Beginnings

[Sophia]

Hi Luisa...

We are clear now that there is not a self sustaining the life, so life is sustaining itself, put it in a different way, life just happens. Do you see it in that way?

Yes, I do see it that way and would possibly say it : Life is sustaining itself

It seems to me that you using logics to respond here. Am I right? If so, please recall a decision you think you made recently and LOOK at the process directly. Please explain what you find in AE.

So you are saying that the thoughts were not relevant for you to get up, neither for you to take a sip of a drink. Good! We are going to dig a little bit more here, please recall a "more relevant decision" like deciding to change a job or whatever it really happened to you. Have a fresh look and see with new eyes to what and how it went. Elaborate your replay please.

I won't choose falling in love because that really isn't a logical decision!!! I had to decide recently whether to offer a particular retreat next year. There was a deadline for the decision, Thursday this past week. In this regard, I'd say that I followed intuition (Is this another label for no-self or flow or life) in that I said no, because there was nothing about it that felt right... Right to what/who? Just 'right'.

So to integrate this let's go to continue with the investigation of decisions, bring again the questions and answer them one by one, please. Do you make decisions?

I can see that there is the illusion of making decisions. One could go left or right, a thought pops in 'you could go left or right' and then the self seems to choose to go one of those ways, but really, the body just seems to go one way or the other. I was sitting in another part of the house just now and the thought popped up, you could go and respond to Luisa... There clearly wasn't a self who orchestrated that thought to pop up when it did and the body did respond to the thought, but there wasn't a self saying 'okay, pick up that leg, then the other etc..." It was a bit like breathing, or the heart pumping blood...

Are you in control over anything that happens?

There isn't a self in control of thoughts... in control of what happens around 'me'... There does seem to be some co-operation with Life... The more 'awakened one is, in the flow of Life/through the gate perhaps' there would seem to be the opportunity to co-operate more consciously because I'm not getting pulled around by a belief in the false self, or self or thoughts running the show... so even now, I can see say frustration arising, and then there is the impetus to relax and open and not express it... to allow it to go... I'm not suggesting this is a self... but some greater 'co-operation' with Life...

Do you have a choice over what "you do" and what "you think"?

There is no choice over what thoughts arise, or when those thoughts would dissipate... The doing part of the question... really there is no doer, there is doing, some of the time anyway... like at 4am!

Your next question may be "who experiences 'a grand feeling'? Actually the question is: WHAT is experiencing anything?
Take your time to look and see carefully.

Thank you Luisa, this 'push back' was a good challenge to me... I can notice a thought arising, 'i'm enjoying this cup of tea ' and then without 'my' control there is another thought... there is no self... and then there is space and in AE there is no what or who... and then the next thought or action happens, like typing and it just happens.

I come from a catholic background... so have had many, many years of say 'god" personified, and i get why they did that... its an easier way to tell a story of separation... to point to the truth, well it was back then and has been successful for some folk... I can see now there there are a myriad of ways... and 'this inquiry' process is certainly very helpful...

So again thank you indeed...

[Luisa]

Hi Sophia,

There does seem to be some co-operation with Life... The more 'awakened one is, in the flow of Life/through the gate perhaps' there would seem to be the opportunity to co-operate more consciously because I'm not getting pulled around by a belief in the false self, or self or thoughts running the show... so even now, I can see say frustration arising, and then there is the impetus to relax and open and not express it... to allow it to go... I'm not suggesting this is a self... but some greater 'co-operation' with Life...

Even after seeing that life just happens, it is very common to replace the self or the doer with a different entity. The premise of "being conscious" is again something that requires someone to be conscious, do you see that?.
Certain technics or systems use this approach, so one is cultivating the illusion for at the end deconstruct it, but LU uses a Direct Pointing to the illusion, that's why it can be seen in a relative short time.
Does life need co-operation to happen?
Is not "suggesting some greater co-operation with life" just a thought?
What do you really SEE in direct experience? Have a look and report only from what you get through seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing and feeling, forgetting about what thoughts and imagination say.
Do you see co-operation or an "impetus" going on and on? Would you say that this "impetus" works in the same way breathing does?

