Wanted: direct experience

[moomon]

How is this experienced ? What are the mechanisms ?

Some experiences illicit stronger sensations; the stories around them come faster, and, mind's reaction is more immediate--less planned-out. I catch myself more now, however. Today for example, I completely obliterated an intense rush of anger by asking myself, "who is feeling this anger?" and, "Who does this emotion serve?"The examination made the sensation go away! Once it went away, I couldn't remember what the heck I was even mad about. It was kind-of amazing.

[moomon]

How is this experienced ? What are the mechanisms ?

Some experiences illicit stronger sensations; the stories around them come faster, and, mind's reaction is more immediate--less planned-out. I catch myself more now, however. Today for example, I completely obliterated an intense rush of anger by asking myself, "who is feeling this anger?" and, "Who does this emotion serve?"The examination made the sensation go away! Once it went away, I couldn't remember what the heck I was even mad about. It was kind-of amazing.

[moomon]

Does this mean that you express emotions easily ? ..or intensely ? ..or something else ?

It depends on the emotion, I suppose. I am a passionate person, so I express what I feel based on the intensity that "I" am experiencing. Anything less would be dishonest.

Does this mean that great effort is needed ?

[moomon]

Does this mean that great effort is needed ?

Honestly, it depends on the situation. I admit, I am not good at keeping my mouth shut if I feel passionately about something, usually in the defense of others. Obviously, being stubborn or an idealist is not conducive to enlightenment! It's a work in progress that I expect comes with wisdom and maturity. However, "I" seems to know how to pick it's battles. I speak when I believe words are helpful, relevant, or necessary, and am silent in most other things. The "I" finds little need to be involved in most interactions.

I know all this translates to standing further from the gate, but some conditioning patterns are stronger than others, born of hard times. True for many, I would imagine.

Thank goodness you are here! How did you get through the strongest patterns of your conditioning?

Good night Vince,

Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

I admit, I am not good at keeping my mouth shut if I feel passionately about something, usually in the defense of others. Obviously, being stubborn or an idealist

This sounds as though you have really clear ideas about who you are ? Is this so ?

...is not conducive to enlightenment!

Oh, so you know how it's supposed to be ?
If i told you that there is no stereotype as everybody is unique, what do you hope for with your awakening ? (besides being less stubborn and less idealistic)

The "I" finds little need to be involved in most interactions.

Tell me more about this "I" ?

I know all this translates to standing further from the gate,

No you don't.
The gate exists in a dimension where distance doesn't exist. (grin)

some conditioning patterns are stronger than others

Yes. Do you know the neurons that fire together, wire together. So the strong ones are the ones that get a lot of repetition.
Did you know that there is a hormone (i think it's a hormone) that activates forgetting. Some deep conditioning can drop instantly. Some needs practice.

How did you get through the strongest patterns of your conditioning?

It was easy, once i saw that the value (for change) is in the recognizing that i was acting out that conditioning.
The moment the thought arises, that i was lost in a story, in that instant, i wake up. It's simply impossible to be lost in a story, and be aware that you are lost, at the same time.

love

vince

[moomon]

This sounds as though you have really clear ideas about who you are ? Is this so ?

I've had a lifetime to familiarize the self with self. So yes, I suppose you could say I have clear ideas about the concept associated with the "I". I just never really bought into the idea that it was real. Never! I really started looking at this at about 12 years.

[moomon]

Oh, so you know how it's supposed to be ?

Based on everything I've read about the subject, ego is part of consciousness, and the dissolution of will is an indication of developing of consciousness. So, no, I don't "know how it is supposed to be", I only know what others have conveyed, which includes a softening of strong opinions and/or reactions. I don't know anything. Why else would "I" be here?


If i told you that there is no stereotype as everybody is unique, what do you hope for with your awakening ? (besides being less stubborn and less idealistic)

I can't say I really have any big impressive hopes in regard to awakening. I don't want to rule the universe or sprout wings or anything. I just want to know what is true. It's a compulsive need to know that I haven't been able to shake and it only seems to get stronger the older I get. "I" don't feel I can get on with the theater of life until I know what's behind the curtain, and frankly, I'm sick of trying. I hope that if I just could experience what's real I could function more easily in an ecosystem full of nothing but that which is so obviously and overwhelmingly "not".

[moomon]

Tell me more about this "I" ?

Why do we have to talk about it when it isn't real?? There isn't anything interesting to tell....Just the "thing" that my mind identifies as it's own; an amalgamation of schemas, memories, concepts. It's all there, just like with everybody else who still has "I" tagging along...Just another self..Not sure what you are looking for here.

[moomon]

No you don't.
The gate exists in a dimension where distance doesn't exist. (grin)

Are you suggesting there are other dimensions?

By "distance", I didn't mean physical distance. I'm assuming you knew that but I'll say it anyway. What a relief if you are correct! I hope that's true; that my stubborness and deep-seated conditioning won't make this all harder.

Yes. Do you know the neurons that fire together, wire together. So the strong ones are the ones that get a lot of repetition.

So that's why shopping keeps happening!

Did you know that there is a hormone (i think it's a hormone) that activates forgetting. Some deep conditioning can drop instantly. Some needs practice.

Actually, memory is the result of brain physiology and function, however, hormonal, chemical, and nutritional changes can affect it's ability to work (sorry, psych major!). For example, I have Lyme Disease, Bartonella, and a B12 deficiency which translates to not being able to remember diddly'. While this can really mess up the day on occasion, it can also be a divine lesson in realizing very little matters....

Some deep conditioning can drop instantly. Some needs practice.

This sounds like purposeful behavioral modification rather than direct experience.Is it a combination of the two? Is will involved?

It was easy, once i saw that the value (for change) is in the recognizing that i was acting out that conditioning. The moment the thought arises, that i was lost in a story, in that instant, i wake up. It's simply impossible to be lost in a story, and be aware that you are lost, at the same time.

Even when I get "lost in a story" and then realize what's happening, the emotions rarely just poof! disappear. Recognition of the situation doesn't magically eradicate emotion or remove me from the circumstance or conditioning. Sometimes, even when I know without a doubt that I am responding to some conditioning, the way I deal with it or suppress it is by creating a new "story" to change the behavior, if only for that moment. Quite often, the new story is that I'm not going to react to whatever it is because it's just another story; the emotion serves no useful purpose, ect. To me this isn't a solution because the emotion is still really there, it's just been pushed down; the situation still needs to be dealt with, whatever it is still happened, ect. For example: My 6 year old furnace/boiler broke on Friday, leaving me with no hot water. I paid a repairman $400 to fix it. When he left, I still had no hot water and also no heat. It's 30 degrees here at night. That was three days ago. I now have to pay another repairman to "fix" it again or possibly pay thousands to replace the whole system, which is under full warranty that the company will not honor. My response? Despair, extreme stress, and words that are unladylike to utter out loud. I know eventually this situation will be fixed and I will go on with life, however, my "I" emotional reaction will still play itself out until it is done feeling the way it feels. I can (and did) suck it up and accept the situation, but the emotions didn't magically disappear.

Have a good day,

Moo

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

Are you suggesting there are other dimensions?

No, not objective anythings.

I hope that's true; that my stubbornness and deep-seated conditioning won't make this all harder.

No, they can (possibly) make it easier.

Yes. Do you know the neurons that fire together, wire together. So the strong ones are the ones that get a lot of repetition.

So that's why shopping keeps happening!

Perhaps, but i was referring to your comment about deep conditioning.
Describe an example of deep conditioning.

This sounds like purposeful behavioral modification rather than direct experience.

The problem with labels is that we get lost in the concepts, rather than what they point to.

Is will involved?

What is "will" ? Can you describe the process when will is used ?

Even when I get "lost in a story" and then realize what's happening, the emotions rarely just poof! disappear. Recognition of the situation doesn't magically eradicate emotion or remove me from the circumstance or conditioning. Sometimes, even when I know without a doubt that I am responding to some conditioning, the way I deal with it or suppress it is by creating a new "story" to change the behavior, if only for that moment.

Yes, it all hinges on that recognition that you are responding to conditioning.
Could that new story creation happen without being aware that you were lost in conditioning ?

because the emotion is still really there, it's just been pushed down;

Oh, explain how you know this ?

Despair, extreme stress, and words that are unladylike to utter out loud. I know eventually this situation will be fixed and I will go on with life, however, my "I" emotional reaction will still play itself out until it is done feeling the way it feels. I can (and did) suck it up and accept the situation, but the emotions didn't magically disappear.

Now you know that "sucking it up" doesn't work to eradicate those emotions.
It may sound like a silly question, but what is 'wrong' with those emotions ?

Why do we have to talk about it when it isn't real??

Are you clear that it isn't real ?

Not sure what you are looking for here.

Ok, i wasn't looking for anything personal, just how this I works for you. What form does it take. How do you experience it ?

I only know what others have conveyed

No two are the same. Yours will be unique, so please dont' read or listen to those others while we are doing this investigation.

I just want to know what is true.

This is good.
What if i told you that nothing is objectively true ?

love

vince

[moomon]

No, not objective anythings.

What do you mean by this? I know this will be hard to answer, but I never understood how exactly other dimensions are percieved--if they are experienced by mind or something else.

Perhaps, but i was referring to your comment about deep conditioning.
Describe an example of deep conditioning.

And I was being silly...An example of deep conditioning would be the need to win every argument or be "right" in all situations; to think "Cold is bad", when in fact, cold is just cold, neither good nor bad.

The problem with labels is that we get lost in the concepts, rather than what they point to.

Yes, but labels and words can help us see what is being pointed to so that I can "see". What you were describing, using the "pointers" you used, sounds like the purposeful exercise of will or mind, rather than the result of some direct experience. I am just trying to clarify as this confuses me. So, can you clear this up for me without answering my question with another question?

What is "will" ? Can you describe the process when will is used ?

Will is mind's way of purposely acting or thinking in a way that will provide a desirable outcome, as perceived by "I". It's difficult to describe a process that is used as we are talking about this as there are so many non-entities! It's all mind. Mind recognizes a repeating situation or story that it perceives as negative. Mind considers how it can affect it's thinking or circumstances to impact future outcomes in a more desirable way. After utilizing these methods, mind tries to establish if it can then change the after-story in such a way that satisfies it's perception.

So---your saying that "some things just drop away" doesn't sound like an act of will, whereas, your statement that recognizing conditioning is how you change it does sound like actively and willfully participating in that change. You see how that confused me?

Could that new story creation happen without being aware that you were lost in conditioning ?

I can't honestly say I've experienced that, but I'd love to think it's possible. My experience to this point has been becoming aware of past conditioning and making a conscious decision to behave differently or "change" the after-story. The outcome rarely changes as a result, but I usually feel better about myself. It's the "I" that creates these after-stories, so whether or not "I" knows it's lost in conditioning, it's the only one that can create new stories. If "I" doesn't know it's lost in some form of conditioning, what would be the motivation to change the story?

Oh, explain how you know this ?

How do I know the emotions are just being suppressed? Because I don't express them or act on them, but I still feel them--they still run their course until they are exhausted or until I forget what happened altogether.

It may sound like a silly question, but what is 'wrong' with those emotions ?

Not at all! It's a very valid question.There is nothing wrong with the emotions other than they serve no purpose and can be unhealthy to the body over time. Emotions are a natural thing. They are part of the "I". The good ones are actually good for the body and the immune system....

Are you clear that it isn't real ?[/quote]

Yes. I haven't experienced that, but I am very much aware intellectually. Dude, that's why I'm here!

Ok, i wasn't looking for anything personal, just how this I works for you. What form does it take. How do you experience it ?

Yeah, I understand. Just a hard question to answer. don't know how it works for me, other than in the normal human ways. It take the form of a human...um..I experience it--geesh, I have no clue what you are looking for here, I'm sorry.
Do you want me to describe, "myself" as the "I" perceives itself based on the usual societal constructs? Help me out so I can give you the info you were looking for!

What if i told you that nothing is objectively true ?[/quote]

I'd say I've heard that one before, and spent a good deal of time pondering it; truth, like everything else is never constant so what seems "real" in one moment, in one aspect, is not true in another, including what we perceived as the moment itself, and since all is perceived differently by everything that perceives, there is no real way to determine one truth. However, I think you understand what I meant by that; I want to see clearly through all that isn't "true" or permanent to that which is eternal, unchanging, and outside that which we create, perceive, and interpret with just our little "I" minds and within our little "I" world.

It's always so nice talking with you. If I haven't said it before, thank you for being here, Vince.

Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

What do you mean by this? I know this will be hard to answer, but I never understood how exactly other dimensions are perceived--if they are experienced by mind or something else.

Ok, let's explore.
Have you ever experienced another dimension ?
Is a 'dimension' a label for something ?
If we take it literally, the word means a measurement. So in a literal sense we are talking about something that is different to the measurements of space and time.
At a more pragmatic level, it is the perception that reveals something not ordinarily seen.

An example of deep conditioning would be the need to win every argument or be "right" in all situations;

Would you say that this is one of the characteristics of the main actor in the story of Su ?
Can you see that there is a whole book, with many chapters about this character ?
Can you see that like any stage show, it takes much rehearsal to stay in character ?
Where is this character when you are in deep dreamless sleep ?
Do you wake up reading the script ?

Yes, but labels and words can help us see what is being pointed to so that I can "see".

