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[JonathanR]

Hi Hazel,

It feels that there is nothing to do besides enjoying the sensations and appreciating this process as the water keeps pouring in through the trap door.

How lovely.

I'd like you to try an experiment please?

When you have a chance to do so, take a walk in nature. It could be up on the hills, down by the sea or a city park will do. It should be somewhere where life is happening all around, weather, sun, breeze or rain, grass, trees, sea, insects, birds, animals, people, sounds, smells, temperatures. All happening around. And also, your thoughts, feelings, sensations.

Perhaps close your eyes, or not, but become aware of all this movement happening together both 'outside' and 'inside'.

Now, look in all this experience, for an edge or line that marks where 'you' end and 'everything else' begins.

Plase try this and let me know if such an edge is found?

Best wishes,

Jon

[ShrugB1]

Hi Jon,
During the night I was having trouble sleeping because when I lie down the moving energy feels more intense. I was thinking about your nature walk suggestion and saw that although I've worked with sound in this way, I hadn't thought to work with energy movement and realised that I could dissolve the bed in order to give the energy more room. And I saw myself as just space breathing and how every breath in and out changes the whole world and that this applies to every living thing. Every breathing ant and blade of grass changes the world every moment. And there's a sense of nothing needs to be done because the world is breathing. And body parts appear temporarily as they are needed.
I spend a lot of time in my garden - it backs onto the South Downs and is rich in wild life. Today I went around looking at everything breathing itself into being. It's a breathing rhythm of its own which everything breathes in time to. I can choose to physically breathe to this rhythm and feel that we're all in this together. There is no edge or line as I can breathe with anything I can see. It occurs to me that this space breathing is the equivalent of invisible sparkling.
Best wishes
Hazel

[JonathanR]

Hi Hazel,

I hadn't thought to work with energy movement and realised that I could dissolve the bed in order to give the energy more room. And I saw myself as just space breathing and how every breath in and out changes the whole world and that this applies to every living thing. Every breathing ant and blade of grass changes the world every moment. And there's a sense of nothing needs to be done because the world is breathing.

Wonderful!

I spend a lot of time in my garden - it backs onto the South Downs and is rich in wild life. Today I went around looking at everything breathing itself into being. It's a breathing rhythm of its own which everything breathes in time to. I can choose to physically breathe to this rhythm and feel that we're all in this together. There is no edge or line as I can breathe with anything I can see

Ah the South Downs. I live only a couple of miles from them.

It's great that you could find this edgeless quality through noticing the way breathing happens, that there is no separation.

The next question then is, since there is no separation, is there a 'separate self' to be found anywhere in experience?

Best wishes,

Jon

[ShrugB1]

The next question then is, since there is no separation, is there a 'separate self' to be found anywhere in experience?

Hi Jon, This question drives me mad but I've just laughed at the thought that when the bed dissolved and there was no sense of a separate self, this experience was all about allowing a fading away of everything. But when the sense of separate self returns there's a disappointment that the no separate self experience has faded away. What was a nothing is being made into a something which is now being missed.
A few weeks ago I saw a toddler in a shop who wanted to get his hands on what he saw. He kept repeating; "grab it" .
This went on for about 10 minutes. It was quite sad. But I took it on board and remembered it today. I think it's about letting go of everything. I keep noticing after-images and how they seem briefly real but because they are after-images we don't try to hold onto them and they naturally fade. But I can see how everything is an after-image but there's a tendency to give texture to what is seen and this makes it seem more solid and important than it is. This is like not breathing out when it's time to - so there's a getting out of rhythm with the everything that's breathing.
I've also noticed that paradoxically if I let my hands dissolve they feel stronger.
Best wishes
Hazel

[JonathanR]

Hi Hazel,

. This question drives me mad but I've just laughed at the thought that when the bed dissolved and there was no sense of a separate self, this experience was all about allowing a fading away of everything. But when the sense of separate self returns there's a disappointment that the no separate self experience has faded away. What was a nothing is being made into a something which is now being missed.

