Wispered Dreams

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,

Notice the sensation of bottom on chair – what is that – a thought?

Just a thought as bottom and chair do not exist to actually experience.

Notice the ‘me’ ‘mine labels e.g. this is my bottom – but look closely at that sensation labelling – is it yours, or just coming and going along with thoughts, ever changing. Is it the thought that wants to own?

Thoughts rise and fall away and are always of labels and ownership and shoulds and woulds, but there really is no 'I' to own anything and no items to own, no shape and no colour to notice just erroneous interpretations of thoughts that spawn appearance. All illusion. To sit on the chair, an I, a body and a chair must be imagined, not to mention all the rest. When looked at deeply enough, there is only no-thing, an awareness that there is no-thing, but definitely no-thing, and yet thoughts seem to arise and fall away giving the illusion of things.

How many sensations do you notice? 2? One bottom sensation, and one chair sensation? How is that possible?

There is only one bottom sensation and then thoughts.

Where does one sensation end and another begin? Locate that line. Can you feel that line? Or is that thought? Can you sense that line – or is that thought explaining the sensation?

That is definitely thoughts giving the appearance of a line separating and explaining the sensation.

Eyes closed. Turn your attention to your skin. Do you have Direct Experience of it being outside?

No, skin is not on the outside of anything and when attention is turned to the skin, I am aware that there is no skin to be aware of and no boundries that confine the appearance of the body. Like a kind of blur with everything running into everything else but loosely defined by colour tone, and no, I don't need glasses. lol.
Thank you so much
Ormus xxx

[Sarah7]

Lovely noticing Ormus.
Have fun with smell and taste. See if there is any separation experienced. Let me know what is noticed! :)
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah

Have fun with smell and taste. See if there is any separation experienced. Let me know what is noticed! :)

I did have fun with taste. I had to drink a lot to discover that the sensation of taste came before the thoughts and I enjoyed confirming my findings! I didn't have so much fun with smell but I can 't find any separation in either case.
Thanks so much
Ormus xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Ormus
So let's have little look at the body bearing in mind what has been looked at for the past few exercises.

Are you in the body looking out, of the body as a whole or in certain part of the body? If all – then will you exist if you cut your hair, lose an arm or lose weight? If in a part – which part? Is there a time when the self is not experienced? Did the self chose to not experience itself? Did it chose to come back at some point? Or did that just happen? When you had no sense of self – did you disappear?
What is our direct experience of the body? Is it the same as the idea we have about it? Do you see the whole or fragments that are collected together from memory to make a whole? And does that thought give us the impression of solidity, permanence and reality? Are the fragments ever seen without an aspect of the world – e.g. I am writing this in bed and I see my hands writing surrounded by duvet? As with the seeing exercise the total visual field – one seamless whole, made only of seeing. Is it thought that artificially divides? Is it as the TV screen, one seamless whole? From the point of view of the object – all items are separate, but what about from the point of view of the screen? Is anything separate or independent or is there just the screen?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,

Are you in the body looking out, of the body as a whole or in certain part of the body? If in a part – which part? If all – then will you exist if you cut your hair, lose an arm or lose weight?

I am not in the body at all.

Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Yes.

Did the self chose to not experience itself? Did it chose to come back at some point? Or did that just happen?

No. It just happened, self cannot choose as it is only a thought.

When you had no sense of self – did you disappear?

No.

What is our direct experience of the body?

I cannot directly experience the body.

Is it the same as the idea we have about it?

Yes, I experience the body as ever changing ideas that suggest there could be a body.

Do you see the whole or fragments that are collected together from memory to make a whole?

I see fragments, not the whole.

And does that thought give us the impression of solidity, permanence and reality?

No permanence, always changing, always shifting.

Are the fragments ever seen without an aspect of the world – e.g. I am writing this in bed and I see my hands writing surrounded by duvet?

Yes, the fragments can be viewed as objects, especially when looking inside the body.

As with the seeing exercise the total visual field – one seamless whole, made only of seeing. Is it thought that artificially divides?

Yes, as with seeing, it is thought that divides.

Is it as the TV screen, one seamless whole?

Yes, it is one seamless whole.

From the point of view of the object – all items are separate, but what about from the point of view of the screen? Is anything separate or independent or is there just the screen?