Yes, absolutely. We cannot communicate without concepts. Neither can we describe anything.
Do you think that it is possible to use concepts without taking their content as reality ? To know that they always ABOUT something, and never the actual ?

sounds like the purposeful exercise of will or mind,

This sounds like you have control over what thoughts arise ? Is this true ?

can you clear this up for me without answering my question with another question?

Ha, i need you to discover these things for yourself. When you did the looking exercise, did you recognize the difference between what was seen and the concepts use to describe it ?
If you now think of a white unicorn, you experience the thought (concept) but the content of the thought (an image) isn't actual. Do you get that the content is the carrier. The carrier is experienced. The content is imagined.
The crux of this whole investigation, is to discern the difference between what is actual and what is concept.
It seems to me that you recognize that there is a difference between a sense of self, and an actual self. Is this so ?

It's all mind. Mind recognizes a repeating situation or story that it perceives as negative. Mind considers how it can affect it's thinking or circumstances to impact future outcomes in a more desirable way. After utilizing these methods, mind tries to establish if it can then change the after-story in such a way that satisfies it's perception.

Yes, this is all pretty accurate. Now tell me if "mind" is more than a label to describe the arrival and disappearance of thoughts ?
Do you think that mind is an entity ? (No, you've already said that it is a result of brain function)

does sound like actively and willfully participating in that change.

Under what conditions would intention arise ?
If willingness to participate is present, did this happen because of many conditions ? ..and lots of those conditions were (apparently) external to you ?

My experience to this point has been becoming aware of past conditioning and making a conscious decision to behave differently or "change" the after-story. The outcome rarely changes as a result

Yes, this puts paid to the idea of will power, doesn't it ?

It's the "I" that creates these after-stories,

No, they arrive. Who knows from where. Do you have more than a thought conclusion that it's the I that does this ? (any experience of that I ?)

what would be the motivation to change the story?

Unpleasant emotion.

but I still feel them

Yes. Are they are different at this point ? ..somewhat subdued ?

Yes. I haven't experienced that, but I am very much aware intellectually.

You experience the intellectual recognition, so what are you expecting when you say that you haven't experienced that yet ?

Help me out so I can give you the info you were looking for!

i want you to say that you recognize that the I is a script that you have (somewhat) blindly acted out, and now that you have seen the reality of this you now have a choice (apparently) to change the script.

However, I think you understand what I meant by that;

Yes, i did. ..and i love what you say about truth. So let's not use that word (for a while). Lets talk about what is actual instead.

I want to see clearly through all that isn't "true" or permanent to that which is eternal, unchanging, and outside that which we create, perceive, and interpret with just our little "I" minds and within our little "I" world.

i'd love to give you such an experience, but...
What i can show you is the actual nature of the world (yourself)

It's always so nice talking with you. If I haven't said it before, thank you for being here, Vince.

You're welcome. There is much benefit for me in doing this. The more 'difficult' that you are, the deeper i have to dig. Good stuff.
Perhaps when your turn comes, you too will pay it forward. (i intuit that you will be a good guide)

love

vince

[moomon]

Hi Vince,

Have you ever experienced another dimension ?
Is a 'dimension' a label for something ?
If we take it literally, the word means a measurement. So in a literal sense we are talking about something that is different to the measurements of space and time.
At a more pragmatic level, it is the perception that reveals something not ordinarily seen.

I don't believe I've ever experienced another dimension. Yes, dimension is a label for something. Everything we experience has a label attached to it. I appreciate the definition but...Have you ever experienced another dimension? Can you tell me what you experienced?

Would you say that this is one of the characteristics of the main actor in the story of Su ?
Can you see that there is a whole book, with many chapters about this character ?
Can you see that like any stage show, it takes much rehearsal to stay in character ?
Where is this character when you are in deep dreamless sleep ?
Do you wake up reading the script ?

No, I don't always have to be right and I don't fight to be characterized as such. I do recognize that I have a few chapters at my age and it takes effort if not rehearsal to stay in character. I avoid that work; don't like it! I avoid interacting with others whenever possible to avoid all that nonsense.

When I am in rem sleep there is no need for the character. Sometimes I do wake up reading the script; I am often very aware of that moment when the "no me" turns into the "me" upon awakening. I like to play with the idea and ask self when that moment happened, you know, like the old adage about the exact moment a cucumber becomes a pickle.*smile*.

Do you think that it is possible to use concepts without taking their content as reality ? To know that they always ABOUT something, and never the actual ?

Of course. In the "enlightenment" business it is critical to do so. Words can only serve as pointers, as you said. However, it's tricky to remember this aspect of communicating when you are navigating the unknown. Sometimes there is the knee-jerk reaction of trying to take the words literally because what they point to is, well, invisible.

