This is it

[randyw]

Good Morning Sandra (Good Afternoon where you are),

It is good that you told me to wait a day to post. I would have been incoherent.
This will also be incoherent, but there may be some coherence in the incoherence.

I have been inundated with self centered thought, but seeing it as only thought has helped a lot (Thank You!)
Trying to rid myself of thought would only make it worse. The thought is just part of what is happening. and that is fine.

Liberation (T)
The idea that one needs to be liberated is an obstacle to liberation. It is better to be liberated from the idea that one needs to be liberated.
The gate (T)
What gate?

Thanks,

Randy

[Canfora]

Hi Randy! Yes, it's supposed to be afternoon here (ahah... funny how we rely in concepts to express the idea of something that doesn't even exist).

It is good that you told me to wait a day to post. I would have been incoherent.
This will also be incoherent, but there may be some coherence in the incoherence.

Yes, there are some things that are hard to talk about. Thoughts can go into one direction and then to the opposite one or around and around in circulatory patterns it seems. And trying to grasp this seeing that is at the same time so simple and so paradoxical and hard to grasp can feel very strange indeed. Like falling without having anything to hold onto and at the same time knowing that everything is the same in a strange way. But I digress...

I have been inundated with self centered thought, but seeing it as only thought has helped a lot (Thank You!)

You're welcome. Good to know that you can see thoughts while they're happening and recognize the different between story (what we think is happening) and experience (what is happening). Identification will still happen. Self centered thoughts will still happen. Recognizing these patterns may require some practice.

Trying to rid myself of thought would only make it worse. The thought is just part of what is happening. and that is fine.

Good.

Liberation (T)
The idea that one needs to be liberated is an obstacle to liberation. It is better to be liberated from the idea that one needs to be liberated.
The gate (T)
What gate?

Wonderful! So tell me Randy...

What is going on right now? What can you see happening? If there is no you, what's left?

What changed (if anything)? What are your doubts (if there are any)? Any fears of what may happen?

Be incoherent if that's how thoughts pop up -- there is no rhyme or reason around this subject, no perfect script :)

Take care,
S

[randyw]

Hi Sandra,

What is going on right now? What can you see happening?

I'll try to make sense of this, but keep in mind that I am not in a steady state. Sometimes I feel energized with a clear understanding that is not really an understanding and all this crazy talk just seems to flow. More often, I feel normal or even not so great. I caught myself being a real jerk last night.
In spite of all this, there is the understanding that it is all just what is happening and freedom permits it all. Even if that is forgotten, the understanding is available.

The idea that one needs to be liberated is an obstacle to liberation. It is better to be liberated from the idea that one needs to be liberated.

I do the best when I throw out the idea that I need to act a certain way or think a certain way. When liberation permits everything, I can start from the view that I am already there and it just flows. If I think that I need to do something, than I end up trying and I get further away.

In the past, I would be in a good space, then I'd start thinking I was special because I'm 'awakened'. The Ego runs with it, them I start to worry that it won't last and I lose it.
Now I seem to understand that the thing is not me, but the greater reality that includes what is me. That thing never goes away because it is existence itself, so I can always go back to it, since I never really left it.

If there is no you, what's left?

What is left is What is happening.

What changed (if anything)?

The realization has deepened. Thoughts have become lighter.

What are your doubts (if there are any)?

I'm not sure what self is/was. I don't know if it is really gone.

I feel a creeping egotistical desire to establish myself as an awakened individual. That is the 'me' that is waiting to sabotage this. < There... I said it!

Thank You!

Randy

[Canfora]

Hi Randy and thank you for your honesty.
What do you think the ego is? How do you know you have a ego?
Do you have any idea of why you are seeking to reach awakening? What will this awakening give you that you don't have at the time being?

[randyw]

The ego is a persistent pattern of thought and behavior. It is not an actual object. I Use the term 'awakening' semi sarcastically.
This is already it. There is nothing to awaken to except for the realization that there is nothing else to awaken to.

[randyw]

Hello Sandra,

I'm sorry for the shortness of the previous response. When I said

There is nothing to awaken to except for the realization that there is nothing else to awaken to.

it was obnoxious to be so dismissive of it all. While it does seem ridiculously obvious when it is seen, there also seems to usually be work that needs to be done before one is ready to see that.
This correspondence has been very helpful to me and I am very grateful that you have taken your time to do this,

Randy

[Canfora]

That's okay Randy. I'm trying to understand where we are. You're last answers don't give me much information.

While it does seem ridiculously obvious when it is seen

Can you talk a little more about this? What is obvious? What is seen?

