The Gate

Hi,

Everyone comes to the realisation or seeing in different ways. For some, its a big perceptual shift for others its more gradual. As has been pointed out once seen its impossibe to not see anymore. And the seeing results in letting something go rather than acquiring a new type of knowledge if that makes any sense.

From what you write it sounds like some shift is taking place. Lets have a look at the first confirmation queston to see if there is more work to do here.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

love

amrita

Hi Amrita,

I’ve taken a little longer than usual before making this post, because it felt like your questions needed more time to soak in this time.

It does feel like more work is needed here. There’s no impression of a self existing, but something’s not quite sitting right at the moment. There's a feeling of doubt. Not about there being a separate self, but that I’ve really, truly SEEN this. It seems that more expectations are surfacing, about what it “should” be like to see through the illusion – and in particular, what I “should” know, or understand, if I’ve seen this clearly – and my experience isn't matching up. I’m wondering whether it’s actually happened or if I’m fooling myself. Expectations about how things “should” be are just thoughts, but they’re nagging at me.

To give you an example. I was sitting in the garden yesterday morning, sitting with the idea that experience is all I can ever really know. The garden is experience, my body is experience, that tree over there, just experience. And then the scientist in me wondered what it means for two people to experience that entity over there we call a ‘tree’ so similarly that they agree on what it’s like and its characteristics. In science, that kind of triangulation we call consensus and take it to be an advance in knowledge. But what does it mean when experiences coincide? What kind of knowledge is science composed of? Do we know anything? Is there any way beyond plain experience, via consensus? It all got a bit metaphysical. I didn’t have answers to those questions, and I thought, if I really understood this – if I had SEEN experience as it is - wouldn’t I have a way of responding? So there’s my doubt. Maybe it’s a last blast from the conceptual mind, or maybe I haven’t really ‘got it’ yet. I’d be very grateful for your pointers on where I am in this process, and what’s missing, if anything.

As has been pointed out once seen its impossibe to not see anymore. And the seeing results in letting something go rather than acquiring a new type of knowledge if that makes any sense.

Yes, this makes sense to me. The word that keeps coming to mind when I feel the feeling of this is ‘surrender’. It’s the release of something not done any more, a complication not added or at least, seen for what it is when it does happen. I’m sure I’m not imagining that my thought-chains have been shorter this past week or so – emotive thoughts and difficult feelings have less momentum and are just gone when they’re gone. There’s a feeling of aliveness to the dynamics of the moment that feels a little bit looser. It’s fun.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there never was a separate self, or me, or I. And what’s weird is, although at this moment I can’t quite fathom how I could ever have thought there was, and been sucked in so totally by the autobiographical story I’ve been telling myself all these years, I don’t feel surprised – either by seeing what I see now, or by the completeness of the mistake. It’s as though they both make a certain kind of sense, it’s just that the narrative of self is like a house of mirrors – nothing behind the façade.

So, this is where I am just now.

With much gratitude, as ever,

Willing x

Hi,

It sounds like you see there is no self within the direct experience of here and now but there are intellectual doubts about the nature of reality and subjective experience. Have I got that right? I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying about this.

In terms of expectations, who told you that it would be any different from what it is? And isn't it better to look for yourself rather than taking on board somebody elses sets of ideas about awakening or liberation?

If terms of doubts, who or what is having these doubts? Do "doubts" take the the form of thoughts or sensations? Is there a self that is having doubts or are there just thoughts and sensations arising? What is it that makes some thoughts more real or convincing than others?

And this is very well put. Yes, the self is an autobiographical story made up from thoughts that does not exist in reality. It's just a story. Like father xmas :)

No, there never was a separate self, or me, or I. And what’s weird is, although at this moment I can’t quite fathom how I could ever have thought there was, and been sucked in so totally by the autobiographical story I’ve been telling myself all these years, I don’t feel surprised – either by seeing what I see now, or by the completeness of the mistake. It’s as though they both make a certain kind of sense, it’s just that the narrative of self is like a house of mirrors – nothing behind the façade.