I can notice a thought arising, 'i'm enjoying this cup of tea ' and then without 'my' control there is another thought... there is no self... and then there is space and in AE there is no what or who... and then the next thought or action happens, like typing and it just happens.

Indeed, in AE there is not what or who, only what IS, only experience, but no one experiencing. Then typing happens because is what is meant to happen, is this what you see?
Now, is the thought 'i'm enjoying this cup of tea ' needed in order to experience 'enjoying a cup of tea'?

Thank you Luisa, this 'push back' was a good challenge to me...

Excellent, challenges are opportunities for openness.

Looking forward to receive your answers
Love,
Luisa

[Sophia]

Hi Luisa...

Even after seeing that life just happens, it is very common to replace the self or the doer with a different entity. The premise of "being conscious" is again something that requires someone to be conscious, do you see that?.

Yes I do, it is subtle isn't it... a 'self' wanting to own or project or...

Certain techniques or systems use this approach, so one is cultivating the illusion for at the end deconstruct it, but LU uses a Direct Pointing to the illusion, that's why it can be seen in a relative short time. Does life need co-operation to happen?

Hell no.... it's been going forever and may go forever... I guess your question has exposed a 'belief' that life needs humans to do its work for it!!!! I'll play with this question more today and see the illusion of that...

Is not "suggesting some greater co-operation with life" just a thought?

Yes, a thought tied up with a belief system... as just said, I'll play with this more today...

What do you really SEE in direct experience? Have a look and report only from what you get through seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing and feeling, forgetting about what thoughts and imagination say.

Just something that is labelled sound (a bird, someone moving a rubbish bin) but if I hadn't learnt they were sound, what would I label them? But just sound, taste of sip of tea, sensation where my hand rests on the desk... no need of any story at the moment.

Do you see co-operation or an "impetus" going on and on? Would you say that this "impetus" works in the same way breathing does?

Well I suspect so... If I go back in memory to some of that I did yesterday... naturally it seems life jut does the next thing, and the next and the next... If i lay down at 2pm I'd get up no doubt... because that is what life woudl do, or stay there too...

Indeed, in AE there is not what or who, only what IS, only experience, but no one experiencing. Then typing happens because is what is meant to happen, is this what you see?

Yes I do... at least while sitting here right now... because that is the next thing to do...

Now, is the thought 'i'm enjoying this cup of tea ' needed in order to experience 'enjoying a cup of tea'?

No absolutely not - there is just enjoying... it is just the 'self commentator' babbling on, and sometimes throughout the day I experience that the babble finishes more quickly... and i'm aware this isn't about babbling finishing, whatever is in AE is in AE - and I can appreciate that some insight such as we've got to already... there is way less 'attachment or ownership of babble... Life seems to babble some times...

Luisa, I realised yesterday while waking up in the night is so helpful; to ask these questions... and that;'s because it is so obvious that there isn't a self that wakes a me up! There is just waking up without an originator other than in life that was the next thing that happened... very easy to see AE at that time...

Always thank you indeed... Sophia

[Luisa]

Hi Sophia,

Life seems to babble some times...

Lol. Yes there is babbling, just empty bubbles arising and passing.

Just something that is labelled sound (a bird, someone moving a rubbish bin) but if I hadn't learnt they were sound, what would I label them? But just sound, taste of sip of tea, sensation where my hand rests on the desk... no need of any story at the moment.

Would you agree then that in hearing there is only hearing,
in tasting there is only tasting,
in seeing there is only seeing,
in feeling there is only feeling,
in smelling there is only smelling,
in hearing there is only hearing,
and in knowing there is only knowing?
Is there taste of sweetness or is there only tasting?

Well I suspect so... If I go back in memory to some of that I did yesterday... naturally it seems life jut does the next thing, and the next and the next... If i lay down at 2pm I'd get up no doubt... because that is what life woudl do, or stay there too...

You don't need to suspect anymore, either you don't need to answer "yes and no" anymore, now you can see directly and report from actual experience, there you can find that "I don't know" is a very valid answer sometimes.

Please, direct your vision to an object, like a table, you see colours and then thoughts come and label the experience with the term 'table', 'black', 'small' maybe 'look at the table' or 'I'm looking at the table'.

