when a story is about to catch 'me', consistently, recognition of the story , and celebrating , especially with laughter even if the laughter is just imagining it, this sets up the conditions of realizing that we have been asleep. So it’s this I’m focusing on. Well, just watching when the happening occurs is the better way to put it, not focusing on!

Beautiful. ..and a real pivot point.

Not the subject and object, just the VERB!

i am smiling and a little teary with joy that you grok this.

and can even 'beleive' it but i have not experienced this yet,

..sounds like an experiencing to me.

but can’t get the i am everything

Then tell me one thing that is not you ?

I️ don’t get the flow that people in LU talk about.

Everybody has their own unique experiencing. Your experiencing of their experiencing is your story. You can only interpret what you think that they are talking about. Forget them, except as a condition in your experiencing.

i am still feeling like there’s a sense of some 'meness '

Of course, you'd be in trouble without that. It is necessary for daily navigation. You just don't get sucked into believing that it is 'real'. (well,, the SENSE of me-ness is actual)

I can’t see it's all just THIS

Then tell me one thing in your current experience that is not THIS ?

Sorry this post has been a bit disjointed

..aargh!

i am quite drained and tired now

..in a beautiful way, i hope. (i have good feelings when i think of it like this. - i have good stories)

love love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince,

Thanks for your lovely post to me.

You have cleared up a lot of confusion about confusion!

THE CONSENSUS REALITY IS OBVIOUSLY DELUSIONAL.

I ‘believe’ this is indeed true, and when you start to see reality, and beyond the delusions, it makes it harder to not get caught up in the confusion at first because of this consensus and the fact that the whole world screams the opposite, and believes in this agreement that there is a self that runs the show, so it does indeed make it hard to reconcile, but i get that it is delusional. I really do.


I WANT TRUTH, I WANT AND HAVE TAKEN THE RED PILL.

Confusion will remain until the mental conditioning is weakened and you stop trying to reconcile the impossible.

Vince, are you over confusion now I wonder? In your life, you just don’t bother to try to reconcile the impossible and embrace and accept the mystery fully? Would you say that is the case?

So, i suggest that "unreal and real, false and actual etc. WHAT IS FANTASY AND WHAT IS REALITY?" is not only unanswerable, but actually irrelevant. ..or put it another way, they are words that can be added to words like 'enlightenment', 'God', 'spiritual' that mean different things to different people, but in general use have been so corrupted that they are meaningless.

Vince, this totally spoke to me, I am sooooo ready to be over trying to reconcile the impossible as you put it.
I am absolutely fine with not going with these words, don’t need definitions , over giving them any energy WHATSOEVER! For now they are irrelevant....

Because 'knowing' is a concept. The actuality is that what people think that they know, are really only beliefs.

PS the word Roger Castillo used was working mind and thinking mind , not conditioned mind but you got the point I’m sure, and we know which one causes suffering?!?!

Yes taken to this level, knowing IS a concept and when you realise you cant really ‘know’ anything, then what we think we know is really another belief. I GET THIS VINCE ! There are so many layers to this, are there not?

Regarding intentions, your take is fascinating, I think we will have to get into it more at at a later date because there is much more I want to talk to you about...

Intend something, if the necessary conditions are present, it happens. And for our purposes, we examine the status quo, which is ‘delusionsal ’ , irreconcilable and we realise this and then what we are about is playing with a different conditioning of the mind, i like the way you put this . It’s all about having different conditions line up ... or not, but for our purposes here yes !

The only actuality is our current experiencing. Everything else is fantasy. ..and almost always our actual experiencing is born of fantasy (story)

This was helpful too in my fantasy/actuality quandary . Our actual experiencing is born of fantasy pretty much all the time, but the current experiencing is actual. I really get it now that you have explained it all to me Vince, the brain projections too, its almost like if I think of it like a virtual video game, at a higher 30K above level, its all fantasy and not real, but for the character in it, whats happening at that point is what IS for that character. Which is why I can understand how you explained to me too that instead of calling it false self, it is story of self, and the story in this matrix exists. While embodied anyway, this is how it is.

