feels like I'm close

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

- Thanks to this exercise I realized fear is indeed a really intelligent mechanism that protects me from very subtle perceived dangers. It's not something undesirable or bad, it's a caring friend. I am now able to relate to it with gratitude and understanding! It's not seen as an obstacle anymore. What a relief!

That's great news! So does this mean you are now able to go forward on your path without fear blocking your way?

I can't tell you for sure if it will not block my way, but it's definitely seen as much more benign than previously.

As you gently breathe in and out entertain this idea: all thought - the fears, beliefs, concepts, memories, expectations, emotions - whatever arises in your mind, is just like a cloud in the sky slowly going by. The next thought that appears imagine to be a cloud going by that you watch. It doesn't matter what the thought is about or how long it is. Just watch it come and watch it go. Notice if there is any time, short or long or even just an instant, where there is no thought. Continue "watching the clouds drift by" for 5 or 10 minutes. When you feel finished, slowly come back to life.

Were you able to see your thoughts come and go?

- yes, a few times

Did they seem to be arising from somewhere?

- no

Did you know what thought was coming next?

- no

Were there times with no thought at all?

- yes, a few times

I couldn't see pleasant thoughts as clouds though.

I will keep looking, as I always do throughout the day. Adios for now!

Best Wishes,
Petar

[Dennis90405]

Hello Peter,

That's great news! So does this mean you are now able to go forward on your path without fear blocking your way?

I can't tell you for sure if it will not block my way, but it's definitely seen as much more benign than previously.

...Continue "watching the clouds drift by" for 5 or 10 minutes. When you feel finished, slowly come back to life.
Were you able to see your thoughts come and go?

- yes, a few times

Did they seem to be arising from somewhere?

- no

Did you know what thought was coming next?

- no

Were there times with no thought at all?

- yes, a few times
I couldn't see pleasant thoughts as clouds though.

Wonderful Looking Peter! :) Great job with this exercise. Looking at your thoughts from a different perspective is a valuable skill for your inquiry.

To develop that skill, I'm having you continue this exercise for the next three days, twice a day, in the morning and evening, if possible. Do it in the same way, except for a longer time - 20 minutes. Keep a written journal of how it goes, and noting what comes up.

Remember - during the exercise the content of your thoughts is not important. Be very gentle with yourself. Don't be concerned if you find yourself "in" the thought instead of "noticing it like a cloud drifting by". Just return to "noticing" and go on. This should feel effortless.

Answer these questions from your written journal.

After three days:
Did it become easier each day to watch your thoughts drift by?
Where there fewer thoughts, or more thoughts, or the same each day?
Did you pay less attention to the content of the thoughts each day?
Each day were there more periods of time with no thoughts?

Report back in three days. If something comes up before that you want to share, feel free to post anytime.

Best,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

I've been doing the exercise with positive results. However, I think something more notable has started to take place - there has been noticing throughout the day (yesterday and today) that everything is happening by itself, and there is no I in control of anything. It leads to a feeling of peacefulness every time it is noticed. The illusion of a self seems to be slowly disappearing, although it is still there. Not sure how much more noticing needs to happen, but it's something new and definitely a good sign. Sometimes it is a bit confusing when doing the "clouds drifting by" exercise with this new shift in perspective emerging, but at times they kind of complement each other. Do you think I should continue doing the exercise? Thank you! :)

Love,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,

I've been doing the exercise with positive results. However, I think something more notable has started to take place - there has been noticing throughout the day (yesterday and today) that everything is happening by itself, and there is no I in control of anything. It leads to a feeling of peacefulness every time it is noticed. The illusion of a self seems to be slowly disappearing, although it is still there. Not sure how much more noticing needs to happen, but it's something new and definitely a good sign. Sometimes it is a bit confusing when doing the "clouds drifting by" exercise with this new shift in perspective emerging, but at times they kind of complement each other. Do you think I should continue doing the exercise? Thank you! :)

This is very good! :) Great work.

Yes, continue doing the exercise for 3 more days. As you practice it will get easier - more comfortable. Do the exercise twice a day if you can. Also, you can try it sitting upright if lying down causes you to fall asleep.

Lets talk about it after the next 3 days is over. Have fun!

Warm regards,
Dennis

[Dennis90405]

I haven't heard from you in a while.

How are you doing with your Looking exercise Peter?

Warm regards,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hey Dennis,

I didn't notice that three days had passed already, sorry. I was going to check how many days had passed since I started the exercise, then I saw your message. Time flies by :)

I did the exercise twice a day, but only had time to enter very short journal entries.

The exercise was useful, but what was more useful over the last several days was the frequent noticing that thoughts happen and there is no one in control of them. I mean, this is so crucial and fundamental - it should be the first thing to be noticed whenever a thought arises. Whenever there are some doubtful thoughts, they are noticed and there is the question - these thoughts are just arising out of nowhere, what is producing them and why? No answer can be found. Nobody and nothing can be found thinking them, so the focus shifts onto that.

Did it become easier each day to watch your thoughts drift by?

- I think it became a little easier.

Were there fewer thoughts, or more thoughts, or the same each day?

- about the same number of thoughts when I was feeling well, and more thoughts when I wasn't feeling well.

Did you pay less attention to the content of the thoughts each day?

- a little bit, yes

Each day were there more periods of time with no thoughts?

- about the same number of thoughts each time I was feeling well, and more thoughts when I wasn't feeling well.

In general, there weren't fewer thoughts or periods of no thought as I progressed (these depended on my emotional state during the exercise), but it became a bit easier to see thoughts as not so significant. So, when there were many thoughts, it was to some extent accepted that the weather was just cloudy that day and there was nothing that could be done about it - the clouds had to temporarily blur the sky, but they would eventually go away. They would not affect the sky anyway, so why resist them?

This has been my experience in the last few days, in a nutshell. Looking forward to your feedback. As always, thank you for your dedication to helping me, it means a lot!

Warm Regards,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hello Peter,

It's good to hear from you.

The exercise was useful, but what was more useful over the last several days was the frequent noticing that thoughts happen and there is no one in control of them. I mean, this is so crucial and fundamental - it should be the first thing to be noticed whenever a thought arises. Whenever there are some doubtful thoughts, they are noticed and there is the question - these thoughts are just arising out of nowhere, what is producing them and why? No answer can be found. Nobody and nothing can be found thinking them, so the focus shifts onto that.

No answer can be found? What if "nobody and nothing can be found thinking the thoughts" is the only answer?

In general, there weren't fewer thoughts or periods of no thought as I progressed (these depended on my emotional state during the exercise), but it became a bit easier to see thoughts as not so significant. So, when there were many thoughts, it was to some extent accepted that the weather was just cloudy that day and there was nothing that could be done about it - the clouds had to temporarily blur the sky, but they would eventually go away. They would not affect the sky anyway, so why resist them?

Beautifully stated Peter! :) It may be good for you to continue this exercise as a daily practice a while longer.


Peter, during this exercise, you've been been noticing your thoughts for a week now.
Who is doing the noticing of the thoughts as they arise and drift by?
Can you find anyone or anything noticing?
Can you find anyone or anything being aware?
(Answer the questions with no thought interpretation or conceptualizing after please.)


Love,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

Good to hear from you, too.

Whenever there are some doubtful thoughts, they are noticed and there is the question - these thoughts are just arising out of nowhere, what is producing them and why? No answer can be found. Nobody and nothing can be found thinking them, so the focus shifts onto that.

No answer can be found? What if "nobody and nothing can be found thinking the thoughts" is the only answer?

yes, that's the most accurate way to put it. "I" keep looking and looking and no source can be perceived which produces or notices thoughts. And no I can be found that is looking for the source or perceiver of thoughts, so it's all just happening.

It may be good for you to continue this exercise as a daily practice a while longer.

- yeah, it might be, I will do it whenever I can :)

Peter, during this exercise, you've been been noticing your thoughts for a week now.
Who is doing the noticing of the thoughts as they arise and drift by?

- nobody can be perceived doing that

Can you find anyone or anything noticing?

- no

Can you find anyone or anything being aware?

- no, I can't

I will keep trying to find anyone or anything noticing thoughts, just to see this as clearly as possible. Cheerio!

Love,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi there Peter,

Thank you for your quick reply. Momentum!

Peter, during this exercise, you've been been noticing your thoughts for a week now.
Who is doing the noticing of the thoughts as they arise and drift by?

- nobody can be perceived doing that

Can you find anyone or anything noticing?

- no

Can you find anyone or anything being aware?

- no, I can't

Your Looking skills have grown efficient, Peter!

Question: You can't find anyone or anything being aware. But yet there is awareness of the thoughts, just like there is awareness of body sensations happening.
Could it be that awareness is just happening, in much the same way that thoughts are just arising?

