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[Bill]

Something I found from what a client told me after he had first seen this... thought you might find it interesting.

Today's Observations...

- Personality is not chosen. It just is the way it is. "I" did not choose to have this voice sound this particular way. I do not choose to walk a certain way. The way I walk, talk is not chosen by me. I also couldn't of chosen or have control over having brown hair, hazel eyes, this particular face shape or body structure. How can this be owned if it wasn't even chosen by "me". All of this just is. How could I be the body knowing this?

- I notice what ends up coming out of this mouth just sort of flows out spontaneously. It only appears that "I" am saying things but it doesn't seem to be true in reality. It is labeled afterward that I did it. But in the moment speaking it is just happening.

- Listening to music this morning. What makes me like one song over another? It just seems like a natural choice but I cannot say for 100% certainty that I am choosing to like or dislike anything. Thought has nothing to do with liking or disliking a song.

- Choosing what to wear. What makes a certain outfit be chosen over another. Seems more like a automatic decision and it's just grabbed for some reason and liked enough to wear. But all this happens without thought about it.

- It seems like life just happens and things are chosen but when the I thought is believed there is a resistance to the choices as if they shouldn't of happened, even though they are or did happen. Appears to just be more thought and stories that aren't reality.

- When I say..."This is MY job, MY school, MY family, MY friends...is any of this really true? How could I own any of these things. How are they MINE exclusively? A job, school, and family etc does happen but is there any real possession over them? Doesn't seem so.

- If looked at closely if I take attention into the body although it appears that I chose it. Attention is going there own it's own. Attention is held there or not on it's own. Same with remembering. I do not do remembering. Remembering happens.

- I cannot accurately describe reality (this moment) with any word or accuracy. It would all be describing something in the past or in the future. Reality is in constant motion so you can never grasp it.

- The pain in my back in reality is not my pain. The pain itself is there but like everything else no I is there owning the pain. It's just described as my pain if speaking to another person.

- The most I could say about myself in direct experience is "existence". Saying "I exist" is too much. I can't really describe what's here besides a knowing and that it's alive and very functional all in it's own. There is then nothing doing the looking etc. Life is looking at life with no effort. No thought. It's nothing "special" "mystical" or even "spiritual" for that matter. It's very ordinary and it has always been this way even when thoughts are believed.

[Bill]

hi Pauline,

Yes, I had the same feeling in reading your replies.. that there is not yet a real seeing of this.
do not be alarmed. You are obviously a thought based person, maybe a little more so than the norm.
It has it plusses for sure... and also its 'not so plusses' :)

I've found that the mind, if overwhelmed with evidence will just be quiet for a while and allow this to be heard.
If any of this gets too frustrating.. a short break totally off it can also be a good thing.
Sort of like the idea 'a watched pot never boils'.
Whatever happens, know that you are very close and I want you to keep pushing and digging.

Notice that the looking just happens on its own. There is no you making it happen.
Has this not always been the case? Has looking not always been happening, since you've been alive?
Can looking really be turned on and off? Is there a person in there switching the looking on and off?

You think that something needs to happen to make you 'look'.. a jolt.. an epiphany, a fancy question from me (haha)...
No, the whole point is that you ARE already looking, noticing .. here... now..
You've always been looking.... you just haven't noticed that you are.
Do you notice your heart beating? or your breath? or your hair growing? No of course not.. yet
these all happen. Same with the looking. It is going on as we speak. You are taking in every sense
perception around you. Its there... Look. Just simply notice what is happening.
Remember what Delma said about this being so simple and easy it confounds most.
Its simply seeing what is here. We want to see what is actually happening versus what we think is happening.
Huge difference. This is a getting down to the nitty gritty physicality and seeing what the eyes and senses actually take in.

About the fear incident.
This sounds like a good thing this happened.
If its still there, see if you can be with the fear, relax as best you can and just sit with it.
allow it to just be there and inquire. Look behind the fear.
Is there anything other than 'thoughts' or an idea of fear?
Tell more about the fear if it is still there.. sometime these just pop in and are gone in a flash.