So, I think I’m completely ok with realising that all these real stories are about unreal stuff and we can stop using the words unreal ,actual, true, fantasy etc. It’s not difficult for me anymore after this posting from you. I’m cool with the paradox and mystery, hell I can't do a dam thing about it anyway, and mystery seems to be part of the beauty. And yes when you accept this, confusions dissipates totally, its such a relief, a relaxation, its ok not to figure it all out, yes, it really is, the more we can go with the flow so to speak does seem to work better.

Ha Ha Vince, yes I am grokking it, LOL, yay, happy happy joy joy (why did a ridiculous cartoon from back when I️ was in college called Ren and Stimpy phrase just come to me?) Cause it just did cause the conditions were there lol. You’re so so sweet by the way, love your spirit..


So to the last point, the flow, everything being part of a whole, yes when I directly observe ANYTHING, it is seen to not be not a part of me, or rally divisible , even things at a distance, it’s like its so weird its like visually the 3D kind of becomes the 2D, thinking of it like drawing where this one 2 d pic can give all the effects of 3d, even like the cool shark you sent me the other day , illusions so real


THE SENSE OF MENESS IS REAL, ITS OK, BUT THE ACTUAL ME IS NOT REAL.

It’s all this, everything is THIS, but I am trying to convey to you in some way that even within this THISness I feel somewhat separate, like my toes are going to hurt more than yours if its hit by a falling rock.

One exercise i had been given by another guide was to go into nature and look at things and see how they are all connected, one thing can’t be happening without the other etc.

Today i was looking at nature and i watched a kingfisher on a very tall tree, the pond below, another bird flying by, the leaves of the trees fluttering, a plane passed by, an alligator was swimming , my house was there , a beautiful lovely fall day for Central Florida , sunny in the seventies, i took it all in, labeling of course happened but i still cant get how it’s all one, it’s all in my Awareness yes , it’s all me in a way, so intellectually then it’s all one, but it still seems separate to say what’s happening elsewhere , like by you in Australia.

So where to now ?

Thank you Vince

love
Diana

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

Vince, are you over confusion now I wonder? In your life, you just don’t bother to try to reconcile the impossible and embrace and accept the mystery fully? Would you say that is the case?

i can't remember the last time i felt confused about how things work. i do experience a relaxed certainty when i think about it. Then when i examine this, i realize that it is because i am comfortable with not knowing anything. The stories that i use, while obviously are stories, have a comfortable and loving vibe.

There are so many layers to this, are there not?

Yes. A quote i read today; Idries Shah, the Sufi teacher: “No matter what point of truth or understanding we arrive at, there is always one beyond it.”

we will have to get into it more at at a later date because there is much more I want to talk to you about...

ok.

like my toes are going to hurt more than yours if its hit by a falling rock.

That's a good story. Very likely accurate, but my toes will always be a story for you. Only the sensation of pain that your brain is projecting to your toes, can be experienced by you.
So the separation that you feel (think) is because of that story ?

i still cant get how it’s all one,

One, or not one. Duality or non-duality. These are stories too. Mind boggling concepts. If you realize that all of these wonderful things were the brain's interpretation of light waves (sensory input), then the mystery of what is actually out there, stimulating your senses, can happily remain a mystery. It's the experiencing (for what ever cause) that is relevant.

but it still seems separate to say what’s happening elsewhere , like by you in Australia.

Ok, so you have a story about separation. What are you going to do with it ?
The mind will never be satisfied. It will always come up with more (unanswerable) questions. That is it's nature.

So where to now ?

We have satisfied the LU brief, in that you clearly see that there is no separate self, but while you thirst for more... i am happy to keep going.
The next thing to consider is that the conditions we have mentioned, are in themselves, stories.
It may or may not be actual. We can't know.
We can only use logic (mental gymnastics) to arrive at a conclusion that for something to happen, that all of the necessary conditions were present. (it's a bloody good story)
So this wipes away another crutch. Another belief is exposed as just more thought fluff.
The mystery deepens. (i love it)

love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince

Started this and didn’t finish in time to post yesterday.