I hope things have got clearer for you and you are still enjoying the aliveness to the dynamics of the moment!

Amrita x

Hi Amrita,

Thank you for pressing me on the source of these doubts, this is definitely helping :)

It sounds like you see there is no self within the direct experience of here and now but there are intellectual doubts about the nature of reality and subjective experience. Have I got that right?

Yes, exactly. The doubt seems to stem from the idea that that would be clarity on the nature of experience (and perhaps even the nature of reality) if the illusory nature of the sense of self had been truly seen through. It's strange that, like a lot of people seem to, I thought I was starting this process with an intellectual understanding of the 'self illusion' that wasn't fully seen in experience. Now, experientially, I have no questions at all, but the intellect is unconvinced! Huh?!! I'm also harbouring an idea that if you truly, deeply know something - in a lived sense - then you can explain it, but I don't have that with this. So there is a sense that this knowing lacks depth or clarity at the moment. It's not unstable, but it is ineffable. I read posts by guides here, and the understanding coming through those posts is crystal clear and explicit. I don't have that, and it's giving rise to doubt. Are there any looking exercises I could try to test and stabilise this seeing, maybe, to check it out from more angles?

In terms of expectations, who told you that it would be any different from what it is? And isn't it better to look for yourself rather than taking on board somebody elses sets of ideas about awakening or liberation?

No-one's told me this - the doubts and questions coming up are all "my" creation :)

If terms of doubts, who or what is having these doubts? Do "doubts" take the the form of thoughts or sensations? Is there a self that is having doubts or are there just thoughts and sensations arising? What is it that makes some thoughts more real or convincing than others?

Good question! No-one is having these doubts, there are just doubts happening. They're thoughts and ideas. I guess I am treating them as more real than other thoughts, because I'm paying attention to the content of them. Caution feels appropriate here - I don't want to kid myself that I've seen through the illusion if I haven't fully done so and (although I don't particularly sense this is happening) feel there could be a risk of deluding oneself. But perhaps the fact that I'm giving these thoughts weight is itself a sign that there's still a bit of clinging to self going on (if I had to speculate, it might be something like wanting to avoid being someone that makes grandiose claims about experiential insight, blah blah blah...). Not that I'm actually, explicitly having thoughts like this, just trying to be really honest about where I sense pockets of doubt or resistance might be.

I hope things have got clearer for you and you are still enjoying the aliveness to the dynamics of the moment!

Hehe, thank you. slowly, slowly.. :)

love,
willing x

Hi,

this inquiry is about looking into the nature of direct experience ie sensations, sounds, tastes, smells, colours and thoughts and seeing in each sense modality there is no self nor neither a self that perceives them. All of these things arise and pass. The nature of reality is mysterious and unknowable to us on a fundamental level. Life simply is.

Try this exercise and let me know how it goes and anywhere you may be getting "stuck".

Look at sensation.
Look at thoughts about sensation.
Look for what knows there is sensation.
Look for what knows there are thoughts about sensation.

Look at sound.
Look for what knows there is sound.

Look at taste.
Look for what knows there is taste.

Look at smell.
Look for what knows there is smell.

Look at colour.
Look for what knows there is colour.

Look at thoughts.
Look for what knows there are thoughts.

Post back when you are ready

lots of love

Amrita x

Thank you, Amrita. I really appreciate your support and guidance here.

To be very honest, I haven't got very far with making these investigations, so this is mainly just to check in with you today. Keeping constant with the inquiry feels important. There doesn't seem to be very much to see though, and I'm still in 'letting it be' rather than 'actively looking' mode.

I started with the first set of questions:

Look at sensation.
Look at thoughts about sensation.
Look for what knows there is sensation.
Look for what knows there are thoughts about sensation.

There's no self in sensation, and there doesn't seem to be a 'what' knowing there is sensation. Knowing is integral to the experience; it seems that experiencing is knowing.

