The Gate

How has this been the last days? Dit you sens a difference in the way you looked around you the past days? In what way?

There have been definitely more moments of clear looking, just experiencing; more peace, more “good” feelings

Yes, but is what does it tell you? Can you the next time tension comes up take a close look at what the reason for the tension is and what the thing is what it is telling you. Something is giving tension. Its there with a reason. It might wants to tell you something and it can be helpful if you name it, for our investigation.

Ok, there is tension. In DE there just sensing/ feeling. It is OK and welcome with clarity/ clear looking.
There is also thinking E
There are also many thoughts that are not supportive. I do not believe in them when I question them. No doubt that they are not true. There is conditioning too. There are thoughts saying that this tension is a result of long sitting at the computer and also some other stressful thoughts; thoughts that reoccur and comment negatively on what “I” try to do; all the "story world". There is this critic/ those thoughts that seem to run in the background and be related to sensations/ feelings. There are thoughts saying they I will never liberate myself.

Check! {thoughts}

There is thinking. Yes, there are thoughts coming and going. None of them are good or bad, better or worse in DE. There are no more or less important that sensations. Thoughts name thoughts good or bad. Thoughts compare and judge. While noticing them/ looking clearly, they stop or slow down . When conditioning happens, there seem to be a lot of them. These are concepts though.
When seeing/ looking clearly, thoughts interpreting thoughts are ‘supportive, positive, and helpful.” Yes. When caught in conditioning, under pressure, when doing something “important” , there are more “negative” thoughts, tension, sensations. These are all concepts though.

No, thats a misunderstanding, ime sorry if you got that feeling!, you absolutely welcome to share whatever comes up, its all part of the proces!

Thank you again for clarifying it! I did not get this belief from you; I made an assumption based on my previous experience. I do appreciate you being open to listen to what comes out sometimes. I do believe it can be very very helpful in seeing deeper through illusion.

Could you tell some more about this sadness? How di dit come, what made them come and what were your responses to it.

I am making a story about that sadness now, of course. It might have come with getting caught into a belief that I am going through the LU process again, after practicing other things before to liberate myself, and it will help to see through for a moment, to then fall again into conditioning and illusion. A story.

Could you tell me about your feelings in the past weeks while we are in this process. Do you sens changes on some level, or what is being noticed. You have had a guiding before, do you feel there are things shifting now what haven't been before?

There was a feeling of joy when we started, when I read your first post/ questions; as if some memory had come back, as if seeing clearly had just come back at that moment. Overall, there is much more clarity, peace, joy, welcoming of whatever comes comparing to time of being caught into illusion. The time of being caught into conditioning seems to be also shorter; seeing comes naturally.
I do not remember exactly how it was, the first time I was guided on LU; I remember feeling frustrated a lot, probably less willing to see or less open. A shift happened after I stopped using LU. It was clear seeing. Then conditioning again.

Hi JustBe!
There is a smile coming reading your post. Good to read what is going on.

There have been definitely more moments of clear looking, just experiencing; more peace, more “good” feelings

Good to hear. Where do those good feelings come from?, in what way are they “good”?, what do they look like?, how do they manifest? Can you discribe if they come along?

There is also thinking E
There are also many thoughts that are not supportive. I do not believe in them when I question them. No doubt that they are not true. There is conditioning too. There are thoughts saying that this tension is a result of long sitting at the computer and also some other stressful thoughts; thoughts that reoccur and comment negatively on what “I” try to do; all the "story world". There is this critic/ those thoughts that seem to run in the background and be related to sensations/ feelings. There are thoughts saying they I will never liberate myself.

There is thinking. Yes, there are thoughts coming and going. None of them are good or bad, better or worse in DE. There are no more or less important that sensations. Thoughts name thoughts good or bad. Thoughts compare and judge. While noticing them/ looking clearly, they stop or slow down . When conditioning happens, there seem to be a lot of them. These are concepts though.
When seeing/ looking clearly, thoughts interpreting thoughts are ‘supportive, positive, and helpful.” Yes. When caught in conditioning, under pressure, when doing something “important” , there are more “negative” thoughts, tension, sensations. These are all concepts though. Nice looking!

Good to see the way thoughts are looked at. They come and go and some are supportive and others are not. Some are to believed, some not. It looks as if you trust to know what are thougths to take serious.
If you notice thoughts coming what are seeming to take you of track, please name them. So we can have a good look at them!

Thank you again for clarifying it! I did not get this belief from you; I made an assumption based on my previous experience. I do appreciate you being open to listen to what comes out sometimes. I do believe it can be very very helpful in seeing deeper through illusion.
Could you tell some more about this sadness? How di dit come, what made them come and what were your responses to it.

Were on the same track now!

I am making a story about that sadness now, of course. It might have come with getting caught into a belief that I am going through the LU process again, after practicing other things before to liberate myself, and it will help to see through for a moment, to then fall again into conditioning and illusion. A story.

Thank you for trying to look into this. Next time sadness comes up, please try to sit with it for a bit, and try and see what it actually is and what it is telling you. Please report back what you see!

There was a feeling of joy when we started, when I read your first post/ questions; as if some memory had come back, as if seeing clearly had just come back at that moment. Overall, there is much more clarity, peace, joy, welcoming of whatever comes comparing to time of being caught into illusion. The time of being caught into conditioning seems to be also shorter; seeing comes naturally.
I do not remember exactly how it was, the first time I was guided on LU; I remember feeling frustrated a lot, probably less willing to see or less open. A shift happened after I stopped using LU. It was clear seeing. Then conditioning again.

To me it looks as if you are really close, standing in the doorway. I do wish to take the inquiry a little deeper, to make you feel more secure. Until you feel so certain not to believe in a I any more, as much as you are certain you don’t believe in a father Christmas!
I am interested to hear some more about the "conditioning" you mention several of times. Can you see if a situation of conditioning comes by in the coming day, if you can sit with this and describe in detail what you see is happening?

Can you tell me if there are any hung ups you would like to look into?

Love Lunamaya

Thank you Lunamaya! I will respond tomorrow afternoon. I am just not at home today. I read your reply though, and I am contemplating on it.
Much love.

Where do those good feelings come from?, in what way are they “good”?, what do they look like?, how do they manifest? Can you discribe if they come along?

Hmm and a smile. In DE, there is no place that can be identified that those feelings come from. They are neither good nor bad in DE. It cannot be said how they look like. Only thoughts distinguish between bad and good feelings/ pleasant and unpleasant. Feelings manifest as thoughts and sensations. They come and go. Feeling, sensing… constantly changing. When there is no clear seeing, when there is an “I” illusion, there are thoughts, there are stories, there is suffering.

[quoteIf you notice thoughts coming what are seeming to take you of track, please name them. So we can have a good look at them! ][/quote]

Here is an example of thoughts helping to get off track:
They (my granddaughters) are going to get sick; and you cannot do anything about it. You should be able to do something about it. If you were able to better communicate with your son and his wife, they would listen to you…. Etc. There is a lot of sadness going with those thoughts. Yesterday, it took a half day of being with it before it was gone.
Right now, there has been a realization that clear seeing is maybe not about not having those thoughts or feelings. It is about just clearly seeing them, being aware of them, seeing them without judging; accepting even those judgmental thoughts (tears). Getting of track is having this expectation of not having those negative thoughts and feelings; is this habitual mind’s self-distracted talk that seems so real sometimes and it is NOT

Could you tell some more about this sadness? How di dit come, what made them come and what were your responses to it.

Just to add to the above story about sadness, what was different this time, there was a conscious effort to just be with it. Before, there was more judgment, more irritation that it came again, more being caught in that illusion of “poor me”, etc. This time there was just seeing all of it with the awareness that it would pass, that that was not real…

To me it looks as if you are really close, standing in the doorway. I do wish to take the inquiry a little deeper, to make you feel more secure. Until you feel so certain not to believe in a I any more, as much as you are certain you don’t believe in a father Christmas!
I am interested to hear some more about the "conditioning" you mention several of times. Can you see if a situation of conditioning comes by in the coming day, if you can sit with this and describe in detail what you see is happening

Yes, it feels like oscillating between truth and illusion. There is some fear of completely letting it go; maybe the way to deal with it is to just see it too; just to be with it, accepting all thoughts, judgments, and beliefs going with it.
It also feels like a habit of getting into that familiar misery; strong habit. Thoughts and stories make it of course strong or whatever...
A part of "me" wants to believe in Santa Clause; longing some magic and wisdom going with it and with some other fairy-tales. Ha! Ha!

Conditioning to me is getting caught into "I" illusion; it's like forgetting to see clearly, forgetting the truth. maybe the story about sadness is a good example.

Much love,
JustBe

Hello JustBe!

Thank you, lovely to read your post.
Ime going to pick a couple of things out of it, if I miss anything you find importand, please dont hasitate bringing it to my attention!

Hmm and a smile. In DE, there is no place that can be identified that those feelings come from. They are neither good nor bad in DE. It cannot be said how they look like. Only thoughts distinguish between bad and good feelings/ pleasant and unpleasant. Feelings manifest as thoughts and sensations. They come and go. Feeling, sensing… constantly changing. When there is no clear seeing, when there is an “I” illusion, there are thoughts, there are stories, there is suffering.

Yes

Here is an example of thoughts helping to get off track:
They (my granddaughters) are going to get sick; and you cannot do anything about it. You should be able to do something about it. If you were able to better communicate with your son and his wife, they would listen to you…. Etc. There is a lot of sadness going with those thoughts. Yesterday, it took a half day of being with it before it was gone.
Right now, there has been a realization that clear seeing is maybe not about not having those thoughts or feelings. It is about just clearly seeing them, being aware of them, seeing them without judging; accepting even those judgmental thoughts (tears).

Your doing a really good job looking at these pointers.
But JustBe, who is judging who? Who is not judging, is there a judger somewhere, can you find this judge inside you, outside you? Please have a good look!

Is there a I who can change all this? Is there a You who can control? Changing happens (or not) there is no I involved!

So in one hand it just happens. Thoughts come, emotions come, judging comes.Sometimes they result in a change. Than that is how it is. Not good, not bad, just the way it is. Sometimes it stays the way it is. Not good, not bad, just the way it is. So if changing happens, it happens. If it doesnt happen, it doesnt. Its all just the way it goes. Its the stream were in. All of us. There is no I involved, just all streaming like a river!

Getting of track is having this expectation of not having those negative thoughts and feelings; is this habitual mind’s self-distracted talk that seems so real sometimes and it is NOT

Right, good you see this!

This time there was just seeing all of it with the awareness that it would pass, that that was not real…

So you mean "just being aware made it", less judgmental, less irritations and less caught in illusion and pore me?

Yes, it feels like oscillating between truth and illusion. There is some fear of completely letting it go;

What is this fear? What are you afraid of that will happen if the story is not believed any more?

Conditioning to me is getting caught into "I" illusion; it's like forgetting to see clearly, forgetting the truth. maybe the story about sadness is a good example.

[/quote]Thank you, I understand what you mean now.

Your doing hard work and lovely to see how you are looking!
Ime looking forwards reading from you,

Love Lunamaya

Your doing a really good job looking at these pointers.
But JustBe, who is judging who? Who is not judging, is there a judger somewhere, can you find this judge inside you, outside you? Please have a good look!

Is there a I who can change all this? Is there a You who can control? Changing happens (or not) there is no I involved!

Thoughts are judging thoughts; there are thoughts commenting on thoughts. There is no judger/judge that can be found neither inside nor outside;
There is no “I” that can change all of this. There is no “I”/”You” who can control. Yes, changing happens with no “I” involved to be found.

So in one hand it just happens. Thoughts come, emotions come, judging comes.Sometimes they result in a change. Than that is how it is. Not good, not bad, just the way it is. Sometimes it stays the way it is. Not good, not bad, just the way it is. So if changing happens, it happens. If it doesnt happen, it doesnt. Its all just the way it goes. Its the stream were in. All of us. There is no I involved, just all streaming like a river!

Yes, deeply agreed. How to permanently then get beyond that habitual “I” involved mind illusion. How to get ready for that? What does it involve? Obviously seeing clearly is not enough since the illusion keeps coming back. Is it just about remembering to see/ practicing remembering until it becomes natural, the way getting caught into the “I” illusion happens

So you mean "just being aware made it", less judgmental, less irritations and less caught in illusion and pore me?

Cannot say if “just being aware” made “less” of anything. It seems that “being aware” allows things to pass/ or they just pass (there is nobody allowing); it seems that not being aware may mean being caught in some suffering that can last for a long time.

What is this fear? What are you afraid of that will happen if the story is not believed any more?

This is some irrational fear. There is nothing to be afraid, no doubt; and still, there is this deep fear of letting go; there are of course thoughts commenting on what can happen and there are sensations. So these are just thoughts saying there is something to be afraid of/ thoughts commenting on the body sensations that they are unpleasant/ or that they mean fear?
A memory came to mind about an old experience from some group event when I had to leg go and fall back with my eyes closed on people's hands that were clasped together. I took me a long time to finally do that even though I logically knew it was completely safe. It was very liberating to do that though!

Hi JustBe,

How to permanently then get beyond that habitual “I” involved mind illusion.

What is permanently? Can you take a good look at this? What is it you see?

How to get ready for that?

How can you get ready? Is there anything else then readiness? (Or no readiness).

What does it involve?

It involves no more then what is happening now, you are already there, in the middle of it!
If "you" keep LOOKING at what "is" right HERE right NOW, what more do you need?

Obviously seeing clearly is not enough since the illusion keeps coming back.

How do you know the illusion keeps coming back? Where can you see that? What is promising you anything? What is it what is there?
I understand this has to do with old memories? But it is story that this will happen again isn't it? Maybe it wasnt the time yet before?! Can we do anything els than follow the stream and see what comes along? Can we make it different? Is there any control over that?

Is it just about remembering to see/ practicing remembering until it becomes natural, the way getting caught into the “I” illusion happens

I cant speak for others. But since LU for me, there has been a thrive in further looking and investigating, almost all steps I walk. But its different for everybody. There are also some really helpful groups, based on the principals from LU, like the LU aftercare group. And guiding is a excellent way of keeping the looking going and further investigation! :)
for me, I enjoy talking with people who also saw thru the illusion. And yes, it gets more normal and old patterns take time to let go... and some are really sticky but there are several of ways to deal with them when time comes ;)

What is this fear? What are you afraid of that will happen if the "I" story is not believed any more?

This is some irrational fear. There is nothing to be afraid, no doubt; and still, there is this deep fear of letting go;

If there is fear of letting go, what is it you think you have to let go? If there is no I, how can it hold on to anything? Please have a really good look again. Is there anything to hold on to? and what is holding on to it?

A memory came to mind about an old experience from some group event when I had to leg go and fall back with my eyes closed on people's hands that were clasped together. I took me a long time to finally do that even though I logically knew it was completely safe. It was very liberating to do that though!

So if there is a illusionary I that is being hold on to, what will happen if you let it go? Will anything fall?

Love Lunamaya

Hi Lunamaya, I apologize i didn't respond right away again. I will respond tomorrow morning.
Much Love,
Ella

What is permanently? Can you take a good look at this? What is it you see?

Impermanence. No way to know about anything permanent. There is only now. “Permanently” is a word/ thought/ concept….

How can you get ready? Is there anything else then readiness? (Or no readiness) If "you" keep LOOKING at what "is" right HERE right NOW, what more do you need?.

Just looking; just seeing; just experiencing…Nothing is needed

How do you know the illusion keeps coming back? Where can you see that? What is promising you anything? What is it what is there?
I understand this has to do with old memories? But it is story that this will happen again isn't it? Maybe it wasnt the time yet before?! Can we do anything els than follow the stream and see what comes along? Can we make it different? Is there any control over that?

Yes, stories, stories, memories…thoughts commenting about thoughts. Nothing is promising anything. Nothing there… Experiencing here. Just seeing clearly. Nothing can be made different. No control over anything. Ha! Ha!

I cant speak for others. But since LU for me, there has been a thrive in further looking and investigating, almost all steps I walk. ...

Thank you for sharing your experience with me!

If there is fear of letting go, what is it you think you have to let go? If there is no I, how can it hold on to anything? Please have a really good look again. Is there anything to hold on to? and what is holding on to it?

Letting go of stories, thoughts, thoughts about thoughts… There is even nobody who can hold on those stories. There is nobody holding on those stories. There are just thoughts about what can happen…more thoughts about thoughts. Ha! Ha!

So if there is a illusionary I that is being hold on to, what will happen if you let it go? Will anything fall?

There are concepts about what will happen; just thoughts saying that there will be no illusion…no ”I” illusion. Stories. There is just seeing now, experiencing, thinking. All is fine

Great, lovely to read!

Please take some time to let all settle in. You can post in a couple of days or when you feel ready, to Let me know what it is you see. How does this effect daily Life? What do you see happening in daily Life, trust, struggles, hungups etc. Whatever comes up.

Enjoy! Love lunamaya

Thank you Lunamaya! And yes, I will write in a couple of days. Feeling so much gratitude for looking with you!
Much love,
JustBe

Hi JustBe,

I hope your doing good!

It would be lovely to hear from you one of these days. See how you have been and if there is any things you would like to have a close look at.

Sending Love!

Lunamaya

How funny! I opened the LU website to write to you, and I found your note to me, before I got any notification about your response.
As you suggested, I took a couple of days, to let all settle in. There is peace, acceptance, trust; there is no struggle in a daily life… There are thinking patterns easier noticeable and also much quicker going away… There are thoughts that reoccur; there is nobody to believe them right now.
So much gratitude for you walking this path with me! May we still stay in touch; at least for a while? I would like to work on a “good maintenance plan” (smile). May I have, please, some support developing a practice to remember to see (Ha! Ha!)? There is such a deep desire to keep going; to go deeper whatever it means. You shared with me some things that you do. What do you suggest I can do? I apologize for the “I” language. I hope it’s OK.

With much love,
JustBe

Hi JustBe,

Thank you for your lovely reply! Its a privilege to have walked this path with you!

Sure, we can keep in touch! And ill be around!!! :)

If its okay with you, id like to ask you some standard questions, and let some other guides have a look at the process, to see if there are any questions left.

Okay?

Love Lunamaya

Yes, of course it is OK. Thank you! I am looking forward to hearing from you!
Love,

JustBe