That's a good story. Very likely accurate, but my toes will always be a story for you. Only the sensation of pain that your brain is projecting to your toes, can be experienced by you.
So the separation that you feel (think) is because of that story ?

So, yes because this brain would be projecting the pain from this body organism, then it does seem that this implies separation, everything supposedly separate from me is part of my dream so to speak, my story as you say, and in day to day life there is a feeling of separation to a degree . A necessary part of the dream i think. I would be more upset if something happened to for example, 'my' child or 'my' dog, (I️ know they’re not really mine),it’s all degrees and not that there aren’t feelings of pain for others, but you know what i mean. These things are just part of life, of everyone's life

Vince, so this leads me to another point, I️ think that a lot of these stories of separation and the I illusion are part of evolution of the human race and necessary protections and mechanisms that were necessary for the human race to survive, i know this is another story, but it’s a logical one.

One, or not one. Duality or non-duality. These are stories too. Mind boggling concepts. If you realize that all of these wonderful things were the brain's interpretation of light waves (sensory input), then the mystery of what is actually out there, stimulating your senses, can happily remain a mystery. It's the experiencing (for what ever cause) that is relevant.

It’s everything and nothing, it’s dual, it’s non dual. It’s empty, it’s full. So everything is stories. Experiencing is what’s relevant you are saying, ok, well i guess that’s all that’s there is . Let the mystery be embraced.

Ok, so you have a story about separation. What are you going to do with it ?
The mind will never be satisfied. It will always come up with more (unanswerable) questions. That is it's nature]

Yes , mind's nature IS to struggle and keep trying to figure things out. So the jist of your post and now this reply is STOP STRUGGLING, LET IT BE. Or maybe better phrased would be WHY STRUGGLE?

The next thing to consider is that the conditions we have mentioned, are in themselves, stories.
It may or may not be actual. We can't know.
We can only use logic (mental gymnastics) to arrive at a conclusion that for something to happen, that all of the necessary conditions were present. (it's a bloody good story)
So this wipes away another crutch. Another belief is exposed as just more thought fluff.

I can see how conditions are stories that may or may not be actual. Now you’re saying that the premise that for something to happen all conditions must necessarily be present is ITSELF a story.

This doesn’t end, its all thought isn’t it?

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

Started this and didn’t finish in time to post yesterday.

Yes, it can take a while to get through sometimes..

I️ think that a lot of these stories of separation and the I illusion are part of evolution of the human race and necessary protections and mechanisms that were necessary for the human race to survive, i know this is another story, but it’s a logical one.

Yes, a good and logical one. i would see them as useful mechanisms. A SENSE of self and the apparent separation, the objectification of an (apparently) external world, was (probably) necessary for the invention of tools.

So everything is stories.

Everything prior and post experiencing, is.
Now with this wonderful story creating tool (mind), is it possible to create better stories. Stories that are useful.
An anecdote; Some 12 weeks after waking, i needed to deliver the eulogy at my friend and sister-in-law's funeral. At first, the idea of talking to a roof full of people, about such an emotional subject, seemed daunting.
The idea occurred that i could create a story where it would happen ok.
It did. i blubbered my eyes out and words happened without any 'self' consciousness.

So the jist of your post and now this reply is STOP STRUGGLING, LET IT BE. Or maybe better phrased would be WHY STRUGGLE?

Yes, if struggling happens, then celebrate the recognition that it is, when that happens.

This doesn’t end,

Exactly, i can't imagine that it ever ends. It's only been about 6 years since Vince became vince, and 'deepening' continues.
Guiding is a great help with this. You (imho) would make a great guide. Maybe you might consider paying it forward, when the time is right.
This brings me to the subject of wisdom.
This is something that i have considered and examined deeply. It is something that has a tangible feeling. Subtle, yet tangible.
It happens when a relaxed mind has the opportunity to consider multiple perspectives. It often doesn't have conclusions, but possibilities.
It happens when it is realized (made real) that there is no self to defend. When opinions are recognized as conditioned stories. When there is no agenda. It's the nature of an ego that is seen and ignored.
It is apparent in the tone of your replies.
Watch to see if denial arises and if it is linked to your story of Diana.

love

vince