[PaulineF]

Hi Bill :)

I'm not sure where to go with this right now - on one hand, too much thinking, on the other, plain forgetting - it all sounds so obvious what you're saying, but I know that it's not fully felt. I know that's all 'normal' - it doesn't bother me ... Well, maybe it does - it can be frustrating. You may be right in that I expect something to happen or something to be said that will allow 'the reveal' - like if I could only look at this a certain way, if i could look at this the right way, then there it would be. That doesn't seem unreasonable - afterall, that's how life has normally appeared to happen ... do this, and that will happen. Anyway. I'm not going to tie myself in knots again going round and round and with this, thinking about what's going on, why that's happening, why this isn't' - it just seems futile, and talking about it seems a waste of time too. It's clear it all comes down to the same thing, over and over, 'just look!', and I just want to let that sit with me for a couple of days - that 'short break' you mentioned. Actually, I've found that approach works for me whenever I'm overthinking anything ... I'll go completely overboard just thinking, then it's just dropped.

I'll keep looking and digging and get back to you in a couple of days with where I'm at (hopefully nowhere ;) - appreciating your guidance as always, Bill - thanks for what you're doing :)

[Bill]

Hello Pauline,

This sounds like a good thing to do. If you can put all of this away for a time and just watch and look at life. Go out in nature if you have the opportunity. I feel you're very close. Take as much time as you want and need.

You don't have to do anything special to see this, just be what you already are... and just look.

Talk to you in a few days!
Bill

[PaulineF]

Hi Bill - it feels like the right time to jump back in to the conversation :) It's been two weeks since I signed out for a break and I'm ready to go again. No profound insights to share ... I pretty much wanted to drop the overthinking and tying myself in knots and it was nice to do that, tho I confess, it was difficult to drop it altogether. There's still been dipping in and out of the LU pdf and the forum, and some half-hearted trying to get somewhere or do something, but the urge and impulse persists to see what's going on. Well, here I am. Where to next?! :)

ps - hope you're well!

[Bill]

Thats great to hear.
lets try and keep this easy and light and just have a talk and see where it leads...
but first...

To get back in the swing of things.....
Could you read your entire thread, from the very first post onward?
This is good not only as a review, but also you can see where you are on things now.
Please relate what you find... especially any seeking left... and any other expectations you're having right now of this process.

Glad you are back!

Bill

[PaulineF]

Hi Bill -

That was actually an interesting exercise to read our thread from the start. There were a few things that struck me while re-reading our dialogue - a) how much I ‘think’ about all this, and how I use thinking to try to sort things out (no kidding!) … and b) a distrust of what I was actually saying in some of my answers … mostly, ‘Did I really say that? Sounds awesome!’, and ‘Do I actually know that? I can’t be sure!’. I realise that may sound a bit odd … maybe not … but I guess what I’m trying to say is that there was too much analyzing and thinking going on as opposed to actually looking. So when I said’ Yes, I get that, there is no self!’ - or somesuch - I’m really not at all sure I was coming from a place of looking … that if I really did experience what I was saying I was experiencing, and knowing what I was saying I knew, then we wouldn’t be having this dialogue. Does that make sense to you?

The seeking continues - I want/expect this shift in perception. I expect to see, to look and to see. It’s clear that’s not happened and until it does, I’m not sure I’ll be satisfied. Don’t get me wrong … there have been points over the last couple of weeks where I thought I wouldn’t bother coming back here… what does it matter, who cares anyway, life will go on regardless, along with Pauline, I can just get on with things without the frustration and over-thinking … But then, damn, the desire to see is still strong. I’m not sure I can just move on and pretend we hadn’t started down this road.

Expectations now? That we’ll talk some more, that at some point something will happen and the shift in perception will occur. But - I must be honest and say I feel a bit lame for not getting it ( I wanted to see quickly - I’m pretty sure everyone does), I get concerned that I never will, and that not getting it will cause some kind of negative effect on my poor psyche ;) . Also, I was thinking more about what I expected to happen post-seeing, and realised (eventually!) that I do see it as some gateway to something else … I’ve mentioned this before (in my intro?) - that once I’ve seen I can crack on with the ‘other stuff’ and it will be easier because I’ll have seen thru the illusion and I’ll be unburdened with identification with the self … it’s like I need to get this ‘out of the way’ because it seems that seeing thru the illusion of the separate self seems to underpin all that other sht I’m interested in … meditation, mindfulness, dealing with negative emotions, walking the path … that stuff.

