Take two!

[Bobf]

Hi Kay,

None of your text was in blue - I'll try to answer as appropriate.

To me it sounds like that you don’t want to have to LOOK to see what it is exactly that is questioning, wanting, selfing, hoping, seeking etc. Because if you actually looked when these ideas appeared, you would see that all they were, are thoughts appearing and are pointing to nothing but further thoughts and that there is actually no one thinking these thoughts.

Actually, I am LOOKING. I'll try to do it more often.

The expectation that there will be a huge experience trumpeting the fact that you have seen, perhaps with angels and glowing white lights and a booming voice saying….welcome home son! You are wanting something different, something exciting to happen…and perhaps you are disappointed because it’s quite ordinary.

Although a huge experience would be great, I'm not expecting that. The only "hope" is that there will be a moment of certainty when I look for self. For example, right now I just LOOKED and didn't find a self. But the thought then arose that there could be one, even if its not found in AE. If you ask the photons of light emanating from a flashlight if there's a "source" that they're coming from, they couldn't find anything (since they're moving away from it). But that doesn't mean there's no flashlight. Not a good metaphor, but the best I can think of at the moment. Maybe repeated looking and not finding a source will ultimately result in certainty.

It took me months of looking after my initial seeing for the recognition to become a knowing,

When you had your "initial seeing", at that moment were you sure there was no self?

So, did you go back in your thread and have a look at the exercise given about ‘location’ and redo that exercise so as to see if sensation or anything is actually happening in a location?

Not yet, but will do.

Remember that tomorrow through Wednesday I may have wireless issues. Will keep LOOKING, but not sure if I'll be able to respond.

Have a good weekend!
Bob

[forgetmenot]

Hey Bob,

Although a huge experience would be great, I'm not expecting that. The only "hope" is that there will be a moment of certainty when I look for self. For example, right now I just LOOKED and didn't find a self. But the thought then arose that there could be one, even if its not found in AE. If you ask the photons of light emanating from a flashlight if there's a "source" that they're coming from, they couldn't find anything (since they're moving away from it). But that doesn't mean there's no flashlight. Not a good metaphor, but the best I can think of at the moment. Maybe repeated looking and not finding a source will ultimately result in certainty.

It is as simple as that….LOOKING and seeing that no inherent self can be found. Yes, thoughts will appear saying all sorts of things…but what exactly does a thought know? Thoughts about a self don’t stop appearing. Going back to what I have said several times…there was no self before this exploration started, there isn’t one now and thoughts about a self have always appeared….why would they stop now?

The only thing you can do is LOOK….and if in the looking you can’t find a self, then there is not much more anyone can do. No extra pointing is going to help you see further through the illusory self…it has already been seen, and there is no guarantees that come with the seeing, only that it will be seen that there is no separate self.

There is a ‘what if’ fear here….what is that fear?

It took me months of looking after my initial seeing for the recognition to become a knowing,

When you had your "initial seeing", at that moment were you sure there was no self?

Just like you, Bob, I had seen there was no self…but just as I wrote, I had to LOOK daily to arrive at the knowing of it. I am not here to convince you of anything…that is why we point so that you can see for yourself. What you do with that seeing is up to you. The concept of the separate self doesn’t disappear just because the seeing that there is no separate self has been seen.

Perhaps instead of questioning your seeing of this, it is to investigate the thoughts that appear about the seeing.

So, did you go back in your thread and have a look at the exercise given about ‘location’ and redo that exercise so as to see if sensation or anything is actually happening in a location?

Not yet, but will do.

Great. Also look at the thought exercises again. We will leave it here until you get back from your days away.

Love, Kay
xx

[Bobf]

Hi Kay,

Had a crisis with one of my daughters so have been out of commission. Will post tomorrow.

Bob

[Bobf]

Am still pretty swamped, but will post tomorrow. Sorry for the delay! Bob

[Bobf]

Hi Kay,

I'm back - its been a very difficult couple of weeks but I've tried to look when possible. If OK with you I'd like to focus in on two questions that I really want to get to the bottom of?

1. Is there a self in AE? When I look for a self, as I've mentioned, there's a feeling of focused tension somewhere in the head region. But as you've implied, tension can't think, sense, etc., so it doesn't make sense that this tension could be a self. That feeling continues to be there when I look, but as you've pointed out, why should "I" feel any differently in the absence of self?

2. When looking for a self, why are we only focusing on AE? In the "self world", the self is what does the seeing, thinking, sensing, etc. This means that, by definition, it can never be found in AE, just like hidden objects can't be found in AE. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. Right now (its daytime here), the moon doesn't exist in AE, but it does exist in objective reality. A blind person doesn't step out into the street even though they can't see cars, because they know that cars exist outside of AE.

I've made progress on the first question, but I continue to be stuck on the second. I realize that its a purely intellectual question that disappears in AE. But why are we limiting our search to AE?

I apologize if we've been through this before, but I really want to get past it. I am LOOKING as much as I can.

Hope all is well with you.

Bob

[forgetmenot]

Hello Bob,

1. Is there a self in AE? When I look for a self, as I've mentioned, there's a feeling of focused tension somewhere in the head region. But as you've implied, tension can't think, sense, etc., so it doesn't make sense that this tension could be a self. That feeling continues to be there when I look, but as you've pointed out, why should "I" feel any differently in the absence of self?

This is not about me implying anything. I am not here to teach you or convince you of anything….all I am here to do is point for you to LOOK. Whether or not you see what is being pointed at or what you do with what you see is up to you…but I am not here to convince you of anything. I asked you to LOOK and in that LOOKING did you find an “I” in that “feeling of focused tension somewhere in the head region”? If not…then what more are you wanting? It is that simple.

2. When looking for a self, why are we only focusing on AE? In the "self world", the self is what does the seeing, thinking, sensing, etc. This means that, by definition, it can never be found in AE, just like hidden objects can't be found in AE. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. Right now (its daytime here), the moon doesn't exist in AE, but it does exist in objective reality. A blind person doesn't step out into the street even though they can't see cars, because they know that cars exist outside of AE.

You are wanting explanations; a dialogue; an understanding. Again, this is not what this exploration is about. It is from LOOKING that even the above question would be answered for you and has nothing to do with what I think, but has everything to do with LOOKING.

I've made progress on the first question, but I continue to be stuck on the second. I realize that its a purely intellectual question that disappears in AE. But why are we limiting our search to AE?

You have answered your own question. It is purely an intellectual question that disappears in AE. If you are wanting more than the simplicity of pointing and LOOKING, then you really aren’t wanting to see through the illusory self….what you want is for someone to convince you so that you have 100% proof that there isn’t one. I can't give you that...no one can. I am going to assume that you have read many books etc about there being no separate self....did reading and talking about it bring you any clarity or the realisation of 'no self'? Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't have come here to see through the concept. That is why a realisation is the only way of seeing all of this, it is not gained through intellectual chit chat but through LOOKING consistently and constantly at what is being pointed at.

I apologize if we've been through this before, but I really want to get past it. I am LOOKING as much as I can.

No…you aren’t LOOKING, if you were LOOKING you would see that questions are just another appearing thought, as are doubtful thoughts, confusing thoughts etc..and then you would LOOK to see if there is an actual thinker of these thoughts. It doesn't matter how many times I point and you LOOK and see that there is no separate self, there is a BUT. You are wanting thought (or something) to confirm that there is no separate self. You can look to thought all you want…but thought knows nothing and is aware of nothing.

http://liberationunleashed.com/resource ... ar-seeker/

Love, Kay
xx

[Bobf]

Hi Kay,

I am LOOKING many times during the day and have been doing that for some time (for the last few months). When I LOOK for a self, in AE there is a feeling in the head region. Even without a label (e.g. its "tension" or its "contraction"), there is definitely a feeling in AE.

I've done this many times and, each time, there is this sensation. There is no clear knowing that its a self or that its not. I'm perfectly willing to continue doing this, if that's what you think it takes.

Bob

[forgetmenot]

I am LOOKING many times during the day and have been doing that for some time (for the last few months). When I LOOK for a self, in AE there is a feeling in the head region. Even without a label (e.g. its "tension" or its "contraction"), there is definitely a feeling in AE.

Read what you wrote. You're not LOOKING for the feeling you are LOOKING to see if you can find anything/anyone in the feeling. If you are saying the feeling is you...then find the you that is in that feeling and describe that you.

A sensation is a sensation...in other words it is simply a sensation! Thought then overlays the sensation with a story about it being located in something called a head and further points to the sensation and labels it a 'sense of self'. You got the gist of this when watching the soccer game with and without sound. When you replace the thought "this feeling/sensation is a sense of self" with blahblahblah...does the sensation leave? NO. When the thought leaves then how come the sensation remains? You are saying that the thought and sensation go hand in hand...well then test that hypothesis. You are expecting that the sensation labelled 'head' to disappear or that the idea of it being a head will disappear. It won't. You are not even aware of a head 24/7!

I've done this many times and, each time, there is this sensation. There is no clear knowing that its a self or that its not. I'm perfectly willing to continue doing this, if that's what you think it takes.

Bob, go back and do all the exercises that we done. We looked at thoughts, we looked at the idea of what the 'sense of self' in the head is, we looked at the solidity of the head. We have done it all. You persist in not recognising that thoughts are just thoughts and point to nothing but thoughts about actual experience. No matter what is being pointed at for you to LOOK at(and continously look when the idea that the sense of self resides in the head), when you LOOK and see that there is nothing there....you want more. There is no more. What you find in place of a head is sensation, but you want more. No amount of talking about it or extra pointing is going to make the idea of the sense of self, which is just an appearing sensation and thought, to leave, change or for thought to call it something else. Are you the author of thought, can you stop thoughts from appearing, can you predict what thought is going to appear? Can you not see that it is just an appearing thought that say that the sensation is a sense of self? Do thoughts know anything? You are not questioning thoughts when they appear by LOOKING to see each time it appears pointing to the sensation in the 'head, to see if what the thought is pointing at has any merit?

There is no where else to go with this exploration. You are not ready to accept that there is no self, because no matter how often you see that there is no one to be found anywhere, you still want more proof. There is no more proof other than for you to see there is no self when you look for one, it is as simple as that. And when looking and you don't see one...then where could it possibly hide when you look only to reappear later? And are you aware of the sensation in the head 24/7 and since it is supposed to be the sense of self...proof to you that a separate self exists...why aren't you aware of it every second of the day 24/7? If you are not aware of it 24/7 where does this sense of self disappear to when you aren't aware of it, and do you disappear with it?

Love, Kay
xx

[forgetmenot]

Hi Bob,

I have been thinking about how to point in a different way so that it might be of some help. If this doesn't help you to realise that there is no separate self...then I am all out of ideas.

For this exercise you will need to sit yourself near a clock that has an audible second hand.

Allow your eyes to close gently.

Listen to the sound. “Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock”

Focus on the tick tock. Attune to the sound itself. IGNORE any explanatory thoughts about what must be creating the sound.

Try to find the clock.

1. Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?
2. Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?
3. Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?
4. Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?
5. Do you find a clock beyond the sound?
6. In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?

Love, Kay
xx

[Bobf]

Hi Kay,

Things are pretty hectic today, so may have to post tomorrow.

Bob

[Bobf]

1. Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?
2. Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?
3. Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?
4. Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?
5. Do you find a clock beyond the sound?
6. In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?

I liked that exercise, and the answer to all the questions (including the last one) is clearly no - there is no clock in AE.

I'll let that sink in over the weekend!

Bob

[forgetmenot]

Terrific, Bob. Once you have let that sink in...then have a look at the following.

Focus on the ‘tension’ in the ‘head’. Attune to the sensation itself. IGNORE any explanatory thoughts about what must be creating the sensation or what the sensation is.

Try to find the self.

1. Going just by the sensation, do you find a self present?
2. Is there any direct/actual experience of a self in the sensation?
3. Does the sensation come self-labelled as originating from a self?
4. Do you find a self hidden in the sensation?
5. Do you find a self beyond the sensation?
6. In your direct/actual experience of the sensation, do you find any evidence that the sensation is caused by a self?

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish in your direct/actual experience of the ‘tension’ sensation, that there is a self?


Love, Kay
xx

[Bobf]

Terrific, Bob. Once you have let that sink in...then have a look at the following.

Focus on the ‘tension’ in the ‘head’. Attune to the sensation itself. IGNORE any explanatory thoughts about what must be creating the sensation or what the sensation is.

Try to find the self.
Hi Kay,

1. Going just by the sensation, do you find a self present?
2. Is there any direct/actual experience of a self in the sensation?
3. Does the sensation come self-labelled as originating from a self?
4. Do you find a self hidden in the sensation?
5. Do you find a self beyond the sensation?
6. In your direct/actual experience of the sensation, do you find any evidence that the sensation is caused by a self?

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish in your direct/actual experience of the ‘tension’ sensation, that there is a self?

I'm making progress here. With the clock exercise, it was obvious - there was no clock in AE, just the ticking. With this exercise, there appears to be a subtle thought ("this must be my self") accompanying the AE of tension in my head. The thought is so subtle that its hard to recognize it. But I see that its a thought, not a self. I'm going to keep doing this exercise to let it penetrate.

Bob

[forgetmenot]

I'm making progress here. With the clock exercise, it was obvious - there was no clock in AE, just the ticking. With this exercise, there appears to be a subtle thought ("this must be my self") accompanying the AE of tension in my head. The thought is so subtle that its hard to recognize it. But I see that its a thought, not a self. I'm going to keep doing this exercise to let it penetrate.

Terrific! You have become aware of the thought that insists that "this must be my self". ...

So, close your eyes and bring that thought "this must be my self" to the 'minds eyes'. See that thought "this must be my self" as if it's type written. Now you can see it clearly as just letters and words ie thought? Now do those words know anything about a 'self'? Are they the 'self'? Can you find a 'self' anywhere in those words?

Then bring your attention to the sensation "tension in my head". Leave all thoughts aside and just focus on the sensation. Now, is that 'tension' a 'self'? Can you find a 'self' in or behind that tension/sensation? Does the tension itself know anything about a 'self'?

When closing the eyes a 'mental' image or imprint/outline/idea of a head or eyes or forehead may arise. Ask that image if it knows anything about a 'self'. Can you find a 'self' anywhere in the image/outline?

Then have a look everywhere and see if you can find a 'self' anywhere. And if you think you have, have a careful LOOK to see if it is an actual self, or if it's just a thought, or feeling/sensation or colour/image.

When you are ready let me know when you want to continue to LOOK.

Love, Kay
xx

[Bobf]

Hi Kay,

Just as background, there was a crisis in my family a few weeks ago that I've been very preoccupied with. Things should settle down by next weekend.

Here's my experience with the recent exercises:

As I mentioned, the clock exercise works really well for me. I can unequivocally see that there's no clock in the ticking - there's no doubt. When I look for a self in the tension (and other sensations )in the "head" region, things get harder. The thought that "this tension is a self" is sometimes so subtle that its hard to disassociate it from the actual feeling- almost as if the tension comes prelabeled with a self label. It helped to visualize the sentence "this tension is a self" as simply letters floating in space - letters that couldn't possibly be a self.

So the difficulty for me is in seeing with certainty that "this tension is a self" Is just a thought. I recognize though that this vague sense that "head tension = self" isn't an AE. I'll persist with this.

Bob

Bob