What would happen if we ignored these labels given by thought?
Is there still a "table"? Is it "black"? Is there even "colour"?

Does experience have a location in space, or is it closer than even the word "here" can convey?

There is the knowing of experience and the known (table). But where does the known always and only appear?

Is there someone here doing the looking at something "over there"?

Is there even "looking"?

Is there a deviding line between the aspects of experience? Are there different aspects?
Could looking by itself tell, that it is something seperate from hearing or sensing?
Where only could you know this from?


Again drop ALL thinking right now! Go completely blank!
What remains? What cannot be gotten rid of?

Love,
Luisa

[Sophia]

Hi Luisa...

Would you agree then that in hearing there is only hearing,
in tasting there is only tasting,
in seeing there is only seeing,
in feeling there is only feeling,
in smelling there is only smelling,
in hearing there is only hearing,

Yes to all of that when experienced in AE...

and in knowing there is only knowing? Is there taste of sweetness or is there only tasting?

Yes, again in the AE experience there is only knowing and in tasting something sweet - just tasting. At the moment I am sucking a throat lozenger and when I first put it in my mouth, my self 'helpfully' described the flavour to me... now its been in sometime of course I don't notice the flavour... and when I do return to the AE experience it is just tasting...

Please, direct your vision to an object, like a table, you see colours and then thoughts come and label the experience with the term 'table', 'black', 'small' maybe 'look at the table' or 'I'm looking at the table'. What would happen if we ignored these labels given by thought?

I just looked at a small glass object on my desk that 'I love' and as soon as I looked at it - I felt sensations in my heart area... this was moments before a thought came across - "oh I love that glass flower- perhaps I need to choose something I don't love'... then i noticed thoughts and went back to AE of the glass flower and I could just be in that experience... yes the body sensations rose and dissipated without a self managing that, then thoughts rose and dissipated without a self orchestrating that... so to respond to your question... there woudl be seeing, then noticing sensations, seeing... and whatever comes next...

Is there still a "table"? Is it "black"? Is there even "colour"?

I've just done it again with the same glass flower... first up... I couldn't even label what happened as seeing... seeing seemed to drop out too... there just was the AE without even the description of 'seeing'... then it returned more to seeing. There can be a subtle quieter labeling going on - not the bubbly self commentator, but still a much softer labeling without story...

Does experience have a location in space, or is it closer than even the word "here" can convey?

Okay Luisa, obviously I respond to questions before looking at the next question... and i think this question now refers to what was experienced... seeing dropped away and it was as I described as: 'there just was'. There was certainly no subject Sophia and object, glass flower... 'there just was'... (for a moment anyway then that dissipated too)...

There is the knowing of experience and the known (table). But where does the known always and only appear?

Yes... there is the knowing of experience and the glass flower. Luisa - I'm not quite sure of the next part of the question, can you ask it again...

Is there someone here doing the looking at something "over there"?

No... and yet it doesn't feel entirely impersonal either (which I may describe as two dimensional - like just bland)... what I'm saying is that AE has life too!!! LoL who'd have thought!!!! The experience wasn't referring back to a self... there was some sensation that if I were to name it i'd say delight.

Is there even "looking"?

Okay... so I responded to this really for some moments there just was... who'd have thought again!!!

Is there a dividing line between the aspects of experience? Are there different aspects?

This question takes me right up into my mind to try and figure it out... it seems as if experiences are just on a roll... one after another, AE of being with flower, then a thought... then AE of a sip of lemon... so there seems to be a flow of what i might describe as AE.. not AE.... AE not AE... and wait I'm catching myself here. You said at the beginning of your email it was okay to say "I don't know'.. So that is the best response here - I don't know.

Could looking by itself tell, that it is something separate from hearing or sensing?

Nope... just a glimpse of this though....

Where only could you know this from?

I don't know... that response again...

Again drop ALL thinking right now! Go completely blank! What remains? What cannot be gotten rid of?

This is a good/difficult question. When I just sit eyes closed with it... it seems the arising of stuff - be it sound, sensations, thoughts, just stuff seems to arise, bubble, arise, bubble... fall away of course... I can't name what it is arising in and falling out of... my mind says consciousness if there needs to be a label... stuff coming and going...