What else can I tell you?

Thanks, Bill!

[Bill]

Very good stuff Pauline...

I do like your very frank and honest description of things and your self honesty about where you are at.
This will go a long way here. Its so important to just be who you are and tell it like it is. That is definately in
your favor. You can feel very lucky to have this ability.
I want you to know I'm willing to be here as long as you need.. I'd like your commitment to stay until such time
we both agree to stop. I've seen many get very close and for whatever reason (fear usually) they quit right before
the thing is seen. I can't guarantee anything for you here but I have a good feeling about where you are and I do
feel you're very close.. ... So just stick with it.

One thing we missed from a few posts ago.. and I was going to bring it up just before you took your break.
It was a question I asked about the 'story of Pauline'.

Can you see the story of Pauline? The conditioning that has accumulated since your childhood is like coat after coat being put over reality, so that life becomes more and more weighty, tight and confined. One by one, these coats can be looked at, and seen. Some may hang on, some may disappear and dissolve. Each time this happens, it is a small liberation.

Can you see how this story has built up over time into the solid mass it is today?
How many 'coats' are left to take off?
What might be under them all?

If you just stop..and look.. can you see that you are here and aware?
Nothing is required to do to see this, its so easy to see and is really undeniable.
Has this feeling not been with you since day one?
This is essentially the root of looking and is very easy if thought of like this.
This feeling is what I'm pointing to.. this feeling of being here, alive and aware.

Im going to continue to ask you to look.. like before.
You dont need to answer each of these... but please do the looking.
Thats the only real important part of this.

There is no self. Is it true?
Look.

[PaulineF]

Hi Bill - thank you for your kind words and commitment to guiding me - it really does mean alot, and gratitude arises :)

I just wanted to check in here, let you know I've seen your response and look forward to replying later today when I have some time. In the meantime, easy, no-hassle looking is occurring and checking of these 'layers' is going on ... frustration is minimal ;) Will be back tonight to let you know where I'm at.

Thanks, Bill!

[PaulineF]

Hi Bill

One thing we missed from a few posts ago.. and I was going to bring it up just before you took your break.
It was a question I asked about the 'story of Pauline'.
Can you see the story of Pauline? The conditioning that has accumulated since your childhood is like coat after coat being put over reality, so that life becomes more and more weighty, tight and confined. One by one, these coats can be looked at, and seen. Some may hang on, some may disappear and dissolve. Each time this happens, it is a small liberation.
Can you see how this story has built up over time into the solid mass it is today?
How many 'coats' are left to take off?
What might be under them all?

Thanks for the reminder on this one … I remember the question, and like quite a few of these questions I’m pretty sure I looked at it and thought, yeah, I can see the story … yada yada yada … but I didn’t really investigate it. It’s funny, because it’s so easy to answer these guiding questions in a matter-of-fact way, and actually, maybe in quite an arrogant way too (I speak only for myself!) - ‘Sure I can see the story of Pauline! Of course I can! Jeezo already … I can see it’s made up and it’s just a fiction’. But of course, the point is that I don’t. Now here’s the thing … if I stop being so arsey and actually do what’s asked of me, then I look properly and really try to see what’s going on. Then something else happens. Looking back thru our dialogue from start to finish, I noted down something you had said.

You said, There are no words to adequately describe how to see, no maps of how to get there; all I can do is Point to where you should look. This is not a mental exercise; all the thinking you can ever do will never get you there. I will give you clue, because I was also a Thinker. Just before I saw it, I suddenly realised that my guide was telling me to LOOK, not to Think. When I looked, I saw it.What is Looking? It is focusing on your Direct Experience. Seeing with the eyes, hearing with the ears, feeling with the skin, smelling with the nose, tasting with the tongue. Sensation, before it is judged and labeled, is direct experience.