I didn't find many thoughts about sensation coming up - findings I've sunk pretty deeply into just experiencing. Those that do arise don't seem to be different to any other thoughts, though - there's not a self attached to them, they just appear. Sometimes I am still finding myself absorbed in the content of thought, but finding it increasingly easy to extricate myself and recognise that they're simply a manifestation of everything that's going on in that moment, and not necessarily to be trusted.

I'll carry on with the other sensory modalities, and keep posting each day to stay in touch.

I hope you're well. Thanks again for all of your help.

warmly,
willing x

Thanks for getting back and letting me know whats going on. In a way it sounds like you have seen there is no self but were having a few doubts about the process. How is it for you now? Can you still see there is no self? Do you still have doubts? Is there anywhere you feel stuck with this? Yes, take your time and make sure what you experience is real for you rather than an (other) intellectual idea.

love to you

amrita x

Thanks, Amrita.

In a way it sounds like you have seen there is no self but were having a few doubts about the process. How is it for you now? Can you still see there is no self?

Yes, I still see there's no self. The process doesn't seem to be moving very much. It feels like it's getting kind of vague. I'm taking time to cultivate contact with direct experience as much as possible, to ground myself in that rather than ideas. But I feel like I don't really know what I'm looking for any more, or what I'm trying to see. I'm losing focus.

Do you still have doubts?

Less so, but not because they've been resolved exactly. It's more that thoughts about them are coming up less. I'm interpreting this as a recognition of the thoughts as thoughts and not really relevant to this inquiry. That doesn't feel fully satisfactory, although it's hard to say why. There's just a background feeling that the inquiry isn't quite done yet.


Love,
willing x

Hi,

can you say a bit more about this background feeling that you are not finished with this inquiry?

There's just a background feeling that the inquiry isn't quite done yet.

What do you imagine it would feel like to live life without a self or central reference point of me or I?

amrita

Hi Amrita,

can you say a bit more about this background feeling that you are not finished with this inquiry?

The feeling is one of a lack of clarity, it's a bit like looking through fog. There is also something to do with this experiential kind of knowing that feels somehow unsolid, too. Generally speaking, I tend to be able to find ways to express my felt experience, although imperfectly, reasonably well. This time, I can't say what I've understood - I can't describe it or conceptualise it. So it feels vulnerable - I realised this morning that there's some kind of low-key fear that I'll lose it or lose access to it if I can't process it into language or something. It's like I haven't 'grasped' it fully yet. In the next breath I realised how funny it is to worry about losing something that's always there for the seeing - but although I see that, I don't have confidence in it yet. I think this is all connected to the feeling of the inquiry not being quite complete, and for it to feel complete, the seeing would need to be clear to me - fully evident. I'm not sure how clear this is outside my own thoughts, but hopefully it communicates something of what's going on.

What do you imagine it would feel like to live life without a self or central reference point of me or I?

Right now it feels like the above! Not any different in itself - I don't think I have expectations of some big change in how life is or feels. Though saying that, there have been more subtle, gradual letting-gos happening in the past couple of weeks - almost imperceptible sometimes - but overall a deepening feeling of groundedness in whatever's going on, of contact. Where I do still seem to be carrying expectation is around how this seeing is known - there is a definite sense that it isn't fully clear yet, and that lack of clarity brings doubt.

Thank you for asking, I really appreciate your questions.

with love
willing x

Hey there,

Does processing something into language (thinking) make it more real? Is thinking about a thing more real than the thing itself? For example, are thoughts about an apple more real than the actual apple itself? Whats more real for you, the direct experience of the HERE and NOW or thoughts about experience?

Best wishes

amrita

Hi Amrita,

Sorry that I couldn't reply sooner - I've been away visiting family this weekend. I'm typing from my phone so don't have the quote function at the moment.

To reply to your question about which is more real, all I can say is that they both are, to the extent that either is. Thoughts and sensation are both experience. I wasn't saying that thoughts, or putting the experience would make it more real to me, though - it's more that seeing through the illusion of self doesn't feel clear at the moment. Because it isn't clear, I have doubts about whether I've fully, really SEEN it yet. Does that make sense? Language feels a bit clumsy here, or maybe I'm just not capturing this very well.