I then opened my eyes and looked out to the harbour and then thoughts arose to... then a commentary on the thoughts, and they're dropped away - no long story... now just the next thing, reading the last three words, sound of a txt coming in... arising and falling, arising and falling...

Thanks Luisa - big investigation, thank you... Sophia

[Luisa]

Hi Sophia,

I'm noticing the spaciousness you described is growing there in your answers, good for you!

I've just done it again with the same glass flower... first up... I couldn't even label what happened as seeing... seeing seemed to drop out too... there just was the AE without even the description of 'seeing'... then it returned more to seeing. There can be a subtle quieter labeling going on - not the bubbly self commentator, but still a much softer labeling without story...

Excellent! You've brought up a key point, words can not describe AE as it is beyond concepts and labels, but we need to use words to communicate, that's why wording, avoiding get obsessed by it, it is very important. Is not this 'subtle quieter labeling' another way of labeling thoughts? Would you say that the 'subtle quieter labeling' is awareness of thoughts arising and passing?

There is the knowing of experience and the known (table). But where does the known always and only appear?

Yes... there is the knowing of experience and the glass flower. Luisa - I'm not quite sure of the next part of the question, can you ask it again...

As in the knowing there is only knowing, there is only experiencing. But the known (glass flower) meaning the concept can only appear in thoughts. Check if this resonates with your view in AE, please.

This question takes me right up into my mind to try and figure it out... it seems as if experiences are just on a roll... one after another, AE of being with flower, then a thought... then AE of a sip of lemon... so there seems to be a flow of what i might describe as AE.. not AE.... AE not AE... and wait I'm catching myself here. You said at the beginning of your email it was okay to say "I don't know'.. So that is the best response here - I don't know.

Good. Some messages before (Sep 27th's) I asked you: 'Is not "getting lost in story" what is actually happening? How can you know that what is actually happening is different from "getting lost in stoy"? What is telling you about that?'
(I find very illustrative, only in this context, to say 'flowering' instead of 'AE of being a flower') Are you saying that when a thought arise there is not AE of a thought arising?
Can thoughts continue arising and passing in AE?
What makes a difference between 'thinking' and 'flowering'? Is there any?

Could looking by itself tell, that it is something separate from hearing or sensing?

Nope... just a glimpse of this though....

What is telling you about this glimpse? Where is this glimpse coming from? Is it a habit? A mental patron?
Previously, when looking at the flower glass, you said that in AE experience there was only seeing, what I understood you didn't experience any separation from the object, no subject, no object.
Do you find any fear or any other emotion that prevents you from answering just 'No"? Look carefully and bring up whatever you find?

Where only could you know this from?

I don't know... that response again...

Let's put it in a slightly different way.
When just looking, in AE, there is nothing telling about the separation of subject and object, what is making this separation?

my mind says consciousness if there needs to be a label... stuff coming and going...

Exactly. Consciousness, awareness, experiencing. How could we get rid of it! I love to let my body float on the sea, even letting go everything I can not let go of feeling, tasting, seeing through the eyelids, smelling, hearing and thinking, even there is no one following the thoughts. I recommend this exercise is very useful and also healthy.

It's my pleasure Sophia,
Love,
Luisa

[Sophia]

Hi Luisa...

Words can not describe AE as it is beyond concepts and labels, but we need to use words to communicate, that's why wording, avoiding get obsessed by it, it is very important. Is not this 'subtle quieter labeling' another way of labeling thoughts? Would you say that the 'subtle quieter labeling' is awareness of thoughts arising and passing?

Yes, I think saying that it is awareness of thoughts passing would do it...

As in the knowing there is only knowing, there is only experiencing. But the known (glass flower) meaning the concept can only appear in thoughts. Check if this resonates with your view in AE, please.

Yes certainly when I first look at the glass flower it only appears in concepts/thoughts and then when I go into AE with the flower there is knowing.... okay, I think I just got the difference between seeing and knowing. In seeing say, there can still be a subtle labeling of the seen... in knowing, which seems more subtle than seeing.... there is only knowing and while the knowing is of say 'glass flower' knowing doesn't need to verbalize that...

Can thoughts continue arising and passing in AE?

