Want to see that there's nobody writing this...

[Xain]

From my direct experience. Observing my actions, thoughts, patterns... Or when I realised that all my past experiences or decisions were based on experiences that had happened before them. Everything happens by cause and effect. There were millions of causes that led me to discover Liberation Unleashed.

That is one way of considering things.

Who or what had these experiences?
Who or what is the 'me' that discovered Liberation Unleashed?

If we take your examples of 'cause and effect', what was being affected by all the causes?

Xain ♥

[Miro]

Who or what had these experiences?

"Miro" only exists as a label.
"I" only exists as a label.
"Mind" is just a concept.
"Body".. hmm... the body is not part of illusory "ME", but part of Life happening by cause and effect... It's like a life is that 3D screen where everything is happening, NOT MIND. ... Body exists on that screen, experiences exists on that screen... It seems like they aren't linked...

I don't know the answer at the moment...

Who or what is the 'me' that discovered Liberation Unleashed?

Discovery happened in the life... It seems it is just there.... Not linked to anyone... It's strange..

If we take your examples of 'cause and effect', what was being affected by all the causes?

It's strange.. I need to go outside for a walk and contemplate on everything... I am puzzled...

[Xain]

We have reached an interesting place.
Let's examine a few things.

If we take 'cause' and 'effect' . . .
If there REALLY IS cause and effect, then this can only be true if there is a 'thing' that is a cause, and something else which is being affected. Two SEPARATE things.
If you are to insist that there is REAL cause and effect, you are insisting that there is a REAL seperate 'you' that is either causing things, or is being affected by things.
What do you think?

Of course, we can still talk about cause and effect as an idea of what is happening. As ideas only.
But is there a 'real' you that is separate to life that is being 'affected'?
Or causing things to occur?
('I' caused something to happen . . . or 'Something happened to 'me').

"I" only exists as a label.
"Mind" is just a concept

Ok - I know what you mean . . .
What about . . . 'I' only exists as a concept in the mind?

To say 'I caused something to happen' or 'Something happened to me' . . . is this really true?
Or just thoughts . . . ideas . . . concepts?

Xain ♥

[Miro]

If we take 'cause' and 'effect' . . .
If there REALLY IS cause and effect, then this can only be true if there is a 'thing' that is a cause, and something else which is being affected. Two SEPARATE things.

I get what you mean. Exactly... Cause is doing/controlling effect is similar to "I" is doing/controlling "the body" ... It's a false belief. But where do we go from here?

If you are to insist that there is REAL cause and effect, you are insisting that there is a REAL seperate 'you' that is either causing things, or is being affected by things.
What do you think?

Yes exactly. But i still don't know how to explain this in any other way than "separated" way..

Of course, we can still talk about cause and effect as an idea of what is happening. As ideas only.
But is there a 'real' you that is separate to life that is being 'affected'?
Or causing things to occur?
('I' caused something to happen . . . or 'Something happened to 'me').

'I' caused something to happen .. Doesn't sound true or possible to me... It's a lie.
'Something happened to 'me'.. Doesn't sound true or possible to me... How can something happened to someone who's not real?

It's easy to say that it's not possible for something to happen to illusory thing. "I" is not real.

But what about 2 "real" things affecting each other? E.g.:

Fire is causing the wood burning. There are 2 real observable things - fire and wood. Burning is happening and wood logs are turning to dust.

Ok - I know what you mean . . .
What about . . . 'I' only exists as a concept in the mind?

I would say 'I' only exists as a concept... But I don't know where or what the mind is...

To say 'I caused something to happen' or 'Something happened to me' . . . is this really true?
Or just thoughts . . . ideas . . . concepts?

It's a thought, idea, and concept as well. It's just not real.

[Xain]

Yes exactly. But i still don't know how to explain this in any other way than "separated" way..

Perhaps there is no other way.
But just to recognise that the 'separated way' is not inherently true or 'real' . . . and that it not a problem :)

'I' caused something to happen .. Doesn't sound true or possible to me... It's a lie.