Now this is something you’ve said from the start … and it’s something that’s said in every thread on LU, by every guide, and yet …. And yet it’s actually something that I overlook, because my default reaction is to do exactly what you say it’s not - I turn it into a mental exercise. I can see that there are points where thinking is required for this investigation - that goes without saying - but for the actual looking, for seeing what’s going on, well that requires something which none of us are used to doing … and that is the whole ‘experiencing directly’. It occurs to me that I score quite poorly in that realm ;)

So the story of Pauline. If I look, there’s what’s happening around me. The stuff in my visual field … there’s just the stuff there, and the seeing happening. There might be movement just happening, the fingers typing, the seeing and reading of the screen, the sound of a car outside, the hearing … stuff arising, the labelling - a car, the screen, the fingers - the thoughts. Where’s Pauline? Well she’s there when the thinking comes up and the I-ing and the me-ing, but I get that she’s just a story. It feels funny to write that, but it feels true too. The layers have been piled on for a long time - each of us feeding the I-ness of everyone else, each of us layering more and more on each other and ourselves. That seems fine too, but I can see how sticky it all is. I can see that Pauline was doing this, and that happened in life, then she was this, and then something else, and the story just kept going on and on and on, like a crazy pen-letter that got out of hand, a gigantic map that made/makes it feel like something real and solid. And yet, I can see the fragility of it all - it’s like a house of cards. One story propping up another propping up another … and on and on ad infinitum - until one card is taken away and every story, every description, every idea and belief starts to fall in on itself like a dying star (forgive my analogy - it's the image that came to mind :). I can think about any moment in my life and say ‘that happened to me/I did that/I went there/I lived there/I learned that’ - but when I really look at that, all that’s found is a thought. Layers just seem to be thoughts, and in the end, there's only one layer that needs to come off.

I’m going to stop there for now otherwise this is going to turn into another novella, and I can feel myself slipping into Pauline Pontificating mode which is not where I want to go right now. Stopping and looking, remembering and looking, it’s going on and there’s more of a freedom in this the past couple of days. I’m going to carry on doing that.

Thanks, Bill - and thanks for keeping on telling me to look :) I have to admit, I did laugh yesterday when I read your ‘I’m just going to continue to ask you to look’. I know that’s all you need to tell me and it’s all I need to hear and it makes the most perfect sense. Please keep asking me - it feels like I’m close :)

With the gratitude as always, P.

[Bill]

Hello Pauline,

I like how you are noticing your own thoughts and behavior and motives and seeing how they are affecting you.
You are so correct with the looking.. it is really all that's needed and you feel very close to me.
For me, I had gotten to a similar point.. nothing had really broken thru and then while walkingI said the word "I" and
something just opened up for an instant that I could see, literally that this "I" was simply a thought. Looking back on that now, I had put down the analyzing for a while and was just doing nothing and simply looking at what what around me.

Here's another good read I'd recommend on a sporadic, when it hits you basis: :)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5791&start=15#p204972

Still reading the Gateless Gatecrasher's? anything in there to discuss or remark on?


I think what I'd like to do is give you several small exercises per posting....
Some may be a bit of a repeat but dont let that dissuade you from doing them.
You dont have to remark on them or agree or disagree unless they jump out at you
either postively or negatively. Just let them soak in...

_______________

How about the body? Is that owned, in reality, by a “me”? As you move around in your ordinary life, check and see if you can find a “self” moving the body around — walking, driving, typing, picking up a cup. Is there a “who” living your life? Or are there thoughts about everything, including a self, apparently living your life?
--------------------

Is there a witness?
A looker, A see-er?
An understander?
If you look, what is here now?
--------------------

Now in any circumstance, any situation, in the past or in an imagined future — can there ever be a you which is not an idea, thought, or habit? In this very moment, is there a “you” which is not an idea? The truth is really simple and obvious. It takes a little courage to look, but once recognized it will become clear. Look in immediate direct experience. Is there a self, other than habitual thoughts of a self? Has there ever been anything but a story about you?
--------------------

What is the self?
Where do you look to find it?
What is a story made up of?
--------------------

There is no self. Is it true?
How do we find the answer?

