Presence

[yuvi]

Hi Olivia, don't think as it won't yield anything. Work on my other questions and write to me when you are free. No rush :)
Till 16th, I may come online infrequently due to work related travel.

[lavilavica]

Hi Yuvi,
Again problems with the internet, yesterday it was gone all day. And yes, I feel a little bit in rush wanting to finally see and make ''my'' life better.

1. Is there someone that ‘controls’ thoughts?

I wanted to tell you something before answering the questions - I've become aware of what DE really means, and I realized that it is not a new discovery, I have had these experiences from always as I have them now. When I am focused, and into something, afterwards I realize that there wasn't any sensation of 'me' there while the experiences lasted, it is only when a thought comes to elaborate, that a sense of 'me' experiencing things comes back. When I listen to something there is no 'me' but listening, or whatever it is that I am into. Yesterday I was watching tv and listening to what has been said with attention because the topic interested me (on decision making) and after it, I realised that ''me'' was completely absorbed, absent for the time the attention lasted. there was only listening, seeing, thinking, no thought of ''me'' there. Sometimes even when I am into doing something, it consumes all the attention, I don't hear a bell or a phone ringing, and I realize that there is an action going on without a thought of ''me'' as doer or thinker. Ok, I hope you'll get what I am trying to explain.
Answers now:

1. Is there someone that ‘controls’ thoughts?

No, from these experiences I wrote to you about, it is clear that thinking is going on by itself, it is only when we try to rethink of a thought or describe it that a ''thinker'' comes in.

2. Can a thought be started or stopped? If so, what is that which can do that? Explain that ‘entity’ from DE.

If there is no controller or thinker, no, a thought can't be started or stopped, it goes by itself. It is the illusion that the ego thinking creates. And when it gives a sensation that there is an entity that it is in control of thinking and of all of the rest, when looked there is only the brain activity, no little chairman inside the brain. No, have no idea what is there, nothing, dense, thick emptiness.

3. Is there an "I" that resides somewhere in the head or the body?

I answered this by answering the previous one - sensation that it is there inside the body but when looked there is only organism functioning by itself, without owner.

4. Where do "you" exist?

Nowhere. Sensation that there is ''I'' in this body, when looked no idea, awareness existing, receiving sensations from the senses.
Hope hearing from you soon, take care

[yuvi]

Hi Olivia, ill write to you tomorrow

[yuvi]

Hi Olivia,

I realize that there is an action going on without a thought of ''me'' as doer or thinker

this is a spot on response, I'm glad! “I” comes into experience only as an ‘afterthought’. "I" is never NOW. "I" exist only in thoughts - in past or future. In fact, even to call ‘action going on’ is still an ‘after thought’ because there is no way experience can ‘know’ about that there was an action!

organism functioning by itself,

What identifies with the concept ‘organism’?
Even after seeing that ‘me’ is just a thought, the ‘thinking’ mechanism continue to identify to one or many parts of the experience to create a division - a reference point to experiences. E.g. thought will say that 'I' exist here, this sensation behind eyes, that's 'me'. When you really look, there is just a thought + sensation. Nothing else. So when you say, ‘organism’ or ‘body’, I wanted to be clear if there is a reference point to the experience of seeing, hearing, sensing, tasting.

So I want a crystal clear response to this: Is there ‘anything’ or "anyone" or ‘you’ or ‘Olivia’ or ‘body’ or ‘organism’ that is having experiences?

receiving sensations

This is based on a belief that there is something "out" there and an experiencer "in" here with a brain and body and is receiving information.
Apart from perceptions, sensations and thoughts, is there anything "inside" that receives sensations from something "outside"?
If so, what is the DE of "outside" stuff that sends sensations?
What is the DE of "inside" stuff that receives sensations?

[lavilavica]

Hi Yuvi,
I'm glad I received your response, it looks encouraging.

“I” comes into experience only as an ‘afterthought’. "I" is never NOW. "I" exist only in thoughts - in past or future. In fact, even to call ‘action going on’ is still an ‘after thought’ because there is no way experience can ‘know’ about that there was an action!

Yes, it is true, and it totally hits the spot for me realizing that the experience cannot know about itself, without thought involved, the experience is experience - nothing else. I see this crystal clear.

So I want a crystal clear response to this: Is there ‘anything’ or "anyone" or ‘you’ or ‘Olivia’ or ‘body’ or ‘organism’ that is having experiences?

No, when all into experience there are only experiences, that are not identified as such in that moment only afterwards, with no one who is having them - when reviewed in head afterwards it is like ''me'' was the experience. But no, in that very moment of experience there is no any trace of ''me'' having them.

Apart from perceptions, sensations and thoughts, is there anything "inside" that receives sensations from something "outside"?
If so, what is the DE of "outside" stuff that sends sensations?
What is the DE of "inside" stuff that receives sensations?

Indeed, perceptions, sensations and thoughts lead to a feeling that they are received by someone or something residing ''inside'' - in the brain, head, behind the eyes, in some undefined space within. But there is a clear realization (that comes after, so it has to be thought involved otherwise there couldn't the realization, the experience can't have it) that experience is completely transparent and that in that moment there are no boundaries between inside and outside world.
Just a noticing (that might be of some help to you) - when looking in someone's face (e.g. my daughter) for a moment I had a feeling as if looking into somebody not else but indifferent (with the face traits reminding of those from the Avatar movie, if you've seen it), it happens to me when I look without identification, is this silly or irrelevant nonsense?
Thank you, Yuvi

[yuvi]

I'm glad I received your response, it looks encouraging.

of course, Olivia. I am actually traveling but unexpectedly have some time in the hotel. So getting time to chat with you :)

Yes, it is true, and it totally hits the spot for me realizing that the experience cannot know about itself, without thought involved, the experience is experience - nothing else. I see this crystal clear.

No, when all into experience there are only experiences, that are not identified as such in that moment only afterwards, with no one who is having them - when reviewed in head afterwards it is like ''me'' was the experience. But no, in that very moment of experience there is no any trace of ''me'' having them.

perfect!! perfect!! perfect!!

Indeed, perceptions, sensations and thoughts lead to a feeling ….

No, there is no such feeling. There is only a thought that there is a feeling. Look into this very carefully!

Just a noticing (that might be of some help to you) - when looking in someone's face (e.g. my daughter) for a moment I had a feeling as if looking into somebody not else but indifferent (with the face traits reminding of those from the Avatar movie, if you've seen it), it happens to me when I look without identification, is this silly or irrelevant nonsense?

The moment when thoughts did not label the experience, whatever is IS REAL. So when there is no recognition of face, there is just experience unfiltered and aware. Infact, there is no looking into ‘somebody’. There is no body but experiencing (no experiencer or experiences)
Initially, it was like a witness of experience like a mirror reflecting everything that is cast on it. When looked closely, there is not even a mirror! So when you say ‘somebody’, it implies there is something other than YOU. But all there is is YOU. YOU are experiencing itself. Thoughts divide into experiencer, experiencing and experiences. The moment thoughts “tries” to understand THIS, there will be a division! Mind cannot capture that which is there when mind is not. Mull over this for sometime.

Let’s look at few other questions:
1. Is there something called freewill?
2. How are decisions made?
3. Is there an Olivia that controls body?

[yuvi]

just to clarify a line: YOU are 'experiencing' itself, which i mean 'self aware experience'. Before thought labels and divides, what there is *is* YOU

[lavilavica]

Hi Yuvi,
Hope your trip went well. Just found a moment to post a short reply, present family situation is demanding and challenging (daughter being even more demanding because of the presence of the baby, seems my husband too, so I should be triplicated;), but I also use this situation to stay alert and mull over the things we're passing trough.

But all there is is YOU. YOU are experiencing itself.

...

Mull over this for sometime.

I did. And I see this, that 'I' is transparent and that it is all that it is around me... yes, I get it. But then, the thought comes with doubt - would't that mean indifference, resignation with whatever is since there is no self to stand up for? The anger, the frustration, exhaustion and all have to be accepted and put away, and they lose their strength so I am not sure if they're fading or just suppressed.
I'll be back tomorrow with answers to your last questions - it requires more time. Although I wouldn't say that there can be a free will, if 'I' is what is. I also realize that in my life I always waited for the decision to be brought to me, to be caught by it, rather than to try to make it rationally. The answer just pops up out of nowhere and I just get to know and go for it. In the min-time I suffer from not knowing what I really want, hoping, no, having faith that life will bring what is needed.
Ok, good night now

[lavilavica]

Hi Yuvi,

1. Is there something called freewill?

Thoughts tell us what action to take in a situation, and create the illusion that it is ''me'' who wants it.
From my experience I can say that whenever I've had a will do to something it was not created by thought or ''me'', it just arise out of nowhere and it gives me a push that no thought or ratio could ever have. So, freewill is something completely independent from one's control that comes and directs the action.
I am very happy when a certain will visits me, because it imposes itself, sparing me of unnecessary thinking and it has a power to make me do something and take pleasure in it in the same time, which no thought created action could do. So to finish, no, there is no freewill that can be produced.

2. How are decisions made?

It goes the same with decision making. We think that by thinking we are called to make a decision, but in reality, the final decision is never made by weighting the pros and contras, it is the illusion mind makes. When a decision is there, it's never ''made'' but followed. Afterwards, rethinking and doubting if the decision was the right one, and if ''i'' could choose otherwise, I realize that - if it was really possible in that moment that the decision was different, not the ''wrong'' one, then it would be that way. So I realize that we have no control over our so called decision, cause they are made not ''by'' us but ''for'' us. It is inevitable that precise decision to ''be made'', to come as a solution for the present situation.
It is very difficult for me to make choices and deciding, it takes me a lot of balancing to make my mind (balance horoscope sign:)) so I often have a chance to think about this. At the end I listen to my ''inner voice'' that I have no control of - so to finish, there are no decisions, there is accepting what it is.

3. Is there an Olivia that controls body?

No. It is clear that I have no control over body functioning, reacting or acting. Body runs by itself - like breathing, seeing, having cold or hot... Thoughts often create a body reaction, so it is not totally independent of the mind - like blushing, sweating, shivering, shaking, or other bodily manifestations as a response to a thought. That fact is a little confusing to me. It shows the body-mind connection, and most of the diseases are of psychosomatic origin - but why if thoughts are irrelevant? Even when we are identified with them the truth is only one and therefore they shouldn't have that kind of power over body?
Yuvi, that's for the moment...

[yuvi]

Hi Olivia, ill reply tomorrow. Little held up

[yuvi]

HI Olivia,
yes, i am back from long travel and meetings. But hearing your day to day job with two kids seems very taxing, so you win :)

i am happy with your responses and i feel that you started seeing things clearly beyond the veil of thought-created-belief-in-separate-self. There are few subtle beliefs that i'd like to point to you:

they lose their strength so I am not sure if they're fading or just suppressed

who is concerned with this? Isn't ‘fading’ or ‘suppressed’ just another thought story?

Thoughts tell us what action to take in a situation

Look closely: let go of thoughts and notice that action happens. For e.g. when your daughter calls, there is listening, walking towards daughter, words come without efforts, etc. Action happens all by itself and "then" thought claims that it told you so :)

there is accepting what it is

Even here there is a belief: “accepting”. For accepting, there should be an ‘acceptor” and stuff that is “accepted”. If acceptor is never there, who or what is accepting what?

therefore they (thoughts) shouldn't have that kind of power over body?

Unless it is believed, thoughts have no control. ‘self’ seemingly appear to exist because of the belief in the thought narrative of ‘non existing entity called Olivia’. If this thought is believed (or even attended to), consciousness/awareness is divided into experiencer and experiences. In that division, consciousness sees/feels/perceives itself as ‘self/Olivia' that is separate from ‘experience’. All human suffering – be it physical (contraction, headache, tiredness) or mental (anxiety, fear, pain, jealousy) is because of this division.

*consciousness/awareness are just concepts too. What you are cannot be named for thoughts will try to seat itself there and claim that to be the center. beware!

[lavilavica]

Hi Yuvi,
Sorry for not posting earlier, I guess you already know the reasons, I won't try to justify or repeat myself.
But sometimes it is not even about the time on disposal, I wait for the will to continue, and, unexpectedly, it comes along with some free time too.
When reading your reply, I didn't feel the satisfaction

i am happy with your responses and i feel that you started seeing things clearly beyond the veil of thought-created-belief-in-separate-self.

it's because I don't find that it was something new to me, something I wasn't aware of before, or seeing that it transformed me (yet) in a powerful way...I know, the illusion of great expectations.
However, i do feel significant changes, but the discouragement comes when I don't see them in the everyday acting and relating, there is still persistent reactiveness, frustration moments, doubt and vulnerability. I guess it's all to be expected, and it only confirms that I am only at the start. Ok, I get it out, ready to continue.

who is concerned with this? Isn't ‘fading’ or ‘suppressed’ just another thought story?

Yes, indeed, it's a thought story as well as everything I wrote above.

Look closely: let go of thoughts and notice that action happens. For e.g. when your daughter calls, there is listening, walking towards daughter, words come without efforts, etc. Action happens all by itself and "then" thought claims that it told you so :)

Yes, I can see this. I am not sure about the words though, it seems that they often come out as a result of a thought about - how is it appropriate, or more useful for her to articulate something...so that she get's the message and not feel hurt or diminished. Otherwise, in a moment, I would say something as a result of frustration or itchiness I feel. So I try to adjust it. Or this is too coming by itself?

Even here there is a belief: “accepting”. For accepting, there should be an ‘acceptor” and stuff that is “accepted”. If acceptor is never there, who or what is accepting what?
Yes, I see this clearly, I sometimes don't find the right word so I used "accepting" - that implies the mind receiving the information, processing it and eventually ''accepting''. No, there is the ''isness'' of things that happen with no one to judge on it unless the thought get's involved. There is also ''me'' there within, existing.

Unless it is believed, thoughts have no control.

Yes. I struggled in the beginning, not because I wanted to defend the thought but because it seemed to me that ''seeing'' requires liberation from thoughts, not allowing them to be there. But that is impossible. They will always be there. By time, I guess we manage to sort out those that need to be attended and those unuseful.
And yes, when aware of thought or anything, it makes a division of the one who is aware of something

*consciousness/awareness are just concepts too. What you are cannot be named for thoughts will try to seat itself there and claim that to be the center.

But seeing thoughts, emotions, others...requires awareness, that's how we can make the difference between the thought and the reality, or not? It doesn't mean that it is name for who we are. I really can't find a word that would describe it.
thank you Yuvi for being there, I could'n't find anyone around me to treat this stuff with

[yuvi]

hi Olivia,

no problem, we have established some rapport that's why i didnt follow up on you. Reply when you think it is fit, but dont delay much.

I would say something as a result of frustration or itchiness I feel. So I try to adjust it. Or this is too coming by itself?

The conditioned responses continue to come as I earlier said. The culture, language, environment - all define our habitual reactions that comes when a situation demands. Only now that you have seen the self illusion, there is a clear recognition that there is no reference point. So whatever you are – awareness or consciousness or self-aware experience – happens to look at what is true and the momentum wanes off. Beware: Thoughts will now try taking refuge in 'awareness' and starts claiming that 'I am awareness'. That is a trap too. When all reference points drops, whatever there is, is real. It cannot be captured by mind. So give some time. Don't attempt to behave or react or ‘think’ differently for it will only add momentum. Just surrender and let the body-mind reorganize to the new understanding.

But seeing thoughts, emotions, others...requires awareness

Are these ‘separate’ experiences that are experienced by ‘awareness’? Look closely.
Emotions = sensations + thoughts
Feelings = Sensation +Thoughts
Where does a thought stop and sensation start?
Where does sensation stop and seeing starts?
What divides experience?

I see there are lot of built up expectations that manifests as thoughts. Thoughts continue to struggle to maintain the continuity of non-existing self. Don’t do anything. Not even ‘try’ to not do anything. Because thoughts are not ‘separate’ from you. There is just seamless experience. Olivia is just a belief that continues to fall victim to thought story and resist experience. Illusory self survives in this resistance.

cheers :)

[lavilavica]

Hi Yuvi,

Just a short report of this day, before going to bed.
Thoughts were more intensive today, since I had more free time (baby was sleeping more)
So I was assaulted with the questions I had earlier on - what am I going to do in the future, what if I don't get the answers soon, why am not doing something useful instead of watching tv while baby is asleep..., maybe all these are excuses for not doing the work I stopped before having a baby, it's wrong to think that surrendering is going to give me a push to do the work - what work? the one I was engaged in for so many years; and what is the work I would actually love - no answer? etc. etc.
If things are just happening (or not) on their own, if there is no ''me'' who is responsible, I would so much like to follow the impulse that would guide me without ''me'', the feeling of being stuccked concerning my job reappeared.
I suppose that this is due to resistance of the illusory self, as you wrote, but was very unpleasant to doubt, again.
Please Yuvi, can you tell me if I am on the right way to feel that there must be something different and inspiring that the life holds for me once I release all doubt?
As to answer your questions I would need some clarifications, I am not sure I get it

Where does a thought stop and sensation start?
Where does sensation stop and seeing starts?
What divides experience?

Where sensation stop and thought (labeling it starts)? Is that what you meant?
How to divide sensation and seeing it? Sensation doesn't stop just because is seen?!
Good night Yuvi

[lavilavica]

Hi Yuvi,

It's easier to pass the crisis when I write and post... there is a strong feeling of being unuseful, that lacking time because of the baby is just an excuse for not doing anything, doing the work that is expected. I know, this might not have anything to do with the purpose of the discussion we have (which is not therapeutic, problems solving practice), but it might be useful and honest to write down what is happening, report on thoughts that invade... correct me if I am wrong (even if I know that you usually don't give any comment to this stuff)
The previous day, however, I had a pleasant, relaxing feeling of ''me'' being infinite, limitless, free to engage in whatever speaks to my heart...just, yesterday, reappeared the urge to finally hear that voice, to know what is there for me. Yet, it's illusory I know, and something just keeps me there, sitting and doing nothing...frustration feeling
I hope in time, the water will clear up, thoughts will start to give up, lose their strength, but right now there is the need to do something I don't know yet what it is...

What divides experience?

Thought, it's clear, divides it in two - the one who is having the experience (who witnesses them) and the experience itself. In reality, there is only experience, no witness. yes, there is the awareness of the experience, like the one I wrote you about above - registering thoughts, sensations, feelings and letting them be (even if they are disturbing), but not identifying with them, letting them define who you are...Yuvi, writing this I've just felt lighter and readiness to stand up and do something, while my little boy is sleeping
Sorry for being so erratic