Instead of 'a lie', how about 'only a label . . . only an idea'.
Just because it is a label and doesn't have inherent truth or existence, doesn't mean we have to reject it or stop talking about it.
If someone in normal conversation says 'I am just going out to buy a bottle of milk', we don't have to tell them they are telling lies all the time.
It's just to recognise that the 'I' is only dependant on the label . . . on thoughts and ideas.

But what about 2 "real" things affecting each other? E.g.:

It is common to try to talk about such things to get an understanding of what is going on.
The thing is, this conversation is about 'I' . . .
It is perfectly possible to realise that 'fire' and 'wood' are not inherently 'real' things - They depend on conceptuality, labels and ideas too.

But this guidance is only for 'I', the separate self we believe we are.

But I don't know where or what the mind is...

Well let's consider it. Thinking and Imagining.

At any one moment we might find the current thought or the current imagined image . . . would that be fair to say?
Either there is a thought or there is not. Either there is an imagined image or there is not.
If there isn't a thought or an imagined there at a particular time . . . is there a mind?

Xain ♥

[Miro]

Perhaps there is no other way.
But just to recognise that the 'separated way' is not inherently true or 'real' . . . and that it not a problem :)

Ok, so are there any more recognitions to realise? There is no free will, there is no "ME"... But what about refuting the external world? or "Oneness with everything", or consciousness etc... I know this is probably a topic for another forum... Or...?

And what about private messages? will "you" or anybody else help "me" to understand other things beside "no self"? :)

Or should I read more books?

Instead of 'a lie', how about 'only a label . . . only an idea'.
Just because it is a label and doesn't have inherent truth or existence, doesn't mean we have to reject it or stop talking about it.
If someone in normal conversation says 'I am just going out to buy a bottle of milk', we don't have to tell them they are telling lies all the time.
It's just to recognise that the 'I' is only dependant on the label . . . on thoughts and ideas.

Ok. Don't worry. I will not go to my mother and tell her "There is nobody to do vacuum cleaning." :)

At any one moment we might find the current thought or the current imagined image . . . would that be fair to say?
Either there is a thought or there is not. Either there is an imagined image or there is not.
If there isn't a thought or an imagined there at a particular time . . . is there a mind?

Yes it seems like there is no mind... There are just thoughts... No thought = no mind.

[Xain]

Yes it seems like there is no mind... There are just thoughts... No thought = no mind.

Good - So would it be fair to say that 'Mind' is a label for the stream of thoughts and imagined images?
So 'Mind' is only a label. It is an 'assumed' container, but this container we cannot locate.
It's not something that has 'real existence'. It's just an idea to help us understand what's going on.

Ok, so are there any more recognitions to realise? There is no free will, there is no "ME"... But what about refuting the external world? or "Oneness with everything", or consciousness etc... I know this is probably a topic for another forum... Or...?

After you go-through-the-gate here, there are many more forums to access on these subjects, including private messaging me if needed for further assistance (but I can only go so far, I am not an expert in there things).

This guidance is only to examine 'I', the separate person we believe is here right now.
It is common to think of this realisation as the 'start' of the process (and a very important first step).

Ok. Don't worry. I will not go to my mother and tell her "There is nobody to do vacuum cleaning." :)

Good :-)
Unfortunately after the guidance, many people step into the 'nihilist' shoes.
Rather than understanding that the word 'I' is only an idea - A concept which depends on thoughts, they assume the new belief 'I don't exist' or 'There is no me'. But conventional life still goes on, regardless of any new thing they might start saying. Bottles of Milk have to be bought, cups of coffee still need to be made, jobs need to be done.
Far better to simply realise that the word 'I' doesn't point to anything real. Just like 'Santa Claus'.
We can play along each Christmas time with Children being excited about what presents they will get. But we know it's an illusion. Just a story really.
But . . . there is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't have to be rejected.

Going back to 'thoughts' and 'mind', do you believe that these things have an owner?
If you imagine an orange, is there a 'you' doing that?
If not a 'you' . . . anything . . . do you believe that there is 'something separate' doing that?