Yes, thank you for that clarity... I guess they're their own version of sound or sight... except its a thought...

What makes a difference between 'thinking' and 'flowering'? Is there any?

IN AE no... but then I'm remembering your suggestion that AE... not AE... AE... not AE is actually all AE, in that it is what is going on right now...

Could looking by itself tell, that it is something separate from hearing or sensing?

No... only the subtle awareness that just said as I was looking at the glass flower... "bird song' when bird started up...

What is telling you about this glimpse? Where is this glimpse coming from? Is it a habit? A mental patron?

So in my day at the moment i have the most clarity around these questions when I am here responding to them. I do try the questions again once or twice and I can see what I saw in the morning... There is still much habit of getting lost in a story of no consequence or to have the 'babbling commentator' commentate away... As I say this, I can also say that babbling is also seen to be the AE of that moment, rather than the physical environment say... I think I've just sprung a belief that in AE we would always be in the physical moment say, the room, the street... when it can be that and it can be sensations and it can be thoughts... I certainly see way more often that life just has its way of flowing and there isn't a self creating thoughts or what grabs attention. I also see though a belief a few days ago that there might need to be some 'co-operation' with life for good stuff to happen. Seriously, where did that one come from!!!

Previously, when looking at the flower glass, you said that in AE experience there was only seeing, what I understood you didn't experience any separation from the object, no subject, no object. Do you find any fear or any other emotion that prevents you from answering just 'No"? Look carefully and bring up whatever you find?

I don't experience fear around the question... the emotion would be doubt, the bubbling commentator saying 'are you certain about that now?' so there would be habits of doubt about describing AE as its new to me... and my habit has been that 'I like to know'...

Where only could you know this from?

Only AE or awareness could clearly say no or yes... the illusory self is where doubt is, and that too can arise in AE and dissipate there too...

Let's put it in a slightly different way. When just looking, in AE, there is nothing telling about the separation of subject and object, what is making this separation?

Nothing is separate... a thought might come along and say it is separate but really can anything be separate? Given that there has been the experience of no self initiator... even the thoughts of separation are thoughts appearing in AE. Certainly though, and this may sound a contradiction. There can be times when there is just knowing - no subject no object - and this can feel light and pleasant. There can be other times when it is still AE but there are racing thoughts for some reason, there just is... and so it doesn't feel so light or pleasant... When its not so pleasant there there is the habit of believing there is a self who can change those thoughts!!! So life will continue and we'll see, without expectation' what emerges...

Great Luisa... yes I do the floating exercise in the pool as the sea is still to cold here... well the sea is only warm in February and March... and i love it when your ears are under the water too so no sound.... just sensations... no boundaries and then boundaries...

Go well indeed... Sophia...

[Luisa]

Hi Sophia,

It's great that you can already see how mind patrons are working. You are doing a great job.

Yes certainly when I first look at the glass flower it only appears in concepts/thoughts and then when I go into AE with the flower there is knowing.... okay, I think I just got the difference between seeing and knowing. In seeing say, there can still be a subtle labeling of the seen... in knowing, which seems more subtle than seeing.... there is only knowing and while the knowing is of say 'glass flower' knowing doesn't need to verbalize that...

Imagine you are in front of a new object, before you know about the object, its name, its features and functions do you still see an object? Do you need to label it first in order to see it?
Pick up another object, say a cup. Look at it:
Do you see the cup immediately when directing your sight to it? do you need to wait for labels or thoughts about it? when thoughts with different content arise, do you still see the cup?

Is there someone there going into AE? Is there someone making a decision to go into AE? Is not AE happening always simultaneously?

I apologize as maybe I haven't be clear enough here. I will try to be more clear in these concepts now:

In human beings there are the five senses (tasting, seeing, hearing, smelling, sensing), plus the mental factor thinking. The objects of the six senses (flavors, objects, sounds, scents, sensations and thoughts) are known through conceptualization what implies an object to be known and a subject that knows. But this is not the only possible way of perceiving reality. The other way is, as you already know AE, where the limited conceptual mind (the self) is not the king and the driver.