Direct Experience exercise.
Do the same exercise of noticing thoughts drift by:
Do you have control of the awareness?
Can you choose what thoughts to be aware of?
What sort of thoughts stay around longer -are "sticky" so to speak?


Best,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

I'm glad to hear your positive responses.

Question: You can't find anyone or anything being aware. But yet there is awareness of the thoughts, just like there is awareness of body sensations happening.
Could it be that awareness is just happening, in much the same way that thoughts are just arising?

- yes, it must be just happening, since no one and nothing can be found being aware.

Do the same exercise of noticing thoughts drift by:
Do you have control of the awareness?

- no, nobody does

Can you choose what thoughts to be aware of?

- no

What sort of thoughts stay around longer -are "sticky" so to speak?

- worrisome thoughts about Peter, but they are still not a big deal

Things couldn't get more impersonal than this :D

Best,
Petar

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,

You're moving along nicely.

Do you have control of the awareness?

- no, nobody does

Looks like you're on autopilot!

Can you choose what thoughts to be aware of?

- no

No "chooser". :)

What sort of thoughts stay around longer - are "sticky" so to speak?

- worrisome thoughts about Peter, but they are still not a big deal.
Things couldn't get more impersonal than this :D

Exactly. The "Peter-Self" tries to make everything personal, but you're on to him, it appears.

So let's look at control in a bigger sense than just noticing thoughts.

Your next Direct Experience exercise:
Do you have a bookshelf or at least some stacks of books? OK, you're going to choose a book. While looking over the books and making the choice, observe the Direct Experience involved in the choosing process. Did you choose one? OK.

Describe the book choosing process in detail.
Where was "Peter-Self" in this process?
Was there an "I" choosing?
Or did choosing just happen?
Was there conscious control?
Or was the choice made on pre-existing conditions like the book chosen was one that you had already started reading and wanted to finish, or a new book you're excited about reading?

Tell me all about it. :D

Cheers,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

Thank you for the quick response.

Looks like you're on autopilot!

- that would've been scary, but there is no "I" that's on autopilot, right?

The "Peter-Self" tries to make everything personal, but you're on to him, it appears.

- again, this is just a figure of speech, right? I mean, there is no one trying to make anything personal, and no one that's onto anyone, it's all happening as an impersonal process.

Do you have a bookshelf or at least some stacks of books? OK, you're going to choose a book. While looking over the books and making the choice, observe the Direct Experience involved in the choosing process. Did you choose one? OK.

Describe the book choosing process in detail.
Where was "Peter-Self" in this process?

- it was a thought that appeared a few times, so nowhere

Was there an "I" choosing?

- no

Or did choosing just happen?

- it happened, although that wasn't very clearly noticed

Was there conscious control?

- not sure what that means exactly, I noticed some actions of the body just happened seemingly by themselves

Or was the choice made on pre-existing conditions like the book chosen was one that you had already started reading and wanted to finish, or a new book you're excited about reading?

- it seems to have been based on pre-existing attitude towards the books

So are you suggesting that everything is pre-determined already? That kind of sucks, but if it's the truth I'm ready to accept it :D

Best Wishes,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,

You are rockin' it, as the young ones say around here! :)

Looks like you're on autopilot!

- that would've been scary, but there is no "I" that's on autopilot, right?

Well, what does your DE tell you?

The "Peter-Self" tries to make everything personal, but you're on to him, it appears.

- again, this is just a figure of speech, right? I mean, there is no one trying to make anything personal, and no one that's onto anyone, it's all happening as an impersonal process.

Wonderful insight!

Do you have a bookshelf or at least some stacks of books? OK, you're going to choose a book. While looking over the books and making the choice, observe the Direct Experience involved in the choosing process. Did you choose one? OK. Describe the book choosing process in detail.
Where was "Peter-Self" in this process?

- it was a thought that appeared a few times, so nowhere

Ok.

Was there an "I" choosing?

- no

Ok.

Or did choosing just happen?

- it happened, although that wasn't very clearly noticed

Ok, that's fine.

Was there conscious control?

- not sure what that means exactly, I noticed some actions of the body just happened seemingly by themselves

Skillful Looking.

Or was the choice made on pre-existing conditions like the book chosen was one that you had already started reading and wanted to finish, or a new book you're excited about reading?

- it seems to have been based on pre-existing attitude towards the books

Again, skillful Looking.