There is just the screen, exactly like in a dream.
Thank you so much
Ormus xxx

[Sarah7]

Hey
Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around. Walking, eating, typing, dressing yourself, etc. Is there a WHO living your life? Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life? Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought that owns and directs the body.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,
I looked though out the day, as suggested, and I couldn't find anything controlling the body movement. Thought is not moving the body. If it was, there would have to be a thought for every minute detail involved in the most basic of body actions. From what I can tell, thought appears to be narrating life, rather than controlling it.
Thank you so much
Ormus xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Ormus
Your first post. Can you look at each and give me examples please. As may as are an issue.

I understand that although I have read and understood the theory, there is a deeper level of the certainty of 'knowing' that can make the experience of no-self permeate every aspect of life. In other words, I've 'got' it, but I don't 'have' it and I want it - I just don't seem to be able to 'get' it by myself.

Guidance to remove all the barriers/delusions that prevent me from cutting the ties to the illusion of self and the experience of separation, so I can clearly see/feel/get that there never was a self.

I am expecting that my guide will be able to detect, and assist me to remove, all barriers/ delusions that prevent the experience of no-self and that enable me to maintain the experience of separation.

Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,

Your first post. Can you look at each and give me examples please.

I am happy to comply however, unfortunately, I don't understand what you want me to do here...
Would you like me to clarify what I wrote then? Or, clarify where I am now in relation to what I wrote then?

As may as are an issue.

I don't understand this. As 'many' as are an issue...? or..As 'many' are an issue....?
A bit confused here.
Thank so much
Ormus xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Ormus

I understand that although I have read and understood the theory, there is a deeper level of the certainty of 'knowing' that can make the experience of no-self permeate every aspect of life. In other words, I've 'got' it, but I don't 'have' it and I want it - I just don't seem to be able to 'get' it by myself.

What does knowing mean to you? How will you know you have reached it? What do you mean by permeate every aspect of life?

What is 'I've got it' and 'but I don't have it' and 'I want it' examples of? In relation to what you have looked at here?

Guidance to remove all the barriers/delusions that prevent me from cutting the ties to the illusion of self and the experience of separation, so I can clearly see/feel/get that there never was a self.

What does remove all delusions that prevent me from cutting the ties to..... mean to you? Is separation an issue?

What is 'there never was a self' an example of?

I am expecting that my guide will be able to detect, and assist me to remove, all barriers/ delusions that prevent the experience of no-self and that enable me to maintain the experience of separation.

Who or what enables?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,

What does knowing mean to you?

'Knowing,' in this case, would be the actual experience of.

How will you know you have reached it?

If I was very lucky (lol), an actual experience delineating a change in the substance or quantity of thoughts but probably by just a difference in the quality of egoic thoughts after 'seeing' there is no self.

What do you mean by permeate every aspect of life?

As 'seeing' there is no actual self is consistantly applied to all stories, thought streams, etc. it appears to make sense that all conclusions and ideas that would have been drawn by a self would change.

What is 'I've got it' and 'but I don't have it' and 'I want it' examples of? In relation to what you have looked at here?

I have read the book and now the forum extensively and understand the concepts completely, so I have 'got it'. I do not appear to have experience of living no-self, so I do not 'get it' and who would not want to live without an egoic self?

What does remove all delusions that prevent me from cutting the ties to..... mean to you?

Thoughts erect artificial barriers that stop us seeing that there is no self, by removing the barriers, it can be clearly seen that 'I', as a separate entity, does not exist.

Is separation an issue?

As in a computer virus, a 'self' seen as separate from true being would not be desirable.

What is 'there never was a self' an example of?

It is an example of logic. If the self does not truly exist now, and now is truly all there is, then it is a logical assumption that the self never did truly exist.

Who or what enables?

In this case, it is a thought of a self that enables an imagined experience of separation from all that truly is.
Thank you so much
Ormus xxx

[Sarah7]

Morning Ormus

If I was very lucky (lol), an actual experience delineating a change in the substance or quantity of thoughts but probably by just a difference in the quality of egoic thoughts after 'seeing' there is no self.