As we agree previously in AE there is not flavor but tasting, not objects but seeing..not content of thoughts but just thoughts. As the seeing, tasting, smelling are not conceptualized all of them result or converge in just knowing. So we say in the seeing there is only seeing, meaning that there is not an object that is saw neither a subject that is making the seeing and 'seeing' means the same as 'knowing'.

I hope this is more clear now. Stay with this and make as many experiments as you feel you need, please fell free to ask as many questions you need to clarify this before we continue investigating other areas.

I don't experience fear around the question... the emotion would be doubt, the bubbling commentator saying 'are you certain about that now?' so there would be habits of doubt about describing AE as its new to me... and my habit has been that 'I like to know'...

Indeed, the commentator, the self is the only one can doubt, the self is the only one who wants to know. Who else would urge to know everything or anything except the self? Is 'are you certain about that now?' anything else but a thought?

I understand you very well as I have been in the same place and still am. When you say 'there would be habits of doubt about describing AE as its new to me' again, is this anything else but a thought? Day by day the patrons change so it is more 'automatic' to report from direct experience, but even when we still have the habit of believing thoughts if from time to time LOOK and report from what is just happening without allowing concepts to interfere, can be there any doubt or confusion? Is there anyone to doubt or being confused?

Love,
Luisa

[Sophia]

Hi Luisa,

It's great that you can already see how mind patrons are working.

Can I ask a question about the quote above, can you explain 'mind patrons' a little more fully so I know I understand it... Many thanks.

Imagine you are in front of a new object, before you know about the object, its name, its features and functions do you still see an object? Do you need to label it first in order to see it?

Yes there would be/is seeing the object before labeling... always. For example if I go into the bush and hear a bird sound I've never heard before... always there are a couple of seconds just directly experiencing the sound before mind comes in and wonders what bird that is...

Pick up an object, say a cup. Look at it: Do you see the cup immediately when directing your sight to it?

Yes I do...

do you need to wait for labels or thoughts about it?

No I don't...

When thoughts with different content arise, do you still see the cup?

There is a subtle difference here... as I look at the cup and think about something entirely different I can still see the cup but it seems to have gone into the background a little and thoughts are in the foreground. Perhaps I can vaguely do to two things at once. I can look at the cup and hear a bird out the window, but I think which ever sense is 'on' is in the foreground... so it can be like cup... bird song.... cup... birdsong... so not two things at once just things in quick succession. However in AE it doesn't feel in succession just flowing...

Is there someone there going into AE? Is there someone making a decision to go into AE? Is not AE happening always simultaneously?

There is always AE present... and at some level within sleep too perhaps. there isn't someone going into AE, or someone making the decision to go into AE... there is slipping into content of thoughts, or labelling, but I can't find a doer of that...

The commentator, the self is the only one can doubt, the self is the only one who wants to know. Who else would urge to know everything except the self? Is 'are you certain about that now?' anything else but a thought?

Yes, I see that... this self, myself - has always had a strong need to know... I can also see that in AE there is no need to know in that same way (as there is no self experiencing AE)...

Day by day the patrons change so it is more 'automatic' to report from direct experience,

So again, what is the concept of 'patrons' used here? Is this saying that the 'self commentator' who babbles' does that commentary change in time as there is less getting hooked on/by the content of self thoughts...

Can be there any doubt or confusion? Is there anyone to doubt or being confused?

Ultimately no of course. So can I ask... in the time since you undertook this process that I am in with you... what have you noticed in terms of getting lost in the content of thoughts, or lost in objects, or lost in sounds... and I'm not asking this to create an expectation - in fact you don't even need to reply because at some point I may find that out... however, if you felt it might be helpful to reply then I'd be happy to hear your response.

Also, it was VERY helpful your explanation of the six senses... you explained that very clearly and I appreciated it greatly, very helpful... thank you indeed, and be well... Sophia

[Luisa]

Hello Sophia,

Lol. I'm sorry I was using a Spanish word there, I meant patterns no patrons.

Yes there would be/is seeing the object before labeling... always. For example if I go into the bush and hear a bird sound I've never heard before... always there are a couple of seconds just directly experiencing the sound before mind comes in and wonders what bird that is...

Is it the hearing previous to thought 'sound'? Would this apply to the six senses? Please make the experiment with all the senses, also with thoughts, can thoughts arise without classify or label their content? Please investigate carefully, report ONLY from direct experience.