So are you suggesting that everything is pre-determined already? That kind of sucks, but if it's the truth I'm ready to accept it :D

I'm not suggesting anything. This about what you are finding by Direct Experience.
What if instead of "everything is pre-determined already", the reality is "life is mysteriously unfolding as it does"? How does that feel to you?

Peter, you've traveled along your path for a while. Let's see where you are now. Answer this question, in light of what your Direct Experience has shown you:
Was "Peter-Self" ever a living being that moves, speaks or thinks?

Love,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

Looks like you're on autopilot!

- that would've been scary, but there is no "I" that's on autopilot, right?

Well, what does your DE tell you?

- it demonstrates that there's no I that's on autopilot. It's only a thought.

So are you suggesting that everything is pre-determined already? That kind of sucks, but if it's the truth I'm ready to accept it :D

I'm not suggesting anything. This about what you are finding by Direct Experience.
What if instead of "everything is pre-determined already", the reality is "life is mysteriously unfolding as it does"? How does that feel to you?

- sounds quite true. Also, I think I have noticed that some thoughts that pop out are not related to the current stream of thought or to the current situation, so not everything must be determined by the past. This sounds better. I agree though, the only way to find out what is true is through DE.

Peter, you've traveled along your path for a while. Let's see where you are now. Answer this question, in light of what your Direct Experience has shown you:
Was "Peter-Self" ever a living being that moves, speaks or thinks?

- no, thoughts come out of no-where and the body follows. Meanwhile, there is awareness that can't be located or observed. "Peter-Self" is another thought that comes out of nowhere. I don't know why it is still believed - it's already been noticed that there is no real self in control. Today I had severe anxiety all day because of having to make work-related phone calls to ask for information. The self-thought keeps occurring and today it was stubbornly protected by a massive amount of fear of disapproval. I just don't know what still keeps this illusion intact even though it has been seen to be an illusion. I'm absolutely exhausted. Sorry if it sounds like whining.

Love,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter.

Your inquiry is deepening! Thank you for your honesty and hard work on this.

Looks like you're on autopilot!

- that would've been scary, but there is no "I" that's on autopilot, right?

Well, what does your DE tell you?

- it demonstrates that there's no I that's on autopilot. It's only a thought.

Sort of that yes, but the body and life function quite well without the "I" thought analyzing, directing, choosing. Life just seems to flow. The heart beats, food digests, work gets done, thoughts come and go.

So are you suggesting that everything is pre-determined already? That kind of sucks, but if it's the truth I'm ready to accept it :D

I'm not suggesting anything. This about what you are finding by Direct Experience.
What if instead of "everything is pre-determined already", the reality is "life is mysteriously unfolding as it does"? How does that feel to you?

- sounds quite true. Also, I think I have noticed that some thoughts that pop out are not related to the current stream of thought or to the current situation, so not everything must be determined by the past. This sounds better. I agree though, the only way to find out what is true is through DE.

Yes, exactly so. Through sensations.

Peter, you've traveled along your path for a while. Let's see where you are now. Answer this question, in light of what your Direct Experience has shown you:
Was "Peter-Self" ever a living being that moves, speaks or thinks?

- no, thoughts come out of no-where and the body follows. Meanwhile, there is awareness that can't be located or observed. "Peter-Self" is another thought that comes out of nowhere. I don't know why it is still believed - it's already been noticed that there is no real self in control. Today I had severe anxiety all day because of having to make work-related phone calls to ask for information. The self-thought keeps occurring and today it was stubbornly protected by a massive amount of fear of disapproval. I just don't know what still keeps this illusion intact even though it has been seen to be an illusion. I'm absolutely exhausted. Sorry if it sounds like whining.

I'm sorry about your anxiety. No, you aren't whining.

In light of what you said:
"I don't know why it ("Peter-Self") is still believed - it's already been noticed that there is no real self in control. Today I had severe anxiety all day".
Let's look at your expectations of what will happen when you drop your belief in the illusion of a separate "Peter-Self". What exactly do you believe will change in your life? Do you expect you will be immune from uncomfortable thoughts, emotions or life situations?

Take the time to review some expectations that many people bring to their inquiry at Liberation Unleashed.
Below is a list explaining what the LU process is not:
This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.

Your exercise is to ferret out your expectations for this inquiry - all of them. Contemplate on it for a while then come back and tell me what you've found. (Such fun homework eh?) :)

One more thing - when you're feeling anxiety, close your eyes, take a breath, and notice your thoughts for a few minutes, just like you do for the thought-noticing exercise I gave you before. Let me know how it goes.

Warm regards,
Dennis