I want to understand.

[Gardenia]

Hi Mark
I am struggling with "am I a person in a body?", even though I can see that awareness does not have any characteristics of a person!

Age, job, opinion, likes and dislikes and gender are all thoughts from the point of view of awareness.

I cannot find a thing or person that is being aware.

Is awareness a quality that the "I" possesses?

I find this difficult. A body-mind is aware, so in a sense possesses awareness. But nothing can own awareness because it is infinite and I seem to be just awareness. I can't believe I've just written that! But if I look down at my body it's not just awareness. It has some limited reality I feel really unclear, blocked and confused.

I had the same problem with your earlier questions when you used the word "someone".

regards
Gardenia

[Jack'n'theBox]

Hello Gardenia,

I am struggling with "am I a person in a body?", even though I can see that awareness does not have any characteristics of a person!

Right. That's not unusual. Remember we can't resolve this conceptually -- it has to be resolved in actual experience.

Others I've worked with have found the guided meditation below very helpful to see what's being pointed to here. Rupert is coming from another tradition so don't be put off by his language -- it's the experience he is pointing to we are trying to recognise:

http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/list ... f-the-body

Let me know if this shifts things for you.

In addition -- if I could leave you with these questions:

Does awareness appear as an attribute of the "body/mind"? OR

Does what you are calling the "body/mind" itself appear in awareness?

If the latter, can this "body/mind" be aware?

[Gardenia]

Hi Mark
I have listened to the talk twice. I really like Rupert Spira's stuff.
After the first time I felt opened up even more and a bit uplifted with a little surge of happiness. (My 'drawing' was more squiggles than dots!) I didn't get the uplift on the second time.

But I feel certain that I am just awareness, nothing else.

Awareness is not an attribute of the body but is the body. Rupert seems to separate out the mind from the body and just talk about the body, I suppose to highlight thoughts.
I liked that I am just a surge of energy I think he said.

So if I am made of awareness the body-mind must itself appear in awareness. That sounds suspiciously like an inference.

Not sure about the last question. I don't think it can be aware if it already is awareness. I think I'm getting confused and conceptual again! Sorry.


I was intrigued with what he said at the end about when opening my eyes the world goes out and the 'I' contracts. Not sure I understand that.

regards Gardenia x

[Jack'n'theBox]

Hello Gardenia

After the first time I felt opened up even more and a bit uplifted with a little surge of happiness. (My 'drawing' was more squiggles than dots!) I didn't get the uplift on the second time.

OK great. A sense of opening is always a good sign -- but please check that you are not looking for a new "state" or "experience."

But I feel certain that I am just awareness, nothing else.

Right. But we noticed previously that "awareness" has no qualities of the self -- it has no name, gender, job, preferences. So what is this "I" that has identified itself as awareness? Have a look.

So if I am made of awareness the body-mind must itself appear in awareness. That sounds suspiciously like an inference. . . I think I'm getting confused and conceptual again! Sorry.

Right. But what is this "I" that is "made of awareness"? Look at it this way -- we saw earlier that all that can be found are thoughts, feelings and sensations -- where among these appearances is this "I"?

I was intrigued with what he said at the end about when opening my eyes the world goes out and the 'I' contracts. Not sure I understand that.

With eyes shut sensation comes to the fore -- can you find any edge or limit to these sensations?

With eyes open you may find that the sense of an inside/outside world is strengthened -- the visual sense suggests the body is a "container".

You could try experimenting with the sense of contraction -- eyes closed sensation expands -- eyes open sensation contracts -- what is that about? Have an explore.

[Gardenia]

Hi Mark
There is just awareness! There is nothing to call an 'I' that can be found.

BUT I don't feel transformed by this seeing. (You used that word earlier as I have just reread some earlier posts).
I don't think I am looking for a particular state but I am looking for an experience of a realisation hitting me in the depths.

No there is no edge or boundary to the sensations in experience when the eyes are closed. I think I said that before.

Yes the visual sense definitely suggests the body is a container! With the eyes open there is a separation between the body and the rest of the world. The mind imputes self and other onto to this.

I haven't spent as long on this today as usual for various reasons.
Regards
Gardenia

[Jack'n'theBox]

Hi Gardenia,

You are clearly working hard at this -- maybe too hard. Just let go of the "seeking" and notice that whatever it is that shows up is empty of self -- this includes feelings that "I haven't got it". WHAT hasn't got it? WHAT is it that wants to know? You say you aren't looking for a "state" but please check and see whether there is some grasping going on here -- you WANT something that isn't. WHAT is it that wants that!?