There is a subtle difference here... as I look at the cup and think about something entirely different I can still see the cup

Here you are responding from actual experience.

but it seems to have gone into the background a little and thoughts are in the foreground

Here you are thinking.
I don't mean your answer is wrong I just want to point for you to see the difference.

so it can be like cup... bird song.... cup... birdsong... so not two things at once just things in quick succession

Here you are describing the movement of the attention. I will ask in a different way:
Can you stop hearing?
Can you stop seeing?
Can you stop smelling?
Can you stop sensations?
Can the senses be blocked at all?

However in AE it doesn't feel in succession just flowing...

I can not stress more that I expect you to answer ALWAYS from actual experience, not from what you already know or you think you know, not from what you have heard or guess or imagine. This is what we are supposed to do here.

There is always AE present... and at some level within sleep too perhaps. there isn't someone going into AE, or someone making the decision to go into AE... there is slipping into content of thoughts, or labelling, but I can't find a doer of that...

Exactly Sophia AE, or awareness, is ALWAYS present. Is in 'slipping into content of thoughts, or labelling' awareness of 'slipping into content of thoughts, or labelling' at any point?

what have you noticed in terms of getting lost in the content of thoughts, or lost in objects, or lost in sounds...

Of course every person has her particular experience. What I can say is that there is not a big change in that way or in anyway, so don't expect much about it, all continue the same but the illusion of a self 'getting lost in the content of thoughts' etc, is weakening and weakening. Sometimes it appears to step back as the habit of believing in the 'I' has being reinforced for years but once saw that the 'I' is an illusion to believe in it is as absurd as to go back and believe that Santa Claus exists.

Be well, love,
Luisa

[Sophia]

Hello Luisa...

Okay 'patterns' makes much more sense and I'm sorry that English mightn't even be your second language - you're doing exceedingly well...

Is it the hearing previous to thought 'sound'?

Yes it is...

Would this apply to the six senses?

Please make the experiment with all the senses, also with thoughts, can thoughts arise without classify or label their content? Please investigate carefully, report ONLY from direct experience.

Yes, awareness notices a sea gull, hears a dog snort, senses the keyboard - (I'll try it with dinner tonight) directly before thoughts come in... I am so habituated to getting lost in content of thoughts before just noticing thought when I go about my day... When I sit in meditation I can very easily just notice thoughts coming and going without getting lost in them. I tried that just now here at the computer and when awareness rests at what might feel about the tummy level then thoughts can be seen as just thoughts without getting lost in their content.

Here you are thinking. I don't mean your answer is wrong I just want to point for you to see the difference.

Yes, I see the difference... very subtle, thank you for pointing that out...

Here you are describing the movement of the attention.

Luisa, can you tell me more about the movement of attention please? Is attention an aspect of awareness or the same as awareness?

I will ask in a different way: Can you stop hearing? Can you stop seeing? Can you stop smelling? Can you stop sensations?

No, Right now it is quite at the same time I hear a lawn mower, and the sea... actually that is just sound... then awareness goes to fingers typing noticing stopping typing... without thoughts just awareness enabling tissue paper, stapler or whatever to be seen... not much story line going with it...

Can the senses be blocked at all?

No, obviously I can close a door to keep some sound out... but awareness is just allowing whatever is in the area to be seen or heard or...

Is in 'slipping into content of thoughts, or labeling' awareness of 'slipping into content of thoughts, or labeling' at any point?

Okay I see labeling going on up here... I just sat here with eyes closed for a few minutes to rest... I noticed that there was listening, noticing thoughts, labeling, listening, comfort,...

what have you noticed in terms of getting lost in the content of thoughts, or lost in objects, or lost in sounds...

I was out walking about an hour ago, and I noticed that I could walk and just be in seeing without labeling, and I saw how 'enjoyment' didn't diminish, in fact it was stunning... I was 'lost' in beach flowers (AE) but not in labeling of beach flowers. For the past few days there has been very little 'strident commentator/story teller/figure it all out' thoughts so that has been light relief, well lovely relief...