I sense this inquiry is getting a bit stuck for me in talking ABOUT what the experience is like, rather than inquiring directly INTO experience itself. I think more close looking is probably needed. There is a sense that this is gradually settling, but maybe more investigation would help to crystallise what I am seeing. Would that be ok? It was helpful when you asked me the first of the 'final questions', and I wondered if going on with those, one by one, might help to pinpoint where I'm not quite clear, if you think I'm ready to look into the other areas too. Or any other exercises to stay rooted in experience rather than reflection.

With much gratitude,
willing x

Hi,

Lets try the first three confirmation questions. And please answer from direct experience rather than thoughts about experience.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

best wishes

amrita

Hi Amrita,

Thanks for these questions, and for staying with me in this inquiry. These are very spontaneous responses just from where things are just now

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there's no separate self, and there never was one. There was a persistent impression of one, but I see now that the impression is an idea formed in the moment, not an entity with an independent existence beyond the thought of it. At the moment it is barely arising, the question doesn't come up.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is an interpretation of experience, in which the experience is attributed to, or 'owned' by the self as something beyond the experience itself. But actually it is just part of experience, a thought process. I've noticed it arising in different ways. It can be a thought that follows an experience, that claims it (like owning, 'self-attributing' a choice), or it can be a feeling of 'me-ness' that experiences happen to. This seems to stem from identification with the physical body or the awareness of experience, which feels like an observer or witness of what's going on. Both are actually dimensions of experience, and may be present or absent at any given time. I saw through the 'autobiographical I' first, in an LU dialogue earlier this year, but the feeling of 'me-ness' was more persistent - this is the aspect of the illusion that you've helped me to see into and let go of.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It hasn't been a big or sudden realisation, and the feelings of seeing aren't especially strong ones. When I saw through the autobiographical I - the life story stuff - it was much more of an 'event'. It was joyful, funny, uplifting - I had a feeling of expansiveness and calm and simple delight that often comes with time spent on retreat. It was a feeling of loving and blending into everything. This time the seeing was gradual, and in some respects so subtle that I wasn't sure if I could trust it. If I'm honest, I probably expected something like what had happened before. Instead, the feeling is a low-key one of feeling closer life as it happens - like being in more direct contact with experience. What's different from when I started this dialogue is that I have no sense whatsoever that there is something to see, or to realise. It isn't like realising anything, or learning, or developing spiritually. I do think it opens to the door to the latter, though - life is different in subtle ways that nevertheless feel potent. For example, discursive thought chains are generally shorter, are less intense, and are not generally taken at face value, or not for very long. Experience feels somehow clearer. There is greater attunement to what's happening - in a bodily sense, situationally - and I find myself doing what seems to be needed and questioning it less. More allowing. And this is not an especially easy time either - I am certainly not living in a blissful, happy state right now! But there is a kind of groundedness underneath it all. There is also less friction, and that feels helpful. What seems to have really diminished over the past couple of weeks is the tendency to interpret experiences and situations in relation to my perceived 'self': characteristics, traits and the narrative of me - those thoughts are coming up less, and again, that seems to bring a feeling of being in closer contact with those experiences and situations.


I've had a quick scout around for feelings of doubt or stuckness, too. Not sure I can say anything at the moment - the doubts have receded, but they haven't been met with clarity or a stronger sense of seeing this - it's more like they're fading. There's still a feeling of uneasiness around that! - not sure sure it's a settling of something subtle or retreat into vagueness. Slowly, it also feels like I'm letting go of the idea there might be a feeling like the one I described above, when I saw through the autobiographical story. There is probably still an expectation lurking that there will be a knowing of some kind when this is 'done', even if it takes a different form, and that hasn't arrived yet. But maybe that's nothing more than another thought.

With gratitude for your ongoing guidance and support - a heartfelt thank you, Amrita.

love,
willing x

Great answers. Here are three more questions to help you examine whether there is any more work to be done here. As always, answer from experience.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Anything to add?

As for thanking me, it has been a great pleasure to guide you.

Warmest wishes

amrita x