Xain ♥

[Miro]

Good - So would it be fair to say that 'Mind' is a label for the stream of thoughts and imagined images?
So 'Mind' is only a label. It is an 'assumed' container, but this container we cannot locate.
It's not something that has 'real existence'. It's just an idea to help us understand what's going on.

Ok good.

After you go-through-the-gate here, there are many more forums to access on these subjects, including private messaging me if needed for further assistance (but I can only go so far, I am not an expert in there things).

This guidance is only to examine 'I', the separate person we believe is here right now.
It is common to think of this realisation as the 'start' of the process (and a very important first step).

Great, Thank "you" ... hmm.. Whom am I thanking to... It seems that life is thanking itself...?

BTW who are you? Are you male or female? How old are you and where are "you" from? :) And don't say "Everywhere and nowhere" :-D

Unfortunately after the guidance, many people step into the 'nihilist' shoes.
Rather than understanding that the word 'I' is only an idea - A concept which depends on thoughts, they assume the new belief 'I don't exist' or 'There is no me'. But conventional life still goes on, regardless of any new thing they might start saying. Bottles of Milk have to be bought, cups of coffee still need to be made, jobs need to be done.
Far better to simply realise that the word 'I' doesn't point to anything real. Just like 'Santa Claus'.
We can play along each Christmas time with Children being excited about what presents they will get. But we know it's an illusion. Just a story really.
But . . . there is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't have to be rejected.

I will not become a nihilist... To tell you the truth, realisation of "no free-will" [thanks to Sam Harris & actualized.org youtube channel] had a lot bigger "WOW" effect than "NO SELF" realisation. But once again THANK YOU for your patience :)

Going back to 'thoughts' and 'mind', do you believe that these things have an owner?

Nobody is thinking thoughts. Nobody is experiencing them. They just appear... They are just a part of life.
Even if the mind was real, there's nobody who can have it. But a mind is just a label... A concept...

If you imagine an orange, is there a 'you' doing that?
If not a 'you' . . . anything . . . do you believe that there is 'something separate' doing that?

Cause and effect is doing that to NOBODY :) ... But it seems that "cause and effect" is just another name for "Life"...
Understanding of "cause and effect" is just a thought... Everything is just a concept! "Life" is full of concepts...

[Xain]

Ok, Good stuff.

Just before I go and answer your other questions, please consider the following.
Please be totally honest. Consider the questions deeply.

Let's go over the senses - Seeing, hearing, feelings, smell and taste.
Just sit there for a moment and examine them.
Are these senses linked to the body in any way? Is the body 'doing' any of these senses / is responsible for these senses?
Can anything other than 'what is seen, what is heard, what is tasted' etc be found?
Perhaps, in other words, is there anything here 'doing life'?

Move your arm about for a moment. Sway it left and right.
Is the body . . . or ANYTHING responsible for that action?
Is there control or choice over the movement of the arm IN ANY WAY and FROM ANYTHING?

Compare the movement of the arm, to a branch swaying in the wind.
What is the difference between these two - Is one 'controlled' and one 'not'?
Is one being 'chosen to happen' and the other not?

Xain ♥

[Miro]

Let's go over the senses - Seeing, hearing, feelings, smell and taste.
Just sit there for a moment and examine them.

Nobody chose to see, hear, feel, smell, taste in the first place... Nobody chose to see when "he" was born... Nobody chose his senses... It just happened automatically. Everything was learned from the birth automatically... Separation of "I" was learned. Illusion of free will was learned...

Are these senses linked to the body in any way? Is the body 'doing' any of these senses / is responsible for these senses?

Remember our "Fire is causing the wood burning" debate? it's similar to "the body is doing senses"...

but...

If I say the body is doing senses - that would be just a concept, a thought, an imagination. Hmm. And if senses are produced by the body, it's just doing its thing... No one owns the body... It's the same as the Wind is blowing.. Wind is blowing for no one... With no free will... With no purpose... The most correct answer is that "causes and effects" are "doing" the senses.

Is that ok? Because this is a very tricky question.

Can anything other than 'what is seen, what is heard, what is tasted' etc be found?
Perhaps, in other words, