Susie, come on in!

[Susie]

Thought my husband was off work today but he isn't. Nice and quiet here all day. :)

There is a finger, in reality. It is at the end of the arm. When the finger points to the 'you' that you said was walking around in your body, what do the eyes see the finger pointing to? LOOK.
Nothing!

What is self? Where does it come from?
Self is nothing. Self comes from no where.

Good question! LOOK! Does the body, in your experience, 'follow thoughts'?? Thought comes first and then body follows it? Or does action come first and thought arises "I did it". LOOK at your experience, Susie. What happens In Reality??
The action is coming first and then the thoughts come that "I DID IT".
How did you find out there was no self? I LOOKED and couldn't find self anywhere. Continual illusory thoughts coming even though there is no self. The thoughts come like THAT IS YOUR CAR, THAT IS YOUR SHIRT. I just ignore them.

Right here, right now, sitting at the computer, Point with your finger to 'you'. Do it!!! Now LOOK with your eyes at what the finger is pointing to. WHAT is it?? What do you SEE?
I can't find anything to point to. At first to be honest I was going to point to my body but my body is NOT me.

I wrote "I took the time to just rest and meditate" and then wanted to erase the "I". LOL. Does it mean I still believe in the self if I write I? I was just noticing my breathing in and out. The thoughts came and went with no meaning. I was peaceful.

I have been taking the time to really FOCUS and LOOK as I went about my day. A lot of the time there was just the moment. Just what was happening was happening. There was peace and when thoughts would come they would just float away.
Susie

[nonaparry]

There is a finger, in reality. It is at the end of the arm. When the finger points to the 'you' that you said was walking around in your body, what do the eyes see the finger pointing to? LOOK.

Nothing!

Then what happened that you thought 'you' hollered at your husband? Is there a 'you' that hollers?

What is self? Where does it come from?

Self is nothing. Self comes from no where.

Self is not nothing. Most people have a very strong sense of self; so strong, in fact, that self claims ownership of property and takes credit for experience. Self is definitely something. What is it??

How did you find out there was no self?

I LOOKED and couldn't find self anywhere. Continual illusory thoughts coming even though there is no self. The thoughts come like THAT IS YOUR CAR, THAT IS YOUR SHIRT. I just ignore them.

If you ignore thoughts long enough, they are liable to pop up and bite you in the a**.
Rather than ignore them, let us check them out, discover whether they are true. A thought that is SEEN to be false, like the thought "Santa Claus exists in reality" can never be unseen. When you know what is true, you don't suddenly start believing the lie.

When you LOOKed, you couldn't find self anywhere. So, what is Susie?

Right here, right now, sitting at the computer, Point with your finger to 'you'. Do it!!! Now LOOK with your eyes at what the finger is pointing to. WHAT is it?? What do you SEE?

I can't find anything to point to. At first to be honest I was going to point to my body but my body is NOT me.

Yes; body is not 'me'. What IS me, then?

I wrote "I took the time to just rest and meditate" and then wanted to erase the "I". LOL. Does it mean I still believe in the self if I write I?

Good question. There are actually languages that do not have an "I"; unfortunately English is not one of them. We are stuck using language to communicate, and the language we are using has a firm "I".

So ask you: Does thought "I" mean you still believe in the self? Is self a belief? How does one come to believe in self?

I was just noticing my breathing in and out. The thoughts came and went with no meaning. I was peaceful.

This one finds such simple direct experience very peaceful too. No mind chatter describing what is going on, trying to patch it all together in a seamless story.

I have been taking the time to really FOCUS and LOOK as I went about my day. A lot of the time there was just the moment. Just what was happening was happening. There was peace and when thoughts would come they would just float away.

Very peaceful.
So, where is 'self' when you are in direct experience of breathing?

Keep looking for Truth!
love
Nona

[Susie]

Then what happened that you thought 'you' hollered at your husband? Is there a 'you' that hollers?
There is the body believing the lies of thought and tries to make a story out of them.

Self is not nothing. Most people have a very strong sense of self; so strong, in fact, that self claims ownership of property and takes credit for experience. Self is definitely something. What is it??

WOW, how confusing. You tell me there is NO SELF and there never has been and then you tell me Self is not nothing. So which is it? Is there a SELF or is there not? If you are trying to get me to see TRUTH well I'm looking and looking and if there is a SELF that people think they have it is delusional thoughts or the EGO.

So ask you: Does thought "I" mean you still believe in the self? Is self a belief? How does one come to believe in self?
No there is no self, self is a belief. You believe in self by believing lies.

So, where is 'self' when you are in direct experience of breathing?
I don't realize a self when I am in direct experience of breathing.
Susie

[nonaparry]

Then what happened that you thought 'you' hollered at your husband? Is there a 'you' that hollers?

There is the body believing the lies of thought and tries to make a story out of them.

How does the body do this? Does the hand believe the lies? Or the chest?

WOW, how confusing. You tell me there is NO SELF and there never has been and then you tell me Self is not nothing. So which is it? Is there a SELF or is there not? If you are trying to get me to see TRUTH well I'm looking and looking and if there is a SELF that people think they have it is delusional thoughts or the EGO.

This is only confusing if no-self is a Belief.
We are not trying to teach you a new belief here; we want you to SEE in your own experience what is always True.

Self is not nothing; i notice that you know that! You say

if there is a SELF that people think they have it is delusional thoughts or the EGO.

So what is 'self'?

So ask you: Does thought "I" mean you still believe in the self? Is self a belief? How does one come to believe in self?

No there is no self, self is a belief. You believe in self by believing lies.

Please describe how one comes to believe in self by believing lies.

So, where is 'self' when you are in direct experience of breathing?

I don't realize a self when I am in direct experience of breathing.

Exactly. So does breathing require a breather in order to happen?
Does thinking require a thinker?
Does living require a live-er?
Does Susie require a self in order to function and live life?

What is Susie? In reality. Please answer this fully.

You are doing so well here; i admire your determination to see through the illusion!
love
Nona

[Susie]

How does the body do this? Does the hand believe the lies? Or the chest?
The MIND believes the lies.

So what is 'self'?
Self is a series of thoughts that are false in pointing to ownership of anything!

Please describe how one comes to believe in self by believing lies.
One comes to believe in self by parental/society conditioning. Repeated thoughts and behaviors of specialism.

Exactly. So does breathing require a breather in order to happen?
Does thinking require a thinker?
Does living require a live-er?
Does Susie require a self in order to function and live life?
NO, NO, NO, NO!

What is Susie? In reality. Please answer this fully.
Susie is an illusion, a false belief, a conditioned response to how one is treated, a non existent story.

[nonaparry]

How does the body do this? Does the hand believe the lies? Or the chest?

The MIND believes the lies.

And what is mind?? What is mind made of? Is it in the body? Can you point to it?

So what is 'self'?

Self is a series of thoughts that are false in pointing to ownership of anything!

Please elaborate. Tell me from your direct experience of Susie exactly what self is. Tell me as if you were answering the question on a test.

Where is Susie? In your experience?

[Susie]

The mind is made up of unreal thoughts. NO I can't point to it.
Susie isn't. She never was and never will be. In my experience when I look I can't find any Susie
and I can't point to any Susie.

[nonaparry]

I'm pretty sure you've got it intellectually; mind is clear that there is no self.
i'm less sure i have been as vigilant about experientially. What is it that has me feel you are not through the gate?
Are you clear? There is not a shred of a Susie that is going to pop up next week, next month, next year?
It is my *job* to be certain; and i am not. Can you think of something that might be not 100% clear?
I don't want to hold you back just because i am not sure.

i'm going to give you the Five Questions anyway, and ask you write a 'rant' in answer to them. Short one-line answers are no good here; you are to be honest like you have never been honest.
When you have answered these to the best of your ability, other guides will come have a look and suggest points i need to clarify with you.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

If you are unsure you can answer one or any of these, let me know and we will address it. i want for you to know liberation; and it has to be Experientially or it won't stick. Let's get it right!

love
Nona

[Susie]

There is NO me anywhere as you say intellectually but to be totally honest when you ask was there ever I would say yes that I thought there was and there are still times now where there are thoughts of possession and doing in my experience but couldn't they just be ego thoughts? I become aware of the thoughts and then I go to the awareness of now and they disappear.
I didn't answer the questions as you were right that it's apparently not 100% clear.

[nonaparry]

I didn't answer the questions as you were right that it's apparently not 100% clear.

Thank you. i apologise for somehow failing you. Let us begin again with Experiencing.

There is NO me anywhere as you say intellectually but to be totally honest when you ask was there ever I would say yes that I thought there was

Good! You THOUGHT there was a you; and what is a thought? What is it made of? Is the content of a thought ever Real??

and there are still times now where there are thoughts of possession and doing in my experience but couldn't they just be ego thoughts?

Okay. Good.
Lift a hand.
Move it right. Move it left. Did a self move the hand?
a)Is it truer to say that the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?
b)Is the usual story "I moved the hand?"
c) is the "doer" story real?

Apart from a thought, does a self actually own or do? Please look and see! As you are walking around, check out the thoughts running about what you are doing.

Can you find a lot of thoughts ABOUT a self?
Thoughts that say "I" chose to do things, I direct things"
Can a thought actually choose? Or does it just report on events as they happen? or after they happen?
Which appears to be true? Let's check.

You can find thoughts ABOUT self.
You can find thoughts ABOUT tasks and process that don't have much self story attached.
A whole world in the thoughts ABOUT the world.
In direct observation, life just seems to be happening, outside of thought!

Can it be that we build a self-story about ownership and doer-ship entirely out of thought? Please look and check!

I become aware of the thoughts and then I go to the awareness of now and they disappear.

In the face of direct experience, thoughts pale. Direct experience is lively, colourful; thoughts are weak and colourless in comparison! A thought is a mental process ABOUT an experience; it can never be as exciting or fulfilling as the experience itself. Furthermore, although thoughts themselves are real, their content is always imaginary. That is, the thought about a Cup is real; you actually experience it. But the cup IN the thought is imaginary. It is the map instead of the territory. It is a thought that Points to a real cup; but it is not a real cup itself—you cannot drink out of the Thought of a cup.

i look forward to your honest response!
love
Nona

[Susie]

Thank you. i apologise for somehow failing you. Let us begin again with Experiencing.
No need to apologize. You didn't anything wrong. We fail when we quit. We aren't done until I'm through the gate. :)

Good! You THOUGHT there was a you; and what is a thought? What is it made of? Is the content of a thought ever Real??
Thought is an illusion and are not real.

Did a self move the hand?
a)Is it truer to say that the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?
b)Is the usual story "I moved the hand?"
c) is the "doer" story real?
The self didn't move anything. It is an automatic thing. There were no thoughts associated with the movement. If I take the time to THINK about it I can put a DO to it but it really is only an automatic thing that happens. The DOER is not a real story. 56 years of conditioning has taught me that it is all me. Religious teaching has taught me that I have the will.....free will. I have preached and talked CHOICES for years and years.

Apart from a thought, does a self actually own or do? Please look and see! As you are walking around, check out the thoughts running about what you are doing.
You are right...........it is just thought. When I take thought out of the experience it just happens with no ownership.

Can you find a lot of thoughts ABOUT a self?
Thoughts that say "I" chose to do things, I direct things"
Can a thought actually choose? Or does it just report on events as they happen? or after they happen?
Which appears to be true? Let's check.
No I can't find a lot of thoughts about a self. It use to be ALL self until I came here. NO a thought change choose. AH HA...........A thought can't chose a thought! HUM! Ya it seems that there is just a report when things happens.

Can it be that we build a self-story about ownership and doer-ship entirely out of thought? Please look and check!
YES, I do SEE that we build the self-story. It feels good to be special but in reality there is no ownership or doing by a self.

In the face of direct experience, thoughts pale.
Yes, that is what is happening to me. I seem to be MUCH more present. More in the now of what is happening. Thoughts aren't as prevalent as they once were.

A thought is a mental process ABOUT an experience; it can never be as exciting or fulfilling as the experience itself.
AH......gotcha!
Thanks for your continued patience. You haven't slapped me .......... yet! :)
Susie

[nonaparry]

Wow!!! This is Really Good Work!! And look at how far you have come!!!!!
i went back to the beginning of our conversation to look for any stray thoughts that i didn't address, and the difference is amazing!!!

The one thought i found that i ought to have addressed at the time is this:

Point with your finger to Who hollers and gets mad, and tell me what you see.

I can't point to anything because it is just happening. Why it is, I'm not sure. You say it is life. Well what is determining life, when it happens and why it happens?

Nothing is determining life. Check it out!
Life is simply life-ing. All the bits of life that we think are separate are actually part of one gigantic whole. No part is separate or special; no part is the director, the determiner, the president of Life. When Susie is experiencing the moment, the NOW, you have noticed this.

Keep looking at your daily experiences; look for the moment the "I" label gets attached to movement, to doingness. There is an experience, and sometimes the thought comes up: "I" did it. Watch for it. Be like a detective, ready to spot it! Experience happens, and a thought labels it. Ask is it true—is it true that a self that you cannot locate physically somehow popped up at just that moment and DID the action. Isn't it truer that actions do themselves? That when you notice an action happening, your thoughts label it and assign it to a 'me' that supposedly did it??

We fail when we quit. We aren't done until I'm through the gate. :)

Thank you. Again i admire your perseverance!

Good! You THOUGHT there was a you; and what is a thought? What is it made of? Is the content of a thought ever Real??

Thought is an illusion and are not real.

Hmmmmmm. This one is still a confuser, i see.
Let's try this: when you look around the room, you see the furniture. You experience it with your five senses; you know it's real.
Now think of a watermelon. Close your eyes and imagine you are holding a large watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly, that you feel its weight, shape, temperature, texture of the skin, its scent, the hollow sound when you knock on it. Hold it there, sensing it vividly. Now open your eyes.
What happened to a melon? How about the sensation that was so believable?

That melon was only inside a Thought.
You HAD the thought; you sensed the thought; that you had the thought is undeniable!! Thoughts are real experiences that we really have.
Only the melon in the thought was imaginary. The sense of weight was real; the sense of texture was real; the sense of scent was real—all the sensations that we have are real sensations. But sometimes we have a sensation that is not caused by something Real. Like the sensation of an imagined watermelon. Or the sense of 'self'. We sense a self, usually quite vividly. But like the melon, it isn't there in reality.

Thoughts are real; we really have them. They tell us all kinds of things about our experiences. But the contents of thought are the same as the imaginary melon; they are not real. They are like a map of a real place: the map is not the place, it is only an image of the place.

Is this any clearer?

If I take the time to THINK about it I can put a DO to it but it really is only an automatic thing that happens.

Exactly!!!

The DOER is not a real story. 56 years of conditioning has taught me that it is all me. Religious teaching has taught me that I have the will.....free will. I have preached and talked CHOICES for years and years.

The conditioning is thoughts; the teaching is thoughts. Free will is a thought. Choice is just a thought. We get taught this stuff, and we think it; at some point we come to Believe it! But the content of these teachings is not true. When you LOOK with your eyes open, you cannot SEE a Free Will or a Chooser; Life simply happens without any direction or control from some imaginary Chooser! You might as well insist that Life is run by Tinkerbell or Batman. Those are fictional characters in a story.

LOOK! Susie is also a fictional character in a story.

When I take thought out of the experience it just happens with no ownership.

Yes. Keep looking. All experience is happening without 'you'. All of it. The story of a Susie is completely unnecessary to your life!

No I can't find a lot of thoughts about a self. It use to be ALL self until I came here.

Hahahaha!! Keep digging; we want to find any remaining thoughts of self, of ownership and doer-ship.

AH HA...........A thought can't chose a thought! HUM! Ya it seems that there is just a report when things happens.

Good one!!! This is a big step! A thought cannot choose a thought.

And so if Susie/self = collection of thoughts, and thought cannot choose a thought, then Susie cannot choose a thought. LOOK to see the truth of this!
Who chooses your thoughts? Is it true that you can choose a happy thought or change a sad one?

I seem to be MUCH more present. More in the now of what is happening. Thoughts aren't as prevalent as they once were.

SEEing that thoughts are only stories about present experience often results in feeling more in the now.

You're doing great. Keep investigating and reporting!

[Susie]

Life is simply life-ing. All the bits of life that we think are separate are actually part of one gigantic whole. No part is separate or special; no part is the director, the determiner, the president of Life. When Susie is experiencing the moment, the NOW, you have noticed this.
How do you know this? Where did you learn this from? I guess with my biblical background I was thinking God set LIFE up, but the mess it is man-kind must have. :)

Thoughts are real; we really have them. They tell us all kinds of things about our experiences. But the contents of thought are the same as the imaginary melon; they are not real. They are like a map of a real place: the map is not the place, it is only an image of the place.
So thoughts are like containers that hold illusions?
Is this any clearer? YES!

Who chooses your thoughts? Is it true that you can choose a happy thought or change a sad one?
It is weird. It still seems as I can! If I am sad.........I stop.......think happy thoughts and I get happier. How come my mind seems to feel and change emotions? SO life just knows to change from sad to happy & mythoughts are taking credit?

[nonaparry]

Life is simply life-ing. All the bits of life that we think are separate are actually part of one gigantic whole. No part is separate or special; no part is the director, the determiner, the president of Life. When Susie is experiencing the moment, the NOW, you have noticed this.

How do you know this? Where did you learn this from? I guess with my biblical background I was thinking God set LIFE up, but the mess it is man-kind must have. :)

i know it from direct experience. i LOOK and i SEE it is so. It is Fact. You have seen it, too! You have commented on it. Now mind, uncomfortable at losing 'self', is suggesting that there is something 'wrong' about this. But in reality it is factual. Life simply IS. Be-ingness is simply be-ing. There is no Director. No one is In Charge. No one. Not even god.
LOOK! Do you see a god that set life up?? When you observe with your eyes that life is simply going on with no director, do you really think a god is needed to keep life going?? LOOK and See!! No god; no director; life is living itself just fine. THIS is how it is; everything is simply happening. No cause/effect, no one in charge.

So thoughts are like containers that hold illusions?

Yes! Just so! Thoughts are real, and their contents are illusory. Good noticing!!!

Who chooses your thoughts? Is it true that you can choose a happy thought or change a sad one?

It is weird. It still seems as I can! If I am sad.........I stop.......think happy thoughts and I get happier. How come my mind seems to feel and change emotions? SO life just knows to change from sad to happy & mythoughts are taking credit?

Where is this "I" that can choose what to think?? Where? POINT to this "I" with your finger and tell me what you see! LOOK!
Emotions are Real! They are thoughts; they really arise. You feel them because they are there. But you don't choose them; they come up or they don't. They change or they don't. And then thought labels them with an "I" and BOOM! you imagine you have changed your emotions. This is just thought taking credit for the change. LOOK!
Did the change of emotion happen before or after the thought "i want to feel something different". Did you really decide? Pay attention!!! Look at how your thoughts and emotions arise. YOU have nothing to do with their appearance, but you are taking credit for them. How weird is that!?
Life changes. Happy/sad is all the same to life; they are just emotions. To Life, they have no special meaning; they are just feelings. In life, emotions change. Happy/not-happy/happy/not-happy — there is nothing that the emotions cling to without self. They simply ARE.
Check it!! Pay attention to your emotions. What is true??

[Susie]

Now mind, uncomfortable at losing 'self', is suggesting that there is something 'wrong'!
Yes, you are right about mind being uncomfortable at losing self. Well that is just too bad. :)
Yes, no one setting anything up, no director, no one in charge. It is just happening like breathing, like the wind.

Where is this "I" that can choose what to think?? Where? POINT to this "I" with your finger and tell me what you see! LOOK! This is just thought taking credit for the change.
LOOK! Do you see a god that set life up?? When you observe with your eyes that life is simply going on with no director, do you really think a god is needed to keep life going?? LOOK and See!! No god; no director; life is living itself just fine. THIS is how it is; everything is simply happening. No cause/effect, no one in charge.
You're right. There is no I. There is no I that can be pointed to. No there is nothing needed to keep life going. All there is ....... is what there is at the moment. Ah awareness.