Looking for a long time and quite confused.

[SomeOne]

Hey John,

What is 'Felix'?

What we're looking at here is that 'Felix' is the umbrella term for a familiar set of feelings, thoughts and actions. 'Felix' is the name we call 'our self'. 'Our self' is this social identity that apparently thinks.
And yet, 'our self' is nowhere to be seen when lifting a hand.

Is there anywhere in which the assumption of 'Felix' as 'your self' inside running the show, can stand?

No. It somehow still seems quite intuitive, that familiar feelings, thoughts and actions are not a "doer", and can't do things. For example right now when I'm sitting here, there are familiar feelings that are like a sense of 'Felix', but they are just feelings, and things happen without them. I mean, how would feelings move a hand, or type something?

This just had me thinking/deliberating for the past 30-60 minutes. I pondered the consequences of what I had just written/understood, and it was really insightful. Just now I was going to write "I'll try my best to write down what went on", but realized that I can't do that, and things are just going to happen the way they do (no I - no choice - no doer). I think situations like these have been there before - a lot of clarity. But something still feels off; basically the questions "So how does this help me?"/"How does this help me decide what to do/what I should do?" come up.

It is very understandable, that when a long-standing illusion, especially one like 'my self' is seen to be made up, that there feels like a vacuum in the house. :) We tend to still think AS IF there should be a 'Felix'-like replacement to do stuff, but maybe a cooler one, that has things sussed. This would be another made-up proxy self.

So we reach for dogma to fill the gap: (no I - no choice - no doer). And should you believe this nonsense, you'll have no end of friends on Facebook to welcome you in. :)

Okay, I'm listening to you here, but I'm not 100% clear on this: At the same time the hand-lifting exercise just happened, without anyone deciding when to lift the hand, but you also say the "no choice, no doer" is just a dogma.

You noticed that the hand raised, but there was nothing observable that raised it.
As you go about the day, you will notice that decisions are made, but there was nothing observable that made it.
You'll notice words are spoken, but there was nothing observable speaking.
You'll notice walking, but there was nothing observable walking.
You'll notice thinking, but there was nothing observable thinking.

Do this activity - hold off the analysis, relax, settle into it, and share what you discovered.

It's only been an evening so far, but here goes: It feels like I had multiple moments where I got a good grip on this, like with the hand lifting exercise, but it seems to take conscious effort, and isn't something "natural" or something I 100% know. Those moments were mostly when things happened, like when I moved, or now when I'm typing. I would "suddenly" find myself standing, and after investigating whether there was something that made me stand up or walk around, I wouldn't find anything. Another thing I found was that when I thought I wanted to try "harder" I would somehow notice that that wasn't possible, because there wasn't anyone choosing when to pay attention/when to focus, etc. It felt like "I" couldn't really do anything. Is this again too dogma-ish?

It also changed from a feeling of paying attention from time to time and noticing that things just happened in that moment, to a feeling/realization of that's just what's happening all the time, and the noticing/looking is just part of it.

It seemed to be the same with deciding when to reply here - it felt like I couldn't really decide that, because there isn't anything that can do the deciding. Not sure whether I'm deluding myself here with too much dogma-ish stuff, and I should be more focused on the 'Felix' aspect. But 'Felix' also wasn't there to decide stuff.

Also, at some point I was reminded of something I had read here before, which I suddenly felt like I recognized: The "I" in thoughts is just an afterthought put there by the brain/nobody, and not really there when things happen.

That's it so far.

Many Thanks,
Felix

[s-p-a-c-e]

No. It somehow still seems quite intuitive, that familiar feelings, thoughts and actions are not a "doer", and can't do things. For example right now when I'm sitting here, there are familiar feelings that are like a sense of 'Felix', but they are just feelings, and things happen without them. I mean, how would feelings move a hand, or type something?

Quite! Shocking.

Okay, I'm listening to you here, but I'm not 100% clear on this: At the same time the hand-lifting exercise just happened, without anyone deciding when to lift the hand, but you also say the "no choice, no doer" is just a dogma.