This sounds like you have control over what thoughts arise ? Is this true ?

The parrot answer is no, Vince. We have no control over our thoughts. We cannot stop them midstream, even when we try. However, I argue the point that "I" often produce and control daydreams, organize thoughts, ect. I can't grasp the concept that while thoughts certainly arise from seemingly nowhere, that "I" don't have control over creating a few of my own, or directing them toward more desirable outcomes when "I" choose. Fear arises out of nowhere, but I can "talk myself courageous" when I have to. I struggle a bit with this, probably because some part of me still identifies with the "I". *sigh*.

Okay--the rest of this discussion requires a little more "effort" on my part so I'm going to work on it more tomorrow. My illness makes thought happen a bit more slowly than it used to, so it helps me to break things up a bit. You have given me a lot to work on, which means you get a break from me for now:-)

I feel I have a long way to go now, but maybe with you by my side I just may get there. Thanks, Vince.

Moomon

[moomon]

I thought you might enjoy my internal struggle today; I failed miserably, but I did make myself laugh at "me". So, here is how my self-talk went this afternoon, on this my first day of a diet meant to last until Christmas:

I want a cookie.
Who wants the cookie?
Hmm. I? No, wait. the body. The body is hungry and is craving sugar, so it's the body.
So no part of I is telling you that it wants the cookie?
No. I doesn't care what it eats. It doesn't exist so it doesn't eat. I wants to be on the diet but the body wants sugar.
There is no "I", so I can't be the one who wants the cookie.
Is "I" telling itself this?
Damn. Don't know. It's just thought. Thinking just happens.
Is the body telling you to choose to eat the cookie? Can the body talk to "I"? If not, who is the body talking to?
No, the body is telling me to eat something.It's sending a signal to my brain to find sugar.
(buying the cookie)
Mmmm. Really good cookie.
Aha! That was the "I"! The "I" made a judgement about the cookie so it must be the "I" that "chose" to eat the wrong thing! Right?
No. There is no "I", so it can't be the "I's" fault.
So....It's the mind? The body? Who is to blame for this fall from grace?
No one is to blame for the eaten cookie. Cookie eating just happens.

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

Have you ever experienced another dimension?

If you ask me if i am enlightened, i would have to ask you for a definition of it. Most likely your label (concept) wouldn't fit my experience. It is the same with your question about dimensions.
I would say that i don't experience the (apparent) world as (most) others do. ..and even among those who are awake, every experience is unique. (although there are some similarities)

Can you tell me what you experienced?

Probably not. Language doesn't have words to express the subtleties. ..and besides, to do that would (likely) have you looking for similar experiences. That would hijack your investigation.

The parrot answer is no, Vince. We have no control over our thoughts. We cannot stop them midstream, even when we try.

Is this your actual experience ?

Sometimes there is the knee-jerk reaction of trying to take the words literally because what they point to is, well, invisible.

Yes, exactly. The mind (thought streams) seem to (be conditioned to - my story) want to evoke satisfaction sensation (in the body) by explaining everything. Maybe it's a confirmation bias that we constantly seek from outside to feel ok. (the constant search for good feelings)

the rest of this discussion requires a little more "effort" on my part so I'm going to work on it more tomorrow.

No worries. Shorter posts can be good. i tend to want to address everything that you bring up.

I feel I have a long way to go now, but maybe with you by my side I just may get there.

i have good feelings about you. The only way (most likely) that you won't 'get it', is if you quit.

Thanks, Vince.

Thank you Su, not only is it enjoyable, but you give me the opportunity to.. to deepen. (i can't actually explain it) Maybe something to do with compassion.
i see you as a part of myself that i have just started to explore.
You will come to know what i mean. (be patient)

Now to your cookie experience..

I failed miserably,

i do know what you mean, but the concept of failure depends on the concept of success. ..and both those concepts depend on concepts of decision, control and will power.
Drop the morality. (another concept) It is bullshit, that can only lead to suffering.
Think of consequences instead.

Cookie eating just happens.

Yes it does. (how do we get to where this is more than just words ?)

The body is hungry and is craving sugar,

Exactly. We (i have a sugar addiction too) teach the body to look for a sugar hit about every hour and a half, by the breakfast/morning tea/lunch/afternoon tea/dinner/evening snack routine.
i have been training my body to use fat instead of demanding a quick fix from sugar. i do this by not eating until 2pm most days. (i just finished a 3 day fast, which i do once a month - much easier than most people imagine)
Most diets are doomed to fail (that concept again) It has to be a lifestyle change. Use a smaller plate.

love and compassion

vince