Looks like there are two things here? On the one hand the dissolving experience where there was no separation and on the other, thoughts of or a feeling of separate self?

To help here, return to the senses, to sensations. This could be any or a combination of the five senses, seeing, hearing, touch, taste and smell. You seem to have a big affinity with Touch or Feel, so that sense may be worth exploring. As you have mentioned hands quite a lot, it's possible that simply relaxing into noticing the sensations there will be helpful.

But as I say, all five senses are worth exploring. Take hearing, for example.

Sit quietly somewhere, where you will not be disturbed. And simply start to notice whatever sounds are happening. Some will be very quiet, like the sound of breathing, some will be a little louder, a distant airplane? The hum of a fridge in another room? Some will be louder still, a wood pidgeon, people talking, a car passing...

Let it all come.

Now, right here and now, in this hearing, is there a 'self' that 'hears'?

Would you say that there is hearing going on?

But Is there a 'hearer, hearing'?

Notice a sound at some distance, chattering birds or something...

In this experience of hearing where do 'you' end and 'the sound' begin?


Warm regards,

Jon

[ShrugB1]

Hi Jon,

Looks like there are two things here? On the one hand the dissolving experience where there was no separation and on the other, thoughts of or a feeling of separate self?

Yes. I've had lots of experiences in which there was no sense of a separate self. It feels like being on a different energetic frequency. But then it's as if this frequency becomes "jammed" so that the separate self frequency takes over.
Once I was in a field as non separate self and a huge horse (not normally a fan) came galloping across the field towards me. "Normally" I would have made for the nearest stile but I just stood there completely unconcerned. But then somehow separate self frequency presents itself as a return to normality as if the horse incident wasn't really real. (Cinderella at midnight!!!)

What if what I experience as a non-separate self is a clever trick invention of the separate self? (the other side of the coin?)
And that it isn't possible to consciously experience the non separate self as there would be no self to know about it. What if the separate self seems to exist because it gains attachment by sometimes presenting itself as an appealing non separate self?
It's as if Bill and Ben are a couple. Bill is good company but Ben is tedious. But Ben manages to get invites by being with Bill.
I feel as if I've just become insane or just discovered that I've always been insane.
Thank you for reading this.
Hazel

[JonathanR]

Hi Hazel,

. But then it's as if this frequency becomes "jammed" so that the separate self frequency takes over.

Notice the circumstances around these times of 'jamming'. You say the separate self frequency takes over. So there is some change in the way things are perceived or imagined?

Notice if thoughts and conceptualisation becomes more prevalent at these times of jamming.

How about the times when no self is found? Is there as much mental chatter going on then or not?

. But then somehow separate self frequency presents itself as a return to normality as if the horse incident wasn't really real. (Cinderella at midnight!!!)

Is there a narrative or commentary at these times, 'saying' that 'the horse incident wasn't real''?

. What if what I experience as a non-separate self is a clever trick invention of the separate self? (the other side of the coin?)

Does it feel like a clever trick? But where is this 'separate self' ? Is it just the thought that one 'must exist' ? If there is this thing 'separate self', apprehend it. Track it down to its source and see if one is actually there?

. But Ben manages to get invites by being with Bill.

Could it be that Ben appears to exist because there are thoughts about a Ben and some of those thoughts are imagined to be thought up by a fictional Ben character?



Best wishes,

Jon

[ShrugB1]

Hi Jon, Thank you so much for your perceptive promptings and questions.

Could it be that Ben appears to exist because there are thoughts about a Ben and some of those thoughts are imagined to be thought up by a fictional Ben character?

Yes. I see that I identify with Bill (mind) who mistakenly thinks he knows what liberation feels like and is convinced that if it weren't for Ben (life) this feeling would be here all the time. Bill mistakes steps in the journey - (the temporary expansions) for the destination. It's like all those comedy double acts in which the stupid one is actually wise but the one who thinks he's wise is really stupid but projects his stupidity onto the wise one. (The king and the fool/jester in Shakespeare). Ben doesn't know what liberation is like but he knows he doesn't know and is at peace with that.
I have been acting as chauffeur for a neighbour -Ray -in his 80's - post operation. He provides a flow of instructions telling me how to drive. Usually there is a match between what he instructs and what I do. He sees, what I know is a coincidence, as proof that he's in charge when really I never follow his instructions. When there's a mismatch, his Bill tries to make me into Bill's version of Ben which makes me laugh.

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If there is this thing 'separate self', apprehend it. Track it down to its source and see if one is actually there?

I see that the sense of separate self arises when there is identification with mind which is only a stream of thoughts about life which are as unnecessary as Ray telling me how to drive. Once (women's lib) I would have been annoyed with Ray but the situation is so ridiculous that it's funny. And I'm very grateful to him for such a clear demonstration of how identification with mind makes a comedy feel like a tragedy. When there is identification with thought life seems serious, full of problems to solve with a need to be in control. But underneath this, Ben is always there at peace. Not Bill's version of Ben but BIG Ben who just IS before Bill made him into a fall guy.
It feels as if there is only one BIG Ben - as a communal presence/field. And that Bill is a bit of BIG Ben trying to exist separately from BIG Ben - which is impossible but can appear to be true in the world of mind. But it involves the exhausting effort of having to continually create a Bill by making BIG Ben into another bit called Ben that can then be belittled (in thought) to make Bill feel real and right and important.
Best wishes
Hazel

[JonathanR]

Dear Hazel,

My apologies for not yet replying to you. I was traveling for most of yesterday and WiFi was not available. I will write to you this evening though.

All best,

Job

[JonathanR]

Hello Hazel,
Hazel

Hi Jon, Thank you so much for your perceptive promptings and questions.

I'm very happy to assist. Thank you too.

Could it be that Ben appears to exist because there are thoughts about a Ben and some of those thoughts are imagined to be thought up by a fictional Ben character?

Yes. I see that I identify with Bill (mind) who mistakenly thinks he knows what liberation feels like and is convinced that if it weren't for Ben (life) this feeling would be here all the time. Bill mistakes steps in the journey - (the temporary expansions) for the destination. It's like all those comedy double acts in which the stupid one is actually wise but the one who thinks he's wise is really stupid but projects his stupidity onto the wise one. (The king and the fool/jester in Shakespeare).

I'm seeing Hardy glaring with disapproval at Laurel right now ;-)

Ben doesn't know what liberation is like but he knows he doesn't know and is at peace with that.

Could that actually be liberation?

I have been acting as chauffeur for a neighbour -Ray -in his 80's - post operation. He provides a flow of instructions telling me how to drive. Usually there is a match between what he instructs and what I do. He sees, what I know is a coincidence, as proof that he's in charge when really I never follow his instructions. When there's a mismatch, his Bill tries to make me into Bill's version of Ben which makes me laugh.

Hilarious!

You never follow his instructions and he is never in control the way he imagines himself to be. But how about you? Do you control the driving ?

In other words, how do things happen?

If there is this thing 'separate self', apprehend it. Track it down to its source and see if one is actually there?

I see that the sense of separate self arises when there is identification with mind which is only a stream of thoughts about life which are as unnecessary as Ray telling me how to drive. Once (women's lib) I would have been annoyed with Ray but the situation is so ridiculous that it's funny. And I'm very grateful to him for such a clear demonstration of how identification with mind makes a comedy feel like a tragedy. When there is identification with thought life seems serious, full of problems to solve with a need to be in control. But underneath this, Ben is always there at peace. Not Bill's version of Ben but BIG Ben who just IS before Bill made him into a fall guy. 
It feels as if there is only one BIG Ben - as a communal presence/field. And that Bill is a bit of BIG Ben trying to exist separately from BIG Ben - which is impossible but can appear to be true in the world of mind. But it involves the exhausting effort of having to continually create a Bill by making BIG Ben into another bit called Ben that can then be belittled (in thought) to make Bill feel real and right and important. 

What a great description. Thank you.

Is there a 'you' that creates Bill or, , does Bill just appear as thought, or perhaps a series of thoughts?

Is it possible to prevent the insight from appearing that Bill doesn't exist as a separate entity?

Best wishes,

Jon

[ShrugB1]

Hi Jon,

Could that actually be liberation?

Yes. It's as if Ben is free from identification with thought and has never been conditioned but Bill sees him as a liability because of this.

You never follow his instructions and he is never in control the way he imagines himself to be. But how about you? Do you control the driving ?

No. I was tempted to tell him once that he wasn't in control of the car and then to mischievously add that neither was I but I didn't think this would have been appreciated. When I don't look behind to reverse into his driveway as there's a reversing camera -he gets agitated even though he can see the image himself.

Is there a 'you' that creates Bill or does Bill just appear as thought, or perhaps a series of thoughts?

Bill is a collection of thoughts but they sort of add up to a character - a prophet of doom who sees himself as being helpful, sensible, responsible, in pointing out the need to keep struggling and being careful to not get it wrong or come to harm. It's a vicious circle because the thoughts seem to "work" in his world but they keep him confined to that world. It's focused on the past and future.

Is it possible to prevent the insight from appearing that Bill doesn't exist as a separate entity?

Yesterday there was a sudden mild sensation in my left thumb (which was seriously damaged and is still weak) and I felt very anxious. This has happened many times but for the first time I noticed that the sensation was followed by a stream of negative thoughts and that these caused the anxiety. It was as if this sensation was being interpreted as if were an action replay of the original accident. Then I saw the whole incident being played out by Bill and Ben. Bill really thought he was protecting Ben by switching on the alarm bells but Ben was completely unconcerned. Ben is like a calm receptive space aware only of well-being that already is. Freed from Bill's interpretation it was clear that a lot of energy was wanting to wash through - an expansion - and it did. Before I would have been identified with Bill and suffered and missed the experience of feeling this delicious meltedness. It's as if Ben is a portal into another world which can't be seen when there is identification with Bill. Ben lives in the present where what happens has nothing to do with what has happened before whereas Bill sees everything in terms of cause and effect which gives him a false sense of control.
It seems that my left thumb is the centre of resistance - Bill's last? refuge - a fearful slight chronic contraction. When it starts to relax there is fear that it will dislocate. It's like having a reversing camera but still going through the old performance of swiveling round to see. This thumb situation has been very stressful for three years but I appreciate how it has brought the Bill/Ben "story" into focus.
With gratitude
Hazel

[JonathanR]

Hello Hazel,

. Yes. It's as if Ben is free from identification with thought and has never been conditioned but Bill sees him as a liability because of this.

It has been very useful to speak in analogies such as Ben and Bill.

. Bill is a collection of thoughts but they sort of add up to a character - a prophet of doom who sees himself as being helpful, sensible, responsible, in pointing out the need to keep struggling and being careful to not get it wrong or come to harm. It's a vicious circle because the thoughts seem to "work" in his world but they keep him confined to that world. It's focused on the past and future.

Yes that paints a vivid picture.

When you say that thoughts 'keep him confined', how much does it seem to you that there actually is an entity or character 'Bill' that 'exists' and could be 'confined'?

. Yesterday there was a sudden mild sensation in my left thumb (which was seriously damaged and is still weak) and I felt very anxious. This has happened many times but for the first time I noticed that the sensation was followed by a stream of negative thoughts and that these caused the anxiety.

Its very helpful to have seen this.

. It's as if Ben is a portal into another world which can't be seen when there is identification with Bill. Ben lives in the present where what happens has nothing to do with what has happened before whereas Bill sees everything in terms of cause and effect which gives him a false sense of control.

Its wonderful that this becomes clear! And interesting that you mention this false perception of control.

How are things like Choice or Decision seen ? Is there a chooser that chooses between alternatives? Is there an entity that takes decisions?

Sending love,

Jon

[ShrugB1]

Hi Jon,

When you say that thoughts 'keep him confined', how much does it seem to you that there actually is an entity or character 'Bill' that 'exists' and could be 'confined'?

I see that Bill exists in the form of a computer programme that was used to maintain stability in a constant sea of change. It's a package of thoughts and beliefs that feel limiting and no longer relevant. An outdated programme. It feels that over a period of years there has been a process of gradual deletion of the programme but today it occurs to me that the programme is holographic and while there are any remaining links to it, the whole programme can be triggered. The deletion process was deletion of links. So fewer events can trigger the programme. But to be free there needs to be no links. No attachment to anything that the programme offers.

How are things like Choice or Decision seen ? Is there a chooser that chooses between alternatives? Is there an entity that takes decisions?

In the Bill programme there is an apparent constant decision-making process to do with survival, meeting desires, avoiding fears which creates the illusion of control and security.
It feels that there is a choice in how to regard what is arising: - with resistance which triggers the Bill programme or in trust that whatever is arising is just energy moving through space. It doesn't need a story.
But while the choice seems to need to keep being made, there is a chooser.
In my tennis playing days the invitation to be played through once arose and was accepted. It was such a wonderful experience to sense myself being moved around the court and seeing and feeling the shots being made through my body that this became the norm. There was no chooser as who would choose anything other than this.
I'm trying to find the attachment to the Bill programme. I have dreams about being in a new place and then discovering that I have lost my bag containing money, keys, necessary documents etc so spend my time anxiously looking for it.
When I moved into this house a few years ago, it became apparent that it was "haunted". I learned to work with an inner guide to release these thought forms. It was interesting to see that they all had different but unnecessary fears about moving on. The guide would show them how the limitations they were used to just didn't apply anymore. Like me not needing my bag. Not needing the Bill programme.
Such innocent looking questions - Thank you Jon
Hazel

[JonathanR]

Hello Hazel,

. The deletion process was deletion of links. So fewer events can trigger the programme. But to be free there needs to be no links. No attachment to anything that the programme offers.

Who or what is 'not free' now?

What would 'become free' ?

. It feels that there is a choice in how to regard what is arising: - with resistance which triggers the Bill programme or in trust that whatever is arising is just energy moving through space. It doesn't need a story.
But while the choice seems to need to keep being made, there is a chooser.

Yes, it seems that choices are necessary and that they are made. Remaining on the pavement happens instead of running out in front of a moving car, for example. But is it a chooser, 'me' or 'Bill' that chooses this?

We can look into this via a little exercise if you like? It examines 'choice'.

Sending love,

Jon

[ShrugB1]

Hi Jon,

Who or what is 'not free' now?

Bill. He is energy that is trapped in the form of a programme that appears to exist. He is the thoughts that tend to be held in form, to be taken seriously as opposed to thoughts that automatically fade like after-images.

What would 'become free' ?

Energy that came from amoeba Ben? and would naturally dissipate back into Ben but is presently trapped in Bill form. It fears dissolving back into Ben as it sees this as death. But really it is already a ghost.

Yes, it seems that choices are necessary and that they are made. Remaining on the pavement happens instead of running out in front of a moving car, for example. But is it a chooser, 'me' or 'Bill' that chooses this?

When I was playing tennis there was no chooser about what was happening. There was consciousness experiencing itself play tennis. But there was an apparent chooser who decided that Ben would play and not Bill.
Yesterday when the hand sensations arose I chose Ben. The sensations became stronger and as they ended, energy moved through the amoeba. It occurs to me that this was some old Bill energy freeing and returning to flow in Ben.
So there appears to be a chooser because there appears to be a choice. But if the choice is always Ben, there is no need for a chooser and Bill is restored to flow in Ben. And then there is only Ben and Ben always chooses Ben.
Bill seems to be "helpful" in preventing the sensation from becoming stronger, as if thinking and anxiety is a way of using up the energy of the sensation. Without Bill's intervention, the sensation becomes stronger but it's as if this allows it to gather the momentum to return to flow - to overcome inertia.
It appears that a "me" chooses to stay on the pavement because staying on the pavement is happening which reinforces the idea that there is a "me" doing this.

We can look into this via a little exercise if you like? It examines 'choice'.

If you think it will help - thank you.
With much appreciation for your support.
Hazel