BUT I don't feel transformed by this seeing. (You used that word earlier as I have just reread some earlier posts).
I don't think I am looking for a particular state but I am looking for an experience of a realisation hitting me in the depths.

Right. But WHAT is there to be transformed?

WHAT is it that expects to be "hit in the depths"?

Indeed WHAT is there in the here and now that has "depths"?

[Gardenia]

Hi Mark
I'm obviously frustrating you, sorry about that. I'm frustrating myself too!
I did feel a bit told off from your post. But I know, having read 'Gateless Gatecrashers' years ago, that guides can be quite confrontational. That's part of the intensity to get you to see clearly.

I haven't had much time today to look at your questions properly, and actually I haven't wanted to, so I'll write more tomorrow hopefully. I'm going to veg out in front of the TV now!
regards Gardenia x

[Jack'n'theBox]

Hello Gardenia, please don't worry about me. I'm not frustrated. Just waving a bit of a Zen stick at your thinking mind.

You could look at this sense of "frustration" -- break it down into its parts (thoughts, feelings, sensations) -- on whose behalf is it arising?

xx

[Gardenia]

Hi Mark
Just back from a classical concert so feeling calm and chilled!

I had intended to meditate for a second time today but ran out of time, even though it doesn't exist!

I'll try and let go of the seeking. All those WANTS you mentioned are just 'me' craving something. There's also some worry there that you will say 'Well that's it, the process is finished' and yet I still have self-view spectacles on as you put it. Well I don't think I've taken them off completely yet. There has to be some way of knowing that has taken place I imagine. That's what I am referring to when I talk about seeing or knowing. Insight has to register in some way surely? I remember you liked it when I said I was stunned at seeing something, and also when I had a sense of opening in that video of Rupert Spiro's. something other than thought is needed!

The sense of frustration is an impatient thought, with worry as mentioned, and feelings of self criticism for not 'getting it' plus bodily sensation of clenching and it definitely feels like an 'I', but I suppose that is just my ego. Not sure what that is exactly.

I'm not sure what else to say but thought I'd better write now as I shall be tired after my chapter tonight.
Regards Gardenia

[Jack'n'theBox]

Hi Gardenia,

All those WANTS you mentioned are just 'me' craving something.

OK good to notice this. Just because what we want might be "spiritual" (higher mental states, more compassion, "insight" into no self) doesn't mean it's not still craving. No need to "do" anything about this craving, just notice when it appears.

The sense of frustration is an impatient thought, with worry as mentioned, and feelings of self criticism for not 'getting it' plus bodily sensation of clenching and it definitely feels like an 'I', but I suppose that is just my ego. Not sure what that is exactly.

OK, "sensation of clenching" sounds like an energetic reaction. Maybe think of your feeling responses like this -- feelings are either expansive or contracted -- notice that feelings associated with "self" (selfishness would be the best example here! but also anger or craving) feel contracted whereas feelings associated with others (love, helpfulness, compassion, generosity) feel expanded. Notice how on a daily, hourly or even momentary basis there is this constant expansion and contraction of energy taking place.

You say that the clenching feels like an "I" -- but maybe that is just a contraction of energy in response to conditions -- there is no actual "I" (or as you say ego) doing this -- it is just an energetic movement -- like clouds in the sky. What is it that says this particular feeling is "me"?

I'll try and let go of the seeking.

Right. But what is the "I" that gets to choose whether to seek or not to seek? Is there some "executive agent" behind the many actions and decisions that take place each day that can decide to do one thing or not another? This can seem a bit of an abstract question -- so try the exercise below and let me know what comes up:

Take a black pen and a blue pen and a piece of paper. Now in the next five minutes you are going to take either the black pen or the blue pen and write your name. Observe closely -- what is it that determines which pen is chosen? What is it that determines precisely WHEN the pen is chosen. Focus not on thougths but on energy behind the movement. Is it thought that is controlling this energy? Is anything in control of the energy?