[PaulineF]

Hi Bill

I wanted to check in and let you know that I'm taking a look again at the exercises you outlined your latest post ... it's useful to look at these again - just asking and looking, asking and looking ... Lately I remarked on more spaciousness around this looking, and this continues. I've not looked at GG lately - need to dip back to that too. There's a kind of 'take it or leave it' going on with me right now ... and a bit of laziness. Sometimes the frustration is arising, and sometimes the concern/worry that I'm going to chuck it all in. You've said that many folks get close, then stop. I get concerned that I'll do the same ... Then I remind myself that would be impossible - regardless of where I'm at, I'm compelled to keep looking, if not just because I know I won't be satisfied until the shift occurs. It *can* be frustrating - I read thru your questions and know the answers to them. And despite this, it still seems there is something else to do, to get, to realise. The comeback to that would be that all these things I think I need to do are just thoughts ... the self looking to get something, when there is no self. That can cause the knotty feeling :)

Anyway, I'm still 'on it' - I'll keep checking in to let you know where I'm at.

Thanks, Bill!

[Bill]

Hi Pauline,

Your post surprised me somewhat...Im not sure exactly what you're saying... Are you stopping the guiding?
Or dont want to respond to questions anymore? I had thought from your previous posts you wanted to resume...
I hope you do. The back and forth dialogue and feedback helps hone in on where to look. Its not that easy alone to do this as we really can't be very objective with ourself (as you are well aware I'm sure).
I understand how you could be discouraged with this.. it takes a lot of determination to stick with it and at times it feels totally ungettable, frustrating, maddening.... I do respect your choice either way you go and my hope is that you stay with it. One thing I feel for sure after being with you here for a few weeks - No one knows better than you Pauline what you have to lose if you quit.

It *can* be frustrating - I read thru your and know the answers to them. And despite this, it still seems there is something else to do, to get, to realise.

The only thing is to take that 'look'. Its the only way to 'see' this. Its all that's left really. Nothing more to realize or 'get'.

I'm compelled to keep looking, if not just because I know I won't be satisfied until the shift occurs.

A "shift" assumes that something happens to someone. Nothing shifts. this may be part of whats occluding this. You are waiting for the big change and need it to have proof. Seeing this is enough. There is no 'one' to get anything here. Can life change? Why would it or should it?

[PaulineF]

Hi Bill :)

Your post surprised me somewhat...Im not sure exactly what you're saying... Are you stopping the guiding?

No! I’m not stopping the guiding :) I can see why you’d think that’s what I might have been suggesting - but I’m determined to carry on. It's important to me that I'm being honest on this journey ... I'm sorry for causing confusion with my honesty.

I seem to be at a stage now where there’s the thoughts arising (OK - so I was at this stage a couple of weeks ago too ;) that I’m not going to ‘get it’, which is discouraging, and yes, frustrating. It’s like I can’t move past that, and the longer I’m at that place, the easier it is to just say, ‘fuck it’. It’s like anything in life … I’m well aware of my own shortcomings in that if I don’t get to where I want to be quickly, then wherever it is I’m trying to get will just become something else to be discarded. Like learning a musical instrument, or a new language or being a good cook or whatever … anything that takes dedication and focus. I expect to be able to learn or pick it up straight away, and when I can’t, it gets binned. I’m afraid this seems no different - though I realise, like you say, that

One thing I feel for sure after being with you here for a few weeks - No one knows better than you Pauline what you have to lose if you quit. Which is why I’m still here.

It feels maddening to hear over and over again, Just Look! It sounds so simple, and I’m sure it is, and I’m also sure that at some point, when I do just look, that I’ll say, jesus, so simple! And yet, where I’m at right now, it seems that it’s not that simple at all…. All these insecurities arise … I must be looking wrong, I must be stupid, there must be a correct way to look, there must be something to do to look the right way. I imagine frustration arising for you, and I feel embarrassed that I’m so slow. The nice thing about this is that I can see, when I look at these thoughts and feelings, that that’s all they are … which is somewhat comforting :)

You say

A "shift" assumes that something happens to someone. Nothing shifts. this may be part of whats occluding this. You are waiting for the big change and need it to have proof. Seeing this is enough.