You can belief there is no doer. See how far that gets you. :)

Or see what can be observed and what can't, and compare that with your belief.

It's only been an evening so far, but here goes: It feels like I had multiple moments where I got a good grip on this, like with the hand lifting exercise, but it seems to take conscious effort, and isn't something "natural" or something I 100% know. Those moments were mostly when things happened, like when I moved, or now when I'm typing. I would "suddenly" find myself standing, and after investigating whether there was something that made me stand up or walk around, I wouldn't find anything. Another thing I found was that when I thought I wanted to try "harder" I would somehow notice that that wasn't possible, because there wasn't anyone choosing when to pay attention/when to focus, etc. It felt like "I" couldn't really do anything. Is this again too dogma-ish?

Yes, you find yourself standing, or typing, or listening, or speaking.

Dogma is just belief. We're moving away from belief to look at what is/isn't observable.
Unless you like cults. :D I'm sure I can come up with something. lol

It also changed from a feeling of paying attention from time to time and noticing that things just happened in that moment, to a feeling/realization of that's just what's happening all the time, and the noticing/looking is just part of it.

It seemed to be the same with deciding when to reply here - it felt like I couldn't really decide that, because there isn't anything that can do the deciding. Not sure whether I'm deluding myself here with too much dogma-ish stuff, and I should be more focused on the 'Felix' aspect. But 'Felix' also wasn't there to decide stuff.

Also, at some point I was reminded of something I had read here before, which I suddenly felt like I recognized: The "I" in thoughts is just an afterthought put there by the brain/nobody, and not really there when things happen.

Your job is to reflexively observe the mover, the speaker, the thinker, to walker.
All you have is observation.
You have grown up with a belief in 'Felix', as I did in 'John'.
We are testing this belief, to see if it stands up to close observation.

For example: it might feel right now like Felix. Familiar feelings and posture and breathing, all add up to Felix.
And with that background of feelings like Felix, this sentence is read, and it seems like Felix is reading it, who else ffs. It seems clear that Felix is somehow looking out from behind the eyes, reading these words. And so I loop back to the place where it seems Felix is, reading this - behind the eyes, and I observe and sense that space behind the eyes, and test the existence of Felix. How can he seem to be there, and not be there?

/john

[SomeOne]

Hey,

For example: it might feel right now like Felix. Familiar feelings and posture and breathing, all add up to Felix.
And with that background of feelings like Felix, this sentence is read, and it seems like Felix is reading it, who else ffs. It seems clear that Felix is somehow looking out from behind the eyes, reading these words. And so I loop back to the place where it seems Felix is, reading this - behind the eyes, and I observe and sense that space behind the eyes, and test the existence of Felix. How can he seem to be there, and not be there?

Somehow all of this doesn't feel clear to me right now at all. I'm also really confused about 'Felix' vs. 'I'. It feels like they should be the same, but from what you wrote it sounds like they are different things. Like 'I' am looking for something else that is 'Felix' somewhere in my head. It feels like this isn't really working, like the reflexive observation has somehow become useless, and like I don't notice anything when I look for a doer/decider/whatever, and there is no 'moment of recognition' of anything or of the absence of anything when I try. I dunno what's up, somehow I'm feeling really emotional/hopeless/desperate right now, and can't focus on the 'exercise' at all. Many thanks for listening though, I really appreciate it a lot.

Much thanks,
Felix

[s-p-a-c-e]

Somehow all of this doesn't feel clear to me right now at all. I'm also really confused about 'Felix' vs. 'I'. It feels like they should be the same, but from what you wrote it sounds like they are different things. Like 'I' am looking for something else that is 'Felix' somewhere in my head. It feels like this isn't really working, like the reflexive observation has somehow become useless, and like I don't notice anything when I look for a doer/decider/whatever, and there is no 'moment of recognition' of anything or of the absence of anything when I try. I dunno what's up, somehow I'm feeling really emotional/hopeless/desperate right now, and can't focus on the 'exercise' at all. Many thanks for listening though, I really appreciate it a lot.

Hey Felix,

It's all good. This is a one step forward two steps back kinda process. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Forget 'I' for now, and we'll focus on 'Felix', because this is the thing, and we got some work to do so you can get a sense of this.

Here's the deal. You grew up being Felix, I grew up being John.
The name is stamped on us.
But a name is just a sound, and a shape (of the word).
The name points to something.

Don't think about it...
Share with me, straight off, what does the name Felix point to?

Many thanks!
John

[SomeOne]

Here's the deal. You grew up being Felix, I grew up being John.
The name is stamped on us.
But a name is just a sound, and a shape (of the word).
The name points to something.

Don't think about it...
Share with me, straight off, what does the name Felix point to?

Hey John,

The name Felix points to 'me'. A person with a history, hopes, dreams, wishes, family, a life, a person that is standing, sitting, walking around, contemplating/thinking, it points to memories, feelings that I currently have.

Full disclosure: I actually read your post in the morning, and only reply now (early evening), but I didn't really spend time thinking about the question during the day.

Many thanks,
Felix

[s-p-a-c-e]

The name Felix points to 'me'. A person with a history, hopes, dreams, wishes, family, a life, a person that is standing, sitting, walking around, contemplating/thinking, it points to memories, feelings that I currently have.

Ok, good. And in the next 30 secs, what does the name Felix point to operationally - that is, what is going on here and now that is pointed to by the name Felix?

Maybe a gesture. A breath. A movement. A thought. A feeling. A bodily sensation.

Observe closely holding the name Felix in attention, and ask: "Ok, what in my experience is pointed out by the name Felix?"

Full disclosure: I actually read your post in the morning, and only reply now (early evening), but I didn't really spend time thinking about the question during the day.

That very kind Felix, I'll leave how you go about this to you.

With best wishes,
John

[SomeOne]

The name Felix points to 'me'. A person with a history, hopes, dreams, wishes, family, a life, a person that is standing, sitting, walking around, contemplating/thinking, it points to memories, feelings that I currently have.

Ok, good. And in the next 30 secs, what does the name Felix point to operationally - that is, what is going on here and now that is pointed to by the name Felix?

Maybe a gesture. A breath. A movement. A thought. A feeling. A bodily sensation.

Observe closely holding the name Felix in attention, and ask: "Ok, what in my experience is pointed out by the name Felix?"

Speech/my voice, definitely a bodily sensation/feeling in the body, how I hold my hands/arms, my head, certain movements. Stuff that is lying around that I still wanted to clean up. When I look at things in my room it points to associated moments (from the past). Thoughts that I am having. Sensations/familiar feelings in the body. A personality (somehow corresponds familiar feelings in my body).

Many Thanks,
Felix

[s-p-a-c-e]

Speech/my voice, definitely a bodily sensation/feeling in the body, how I hold my hands/arms, my head, certain movements. Stuff that is lying around that I still wanted to clean up. When I look at things in my room it points to associated moments (from the past). Thoughts that I am having. Sensations/familiar feelings in the body. A personality (somehow corresponds familiar feelings in my body).

Good stuff.

Now,
If you hold your arms differently - are you still Felix?
If you voice is silent - are you still Felix?
If your room is super tidy - are you still Felix?
If there is a pause in thoughts - are you still Felix?

Many thanks!
John

[SomeOne]

Now,
If you hold your arms differently - are you still Felix?
If you voice is silent - are you still Felix?
If your room is super tidy - are you still Felix?
If there is a pause in thoughts - are you still Felix?

Many thanks!
John

I'm somewhat confused and can't decide. It feels like, yes, of course _I_ am still _Felix_, no matter what happens, however I hold my arms, whether I am speaking or not, whether my room is tidy or not, whether I am thinking or not. On the other hand it seems like no, when the things that make up 'Felix' are not there, there is not much 'Felix' left.

Felix

[s-p-a-c-e]

I'm somewhat confused and can't decide. It feels like, yes, of course _I_ am still _Felix_, no matter what happens, however I hold my arms, whether I am speaking or not, whether my room is tidy or not, whether I am thinking or not. On the other hand it seems like no, when the things that make up 'Felix' are not there, there is not much 'Felix' left.

