No-self

[tcrowell]

take a look for a boundary or edge between 'you' and 'everything else'. Is it possible to find such a line, where you end and everything else begins?

Some resistance is felt with this one. Though I know conceptually there is no line, it feels like there is one. I cannot tell where that line is. When I go back there is no line. But yet a moment there feels like there is. I will work more on this. I do not want to lie and just say, Oh, yeah, I am one with no separation.

[JonathanR]

Some resistance is felt with this one. Though I know conceptually there is no line, it feels like there is one. I cannot tell where that line is. When I go back there is no line. But yet a moment there feels like there is. I will work more on this. I do not want to lie and just say, Oh, yeah, I am one with no separation.

Good for you! Quite right. It is interesting that when you look again there is no line. Perhaps it will take a few looks? No worry. It's good that you are prepared to look.

Jon

[tcrowell]

Did some more brief(3 seconds to 5 minutes) looks. Moments of no boundary and the same feeling as when "I disappeared." And moments of discomfort while "I searched" and the boundary "seemed" to be there. I realize there is nothing wrong with the discomfort. What is noticing the discomfort? It will take time. After I'm mildly disappointed. I'm expecting or wanting the big bang awakening but its not happening. And that's just what it is. Its not happening. So what? What wants it to happen? Again all rhetoric and words. Not a big Dark Night of the Soul of teeth gnashing. I go about my day lightly as before. Just have to use words and words don't quite get it. Will continue to look for the boundary when the "mood" strikes. Thanks for the pointer, Jon.

[JonathanR]

Did some more brief(3 seconds to 5 minutes) looks. Moments of no boundary and the same feeling as when "I disappeared." And moments of discomfort while "I searched" and the boundary "seemed" to be there. I realize there is nothing wrong with the discomfort. What is noticing the discomfort? It will take time.

That's good. Well done. And it may take time.

[/quote]After I'm mildly disappointed. I'm expecting or wanting the big bang awakening but its not happening. And that's just what it is. Its not happening. So what? What wants it to happen? Again all rhetoric and words. Not a big Dark Night of the Soul of teeth gnashing.[/quote]

It's almost ironic but we set out to look, and conventionally in life if we search for something it is often an expectation that something must be found? It can seem that there must be some kind of experience that can be found, like a big bang awakening? In this inquiry it is all about looking and not finding. Do you see?

I go about my day lightly as before. Just have to use words and words don't quite get it. Will continue to look for the boundary when the "mood" strikes. Thanks for the pointer, Jon.

Good. Yes, every so often and not too intensively. Keep up the excellent inquiry. Mainly this bit is about not finding a line or edge. But there are other little exercises we can try that will reveal the same thing.

Thanks,

Jon

[tcrowell]

Mainly this bit is about not finding a line or edge. But there are other little exercises we can try that will reveal the same thing.

I'm not finding a line or edge. I feel like I want to find something. Finding no form is uncomfortable. But there isn't anything to find. I sit with the uncomfortable.

[tcrowell]

Mainly this bit is about not finding a line or edge. But there are other little exercises we can try that will reveal the same thing.

I'm not finding a line or edge. I feel like I want to find something. Finding no form is uncomfortable. But there isn't anything to find. I sit with the uncomfortable.

[JonathanR]

Hi,

Mainly this bit is about not finding a line or edge. But there are other little exercises we can try that will reveal the same thing.

I'm not finding a line or edge. I feel like I want to find something. Finding no form is uncomfortable. But there isn't anything to find. I sit with the uncomfortable.

Thanks for trying out the 'quote function, by the way.

Good. Very well done, in spite of the discomfort. In finding no line or edge and the discomfort of wanting there to be something it may be worth trying to take a look behind that feeling.

Would you say that there is a kind of anxiety or fear? If so this is very common and it often precedes a realization or breakthrough. It may help to regard the discomfort as a kind of protective impulse. I reality nobody is threatened or could get hurt. There has never been a self to have to protect. However, somehow, that may not be the feeling?

If there is a feeling of resistance then something tires to protect that which is felt to be threatened. This protective impule is loyal and probably has helped the body to get through life without taking too much damage? The first thing to do is to thank this loyal impulse very sincerely and as deeply as possible for its protection and suggets to it that it can now relax, becasue nobody is threatened. (I know it sounds perhaps a little strange to be talking like this but just look into your experience to see if there is this sort of anxiety. If there is this little expecise may help. Let me know how you get on?)