Yes, I do expect a shift! We’ve talked about this before - a shift in perception :) Of course that’s expected, otherwise what would I be doing here. You’re guiding me - guiding me to what? To do something? What?

There is no 'one' to get anything here. Can life change? Why would it or should it?

Will life change? Life is happening, so no. Nothing different. Will Pauline change? No - Pauline is happening too, however she’s happening. Will something change? In the final analysis, nothing can change … but things continue to happen, and I cannot deny that I expect a thing to happen. It’s clear that this happens for people being guided. … it’s clear that something happens. Maybe the words are somehow incorrect, I don’t know. Did something happen for you? If I ask directions in a strange city and someone tells me to go down that street, turn left, hop on the No 47 bus and then I’ll arrive 5 minutes later, I expect to get to the destination. That’s how I see this - though I admit I can see this expectation is nothing more than thoughts and sensations. That’s what I keep coming back to - looking and seeing that what’s going on is just thoughts and sensations arising. Life is happening regardless.

Anyway, the long and short of it is that yes, I’m for sure continuing with the guiding … appreciating your being here, Bill - your own patience and commitment.

Gratitude as always, P.

[Bill]

Ok good Pauline... Im glad you're staying with this. You're right, I was confused about your response a few days ago.

I would like to see some more examples of what simple looking is for you.. all we need is one of them to be 'seen' by you. I have plenty of these to try out, and who knows what it might be that could be a catalyst to help you look. We'll try them all if needed.
I dont want you to feel bad about any of this... Many have gotten to this point and threw up their hands... Its seems like for whatever reason, the brain wont allow itself to shut off enough to take this good pure honest look that we want. You could think of looking as the most natural condition you could have. Just being here would be a good description.
We want to move from the land of concepts and ideas.. down to the nitty gritty stuff.. that stuff we can see, sense, feel and touch. This sensing is where the looking is happening.
---
Something I wrote a while ago:

See that what you are looking for, searching for... is here, right now.
Its already here.
Its always been here. We just haven't noticed it.
We're always looking for something more.
LOOK. truly LOOK at what's here now. Just simply notice how things are.
This moment, right now, is the one you've wanted your whole life.
There's nothing, absolutely nothing that needs to be changed in it
or in you, on your insides or your outer circumstances.

The brain says no, No, NO! It can't be this simple.
Its got to be different than this, more flashy,
greater insight, more bliss, oneness.... and on and on and on.
So we overlook THIS moment in hopes of a better one.
Of course that 'one' is to come sometime off in the future. The future that never arrives...
This is the delusion. That this moment is not the one.
That this is not IT!
How could this precious moment NOT be it?

When you see it, truly SEE it, you can relax and know that this moment is the one.
It's just ordinary everyday life as it is. We don't have to hope for something better.
The seeking can stop. We can put all the books back on the shelf.
No more teachers and classes or satsangs are needed either...
There's nothing to learn really - we already have what we're seeking.. and always have had it.
We know this is true when its seen... there's no denying it.
We can't lose this either - where would it go?

---

Try these for a few exercises: some will only take a few seconds. Its important to actually do them if more than thinking is needed. Report on what you notice while you're doing them, if anything. Take your time with them.


Look at a chair. Do you see the chair? Look at your self. Do you see a self?
_______________________________________________
STOP THINKING!
___________________________________________
Don't think, look.
___________________________________________
When there is no thought, where are you?
___________________________________________
Is there someone investigating this or is investigating happening?
___________________________________________
We're looking to see if there's anything real behind any fear you might have... And if there's really a 'you' there. A real one. Is there one you can really find? LOOK!
___________________________________________
Hear the sound of the traffic. Can you hear the self in the same way?Feel your feet touching the ground. Can you feel the self in the same way?Notice that internal picture. Is it "you" or just a picture?
___________________________________________

then this one:
Please sit and close your eyes and look for the me that you think you are. First look and see if there is some location that its located. See if the actual location of the me can be found. Report back with your experience.