Thank you very much for your last comment too, perhaps that was something of what I was referring to in my last comment... glimpses of that anyway.

Now tomorrow morning I go away for three nights and won't have access to this computer only a small phone so not good for responding on... so you have some days off... and I'll have some days of noticing...

Speak again soon.... much thanks indeed, Sophia...

[Luisa]

Great Sophia!

Just let me know when you are ready to continue.

Have a wonderful retreat.
Luisa

[Sophia]

I'm back Luisa and ready to begin again... many thanks, Pip

[Luisa]

Glad to meet you again Sophia. I hope everything went well.

First I want to recommend you to read the whole thread to re-engage at the same point we leave it. After doing so continue reading here.

Simply stated, direct experience is the data from the senses (seeing, hearing, smelling, etc.), prior to interpretation by the mind. Direct experience is what is happening here and now.

Yes, awareness notices a sea gull, hears a dog snort, senses the keyboard - (I'll try it with dinner tonight) directly before thoughts come in... I am so habituated to getting lost in content of thoughts before just noticing thought when I go about my day... When I sit in meditation I can very easily just notice thoughts coming and going without getting lost in them. I tried that just now here at the computer and when awareness rests at what might feel about the tummy level then thoughts can be seen as just thoughts without getting lost in their content.

It is very important how we use language to deconstruct the illusion. Is awareness noticing a sea gull or is there only hearing in awareness? Don't answer from intellect, sit quietly LOOK and bring the answer from what you see not from what you know.

Luisa, can you tell me more about the movement of attention please? Is attention an aspect of awareness or the same as awareness?

Better you look for your own answers. Stir with eyes closed for 15 minutes and watch attention movement.
What makes it shift?
How does it work?
What has been noticed?

Find the difference between awareness and attention
Can awareness be fixed or located at the tummy level?

[Sophia]

Hi Luisa... so I have read back again from the top of this page...

It is very important how we use language to deconstruct the illusion. Is awareness noticing a sea gull or is there only hearing in awareness? Don't answer from intellect, sit quietly LOOK and bring the answer from what you see not from what you know.

Thank you for the reminder about language... There is seeing light in awareness, sensing the keyboard in awareness, seeing other objects, colors, shapes etc... It is 5am so only hearing silence at the moment... So, yes - awareness isn't seeing - only seeing in awareness.

Luisa, can you tell me more about the movement of attention please? Is attention an aspect of awareness or the same as awareness? Better you look for your own answers. Sit with eyes closed for 15 minutes and watch attention movement.
What makes it shift?

So just sat for 15 minutes... there was awareness, there was hearing silence, noticing thoughts, silence, sip of drink (both just an action then some commentary), taste, 'commentary babble, silence, spaciousness, I couldn't find attention anywhere... There was a thought going by every now and then 'where is attention?' but I couldn't locate attention anywhere or within seeing, or within thoughts, or within noticing thoughts...

How does it work? What has been noticed?

What was noticed was that objects, or thoughts or silence just bubble up and down, without any intention by 'me' to orchestrate that... they appear on their own, or arise on their own and then go on their own... there wasn't any 'energy of attention' trying to keep a thought in view, or keep silence in view or keep anything in view...

Find the difference between awareness and attention

So from this time just sitting... awareness (this is going to be difficult to explain) just was without effort to exist in anyway... and I don't know what the word 'exist' is referring to!!! But there was an experience of awareness say.... that had no strings attached... no energy of moving towards (or away) what appeared as silence or of sensation... or of thought. Then as said, I couldn't find attention anywhere...

Can awareness be fixed or located at the tummy level?

When I first start to shift from say looking at my reading glasses as an object to just noticing seeing - I have had a habit of noticing that awareness as a spaciousness located below my chest... and in the past this has helped to move out of where thinking felt to be located - around my head/brain... As I do it now in AE with eyes closed what pops into that awareness is an inner sense of weight of body (labels I know, but need to explain) then noticing breathing, then noticing no fixed location of awareness, then noticing thoughts arise and fall away... there is a sense that these 'actions' or noticing or experiences are say happening in proximity to what I know is 'my' body rather say happening in another room, but in no fixed part of that body or only say within the body...

Its good to be back Luisa... I hope all is well with you - Sophia