Warm regards,

Jon

[tcrowell]

Would you say that there is a kind of anxiety or fear?

Anxiety

The first thing to do is to thank this loyal impulse very sincerely and as deeply as possible for its protection and suggets to it that it can now relax, becasue nobody is threatened.

Thank you for the pointer. Pema Chodron and Thich Nhat Hanh talk alot about making friends and smiling to the anxiety or fear. I know the anxiety is nothing to be upset about. I try to instead be interested in the anxiety. "Interesting. There it is again."

[JonathanR]

Hi,

The first thing to do is to thank this loyal impulse very sincerely and as deeply as possible for its protection and suggets to it that it can now relax, becasue nobody is threatened.


Thank you for the pointer. Pema Chodron and Thich Nhat Hanh talk alot about making friends and smiling to the anxiety or fear. I know the anxiety is nothing to be upset about. I try to instead be interested in the anxiety. "Interesting. There it is again."

Ah. Right. Well they are on the right track :-)

Sometimes it is enough to befriend or talk to anxiety and to thank it for it's loyal, loving attempt to protect. Sometimes the anxiety gently relaxes as it is understood that there has never been someone that could get harmed. Sometimes it can need a little time and sometimes trying one or two other approaches. But let's see if it is possible to really relax and stop feeling worried?

Let me know how it goes?

All the best,

Jon

[tcrowell]

Wanting to blow off about how much pointless spirituality I know(a huge tendency of mine), I missed this part of your message:

suggets to it that it can now relax, becasue nobody is threatened.

That's good. "Its going to be Ok. You can relax. We got this."

[JonathanR]

Good :-)

Do you find that the uncomfortable feeling when not finding a line or boundary is lessened at all? Actually, it is enough that you could not find a line, uncomfortable or not. Is it clear that no such line where 'you' end and 'everything else' begins really exists, except as an idea?

Thanks,

Jon

[tcrowell]

Do you find that the uncomfortable feeling when not finding a line or boundary is lessened at all?

Yes. I am able to relax into the feeling. No line. No problem.

Is it clear that no such line where 'you' end and 'everything else' begins really exists, except as an idea?

Yes.

[JonathanR]

Hi,

Do you find that the uncomfortable feeling when not finding a line or boundary is lessened at all?
Yes. I am able to relax into the feeling. No line. No problem.
Is it clear that no such line where 'you' end and 'everything else' begins really exists, except as an idea?
Yes.

Thank you. Sounds good.

Well, it has been a few days since we last exchanged posts and I'm wondering how all this sits with you?

Is there a difference in the way that you think or see things now since we started our conversation?

Can you say, with a big 'yes' that there is no self? No separate and unchanging entity? Is this seen without a doubt?

Jon

[tcrowell]

Can you say, with a big 'yes' that there is no self? No separate and unchanging entity? Is this seen without a doubt?

Yes. Or rather than resounding more matter of fact like answering "Do you see that you breathe in oxygen through your nose and mouth.

A by product of this seeing (not sure how it is related to the no self) is that there is no time. I used to spend a lot of thoughts on future. In the morning, instead of thinking about what I'm doing, I'm thinking about lunch. During lunch, instead of eating, I'm thinking about what I'm going to do in an hour. Its true that planning is important but I'm doing more than planning. I'm thinking about things that may not happen. Now I'm able to catch myself and see the future thought and go back to what I'm doing. There is just one time. Not a series of moments.

[JonathanR]

Can you say, with a big 'yes' that there is no self? No separate and unchanging entity? Is this seen without a doubt?
Yes. Or rather than resounding more matter of fact like answering "Do you see that you breathe in oxygen through your nose and mouth.

OK. Thank you. That's good.

A by product of this seeing (not sure how it is related to the no self) is that there is no time. I used to spend a lot of thoughts on future. In the morning, instead of thinking about what I'm doing, I'm thinking about lunch. During lunch, instead of eating, I'm thinking about what I'm going to do in an hour. Its true that planning is important but I'm doing more than planning. I'm thinking about things that may not happen. Now I'm able to catch myself and see the future thought and go back to what I'm doing. There is just one time. Not a series of moments.

Very good. I'm so pleased.

Round about this stage we tend to ask six questions. These six can throw up more to investigate and at some stage, I'd like to ask the other guides to take a look at our conversation too, in case they may have some questions.

Do you feel ready for the questions? If you have anything you'd still like to investigate or any doubts at all, now would be a good time to mention them.

Al the best

Jon