Do 'you' think on perpose? Do you bring them, send them away, control them in any way?
Is there an expectation that thought will cease? Have you gone to war with thought? Are they to be got rid of? What is it that wants that? Another thought? What is bothered by thought? Another thought?
Is there a thought or lots of thoughts saying 'this isn't it because this .......etc'?

As 'seeing' there is no actual self is consistantly applied to all stories, thought streams, etc. it appears to make sense that all conclusions and ideas that would have been drawn by a self would change.

Why? You think you will never use the word I again? Or me? Is this again expectation? And a 'this isn't it' thought?

I asked: What is 'I've got it' and 'but I don't have it' and 'I want it' examples of?
Are these examples of thoughts?

I have read the book and now the forum extensively and understand the concepts completely, so I have 'got it'. I do not appear to have experience of living no-self, so I do not 'get it' and who would not want to live without an egoic self?

In comparison to what? What are you comparing here? Are you comparing your own direct experience to what is read? And again is there a 'I haven't got it' thought? What do you BELIEVE should go for this to be got? What makes 'this' NOT it?

Thoughts erect artificial barriers that stop us seeing that there is no self, by removing the barriers, it can be clearly seen that 'I', as a separate entity, does not exist.

Are you looking in thought content here? Or at what is actually happening in direct experience?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,

If I was very lucky (lol), an actual experience delineating a change in the substance or quantity of thoughts but probably by just a difference in the quality of egoic thoughts after 'seeing' there is no self.
Do 'you' think on perpose?

No.

Do you bring them, send them away, control them in any way?

No.

Is there an expectation that thought will cease?

No.

Have you gone to war with thought?

No, they just are.

Are they to be got rid of?

No.
What is it that wants that? Another thought?
Just another thought.

What is bothered by thought? Another thought?

Just another thought.

Is there a thought or lots of thoughts saying 'this isn't it because this .......etc'?

Could be, not seeing it at the moment.

"As 'seeing' there is no actual self is consistantly applied to all stories, thought streams, etc. it appears to make sense that all conclusions and ideas that would have been drawn by a self would change."
Why? You think you will never use the word I again? Or me? Is this again expectation? And a 'this isn't it' thought?

Yes, it is, I can see that now.

I asked: What is 'I've got it' and 'but I don't have it' and 'I want it' examples of?
Are these examples of thoughts?

Yes, of course.

"I have read the book and now the forum extensively and understand the concepts completely, so I have 'got it'. I do not appear to have experience of living no-self, so I do not 'get it' and who would not want to live without an egoic self?"
In comparison to what? What are you comparing here? Are you comparing your own direct experience to what is read?

Of course, I was comparing it to what I read!

And again is there a 'I haven't got it' thought?

Of course there is!

What do you BELIEVE should go for this to be got?

Well, thoughts, of course, lol.

What makes 'this' NOT it?

Thoughts, of course - ha, ha, ha.

"Thoughts erect artificial barriers that stop us seeing that there is no self, by removing the barriers, it can be clearly seen that 'I', as a separate entity, does not exist."
Are you looking in thought content here? Or at what is actually happening in direct experience?

In thought content, of course. In direct experience there are no thought barriers and no one to erect them. That's it!
Thank you so much
Ormus xxx

[Sarah7]

Morning Ormus

Could be, not seeing it at the moment.

Ok so have a look round this one. Every time you 'think' you are not there, that this isn't it, write down what tells you that. Then look, is it actually true. What is actually happening in that moment to what is thought to be happening. :)

Of course, I was comparing it to what I read!

Everything should be verified independently. Just coz it's written doesn't make it so. This is about what IS experienced not what is IS NOT experienced. Do you see? What happens when comparison is experienced? Thoughts? Emotions? Suffering? Etc?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Ormus]

Hi Sarah,

Ok so have a look round this one. Every time you 'think' you are not there, that this isn't it, write down what tells you that. Then look, is it actually true. What is actually happening in that moment to what is thought to be happening. :)

Yes, I see it clearly now. Those thoughts about not having it are just thoughts about not having it. In actual experience, those thoughts are definitely not true.

Everything should be verified independently. Just coz it's written doesn't make it so. This is about what IS experienced not what is IS NOT experienced. Do you see? What happens when comparison is experienced? Thoughts? Emotions? Suffering? Etc?

Yes, absolutely! I see it clearly now.
Thank you so much
Ormus xxx