Not confusing at all, makes sense. Of course you still feel to be Felix. Just as anyone would feel themselves to be their conventional identity, no matter the gestures, thoughts etc.

So, the question is: what is the nature of this Felix that you seem to be. In what does it reside?

If a particular thought is absent, is Felix absent?
If a particular feeling is absent, is Felix absent?
If a particular movement is absent, is Felix absent?

What's your immediate impression?

Thanks,
John

[SomeOne]

Not confusing at all, makes sense. Of course you still feel to be Felix. Just as anyone would feel themselves to be their conventional identity, no matter the gestures, thoughts etc.

So, the question is: what is the nature of this Felix that you seem to be. In what does it reside?

If a particular thought is absent, is Felix absent?
If a particular feeling is absent, is Felix absent?
If a particular movement is absent, is Felix absent?

What's your immediate impression?

Thanks,
John

Yes, somehow yes. But it feels like there is always something else to take the place of the absent thought/feeling/movement, be it Felix or something else.

Thanks,
Felix

[s-p-a-c-e]

Yes, somehow yes. But it feels like there is always something else to take the place of the absent thought/feeling/movement, be it Felix or something else.

Just to add some clarity, what we're looking into is the idea that within you is an independent being.
The fact we refer to this being as Felix is neither here nor there.
The simple fact is that we think/believe/accept that this independent being has agency, can do things, can lift a hand, speak and so on.
With me so far?

We equate this independent being with the personality we have grown into/up with.
They are deemed one and the same.

Yes?

Thanks,
John

[SomeOne]

Hey John,

Just to add some clarity, what we're looking into is the idea that within you is an independent being.
The fact we refer to this being as Felix is neither here nor there.
The simple fact is that we think/believe/accept that this independent being has agency, can do things, can lift a hand, speak and so on.
With me so far?

Yes. But it seems like there is nobody making decisions. For example, when to type or what to think isn't "chosen". A thought just pops up, maybe followed by another thought, and then maybe something happens (like typing). But we believe in a thinker/typer/whatever for some reason, and a story is developed around that.

We equate this independent being with the personality we have grown into/up with.
They are deemed one and the same.

Yes?

Yes. Could a personality actually exist without anyone acting it out? That somehow seems to be the case. And the personality isn't acting anything out either, because it's only a description of what's already happening/happened.

It still feels like I haven't "gotten" this, like there is more to "get" here, even though on a conceptual level/from what I wrote above, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Many thanks,
Felix

[s-p-a-c-e]

Yes. Could a personality actually exist without anyone acting it out? That somehow seems to be the case. And the personality isn't acting anything out either, because it's only a description of what's already happening/happened.

Sure. A personality is a product of upbringing and whatever else.

Would you say there is a you?

If so, with reference to here and now, describe you as best you can.

Ta!
John

[SomeOne]

Sure. A personality is a product of upbringing and whatever else.

Would you say there is a you?

If so, with reference to here and now, describe you as best you can.

Ta!
John

It's somehow really hard. Wherever I look, 'I' am not there. I tried to check whether I am my body, but my body is just a body. Not something with hopes/dreams/whatever. There are feelings inside it, but the body doesn't really care, it's more like a rock in that regard. I wondered who I was without my name, 'Felix'. I mean, I have already been me since before I got my name, and thus _can't be_ my name. The name must refer to something, if at all. Is there something? I tried to check whether I was my personality. But it seems like my personality could exist just as well without me, and it wouldn't make a difference at all. I tried to check in the past. But all that comes up are the 'familiar feelings' from past moments, and they are, alas, just feelings.

That's a bit wrong. I am somehow still 'me'. Thought patterns, a familiar 'sound' of thoughts, a familiar 'voice' in my head so to speak. The voice that is trying to reason about all of this. At the same time the 'familiar feelings'/personality in my body also still make up me, even though they would work just as well without 'me'.

Many Thanks,
Felix