[Gardenia]

Hi Mark
What you said about energetic reactions and contracted or expansive feelings set off an intuition that this was all the self was. I felt a calming, an opening, a relaxing, a knowing and a 'yes' sensation which wasn't exactly a thought, and I had that same burst of happiness that I had had when I felt that opening when listening to Rupert Spira's guided meditation. I am not usually very aware of the felt body sense ( feeling emotions in the body), perhaps my feelings are mainly neutral. But as that sense of frustration was so strong I had been able to really feel that clenching. I remember seeing that craving and aversion were just energy moving towards something or pushing it away when I did the process before and I remember feeling a knot of energy and called it the ego. I was never quite clear whether the ego was the same as the self or if it was just the 'sense of self'. So it didn't sink in enough. This had a familiar feel to it, that I knew this. Why would I forget that or lose touch with it I wonder?

I was not particularly aware of any contraction or expansion of energy throughout the day. I was walking in the morning and checking emails, and playing cards in the afternoon. It was all quite pleasant and didn't alter much, or if it did I didn't notice. Actually thinking back some emails did set off some emotional changes as the Triratna Order is going through a difficult time. So there must have been energetic changes but they didn't register enough for me to remember them.

In the exercise it took ages. It was as if 'I' was preventing the thoughts from taking over. But eventually there was an unbidden impulse to pick a pen up. There wasn't any agent in control or directing it, it just happened.

If you are going to ask me how 'I' prevented the thoughts from taking over I can only say that it was like the energy was poised for ages before going in one direction, unbidden as I say.

I feel very relieved and happy that I have 'seen' this and grateful to you.
many thanks
Gardenia xx

[Jack'n'theBox]

Hello gardenia,

I was never quite clear whether the ego was the same as the self or if it was just the 'sense of self'. So it didn't sink in enough. This had a familiar feel to it, that I knew this. Why would I forget that or lose touch with it I wonder?

Right! This sounds good. When you see through the self-view it isn't like any "new" information has been added -- it's like, as you say, a remembering of something that has always been "known".

In the exercise it took ages. It was as if 'I' was preventing the thoughts from taking over. But eventually there was an unbidden impulse to pick a pen up. There wasn't any agent in control or directing it, it just happened.

Right. Some people resist this simple observation -- it is as if, without the "I" in control, then everything will fall apart!

That there is no "executive I" -- that the Board Room of you life is "empty" is an important thing to see -- so let's just check this point is totally clear. You could try this slightly longer exercise and let me know what comes up:

Find 20 minutes when you don't have anything to do and when you won't be disturbed. Sit quietly in a chair and think of some things that you could usefully do in that time -- tidy the room/make a coffee/cut your nails/read the paper/do nothing. Now just sit and watch as competing thoughts arise and sense the strength of the volition or 'directionality' (cetana) behind them -- notice how an idea can arise and gather energy and it ALMOST eventuates but then the energy falls away and a new idea arises. See that decision isn't a mental event -- but an energetic one. Now during this 20 minutes you are free to do any of the things that occur -- or none -- what happens?

You are doing great!

xx

[Gardenia]

Hi Mark
That was an interesting exercise. As I sat various ideas came to me. If they weren't very interesting there wasn't much energetic response. It was there and then faded away fairly quickly. Then when there was an interesting idea with more energy behind it lasted longer. But I was enjoying just sitting there without filling up my time so the energy was passive but calm and relaxed. Then when I was thinking I really must do a particular thing nothing happened. I had thoughts telling me I really ought to get up and do it but nothing happened. It was only when the energy/volition built up and sort of pushed me out of the chair that anything happened. It was quite funny. The thoughts were definitely not in charge or making any decision. It was great to see that.
Gardenia

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK great.

So where are you at with looking for this --

A paradigm shift so I feel in my guts that there is no inherent self.

Any change in how you felt two weeks ago and how you are feeling now?

[Gardenia]

Hi Mark
I feel clear about seeing there is no inherent self and feel open and happy about it and much lighter and having quite a surge of energy this morning. I'm not sure about a paradigm shift. It was a soft shift if I could put it like that. I suppose it takes people differently. It will be interesting to see what happens now, whether it all fades away when I stop directly thinking about it in an intense situation like this. In some way I feel completely different and in another way I don't feel any different. Breaking the first 3 fetters is supposed to be permanent but can it fade if not given much attention?

May I know who you are Mark and where you are based? My name is Sarala (Linda Bell) living in Norwich.
Thanks for your really good questions.

Sarala x