[randyw]

Hi Sandra,

It is obvious that this reality/universe/event that is happening right now is the thing that matters, because it is the only thing and it includes everything. "I" can refer to many things and they are all just appearances within the greater event. There is an impulse to mentally capture it by conceptualizing, classifying and separating what is mine from what isn't. That impulse is fading. By allowing it all to be as it is, there is a beauty that is seen in every manifestation of it. This ever present reality simply is as it is, and there is nothing apart from it.
The perfection of this reality shines when it is not filtered through the lens of conceptualization. In the light of this, 'self' is not even an issue.

Perspectives change. I have a demanding job, a wife, a kid, and a house in the suburbs. I am expected to present a coherent self to the world. My posts on this forum are not all from the same perspective.

Is there an I? It depends on what you mean by I, and it depends on how you look at it.

Thank you for your patience.

[randyw]

Hello Sandra,

My thoughts have been bouncing around for the last 2 days, but I may have to wait a little before I can say anything useful about this,
The previous post was not too clear.
What is obvious is this:
The ultimate truth or what we are ultimately searching for, is the very same reality that we can't escape from. That is why there is no gate.

I realize that the program here is to work on the 'no self' stuff before moving on to the more interesting stuff. I'm having a hard time saying much about the absence or presence of self. Hopefully things will clear up a little.

Randy.

[Canfora]

Hi Randy,

I have the impression that you are trying to think this through until satisfied. It doesn't work that way. You can't work this out with the same tool that creates the illusion. What you can do is see through all this thinking.

Have a look. Do you see a separate self anywhere? Inside the body, outside the body, reading these words, looking at the screen, in thoughts, in sensations, in emotions, in identification, in ownership, social roles, etc, etc?

If such a self exists you should be able to find it right away, in your direct experience, without the need for elaboration. Take the example of looking for a pair of shoes in a closet - if you pick up a shirt, there is no need to give ten reasons why the shirt isn't the pair of shoes. You know it is not so you just keep looking for the shoes. Treat this inquiry the same way: stick to simple trying to find the entity, the separate thing that you think you are. Can you find a separate you right now? Yes or no?

Remember that you are looking for the person Randy, not evidence of it, thoughts that point to it or parts of it.

Take care,
S

[randyw]

Hello Sandra,

There is no Separate self in direct experience.

Thank You,

Randy

[Canfora]

How about a self hidden in indirect experience? :)

I feel that you are resisting this inquiry and that you have one foot outside the exit the gate door. Am I imagining things? If you feel this is not for you or that a new, fresh approach with other guide would be helpful, that's okay.

[randyw]

Hello Sandra,

I've been inspired at times and frustrated at times. Self can mean many things.
The self that we are talking about here is the same thing that I referred to as ego. It is a pattern of thoughts and behaviors that facilitate interaction with others. It is the role that each of us plays. The problem is that we come to identify with our roles and judge ourselves and others by those roles.

Over the last few years, I have come to see how much I am caught up in my roles and how much I needed to validate myself by establishing myself in my role and being acknowledged by others. Seeing through this has been very important. It is a process that started long before LU. You helped me with this. Thoughts that once hooked me are able to be dropped more quickly.

I should probably elaborate on this and give some examples, but I don't have time right now. Shall that be my homework?

It is also hard to talk about because when I drop a thought it is gone. There is no desire to dwell on it.

Maybe the problem is just with how we use words. I totally get the importance of dis-identifying with roles or ego, but I would never say "There is no me".

Am I imagining things?

No, you are not imagining things. Actually, you are imagining, but your imagination is on target.

Thanks,

Randy

[Canfora]

Hi Randy!

I should probably elaborate on this and give some examples, but I don't have time right now. Shall that be my homework?

You are looking to the symptoms. Turn your attention to the cause.

I would never say "There is no me".

Why not? Is there a "me" somewhere? Or even a "no me"?

Thoughts, behaviors, roles imply the existence of a self? How do you know this is true?
What do you think a self is?

Take care,
S

[randyw]

Hi Sandra

randyw wrote:
I should probably elaborate on this and give some examples, but I don't have time right now. Shall that be my homework?

You are looking to the symptoms. Turn your attention to the cause.

Good. I didn't want to do that anyway!

randyw wrote:
I would never say "There is no me".

Why not? Is there a "me" somewhere? Or even a "no me"?

Never say never. I won't even argue. Dropping the thought.

Thoughts, behaviors, roles imply the existence of a self? How do you know this is true?
What do you think a self is?

I did not mean that those things imply the existence of a self. I meant that that those things literally are the self. The self is nothing more than that.

Self is a concept - or bundle of concepts.

I don't know what 'self' is.

Do you still have self centered thoughts?

If I examine my own experience without considering the supposed experiences of others or concepts, than there is no self or other. it is not 'my own' experience. It is just the experience with nothing outside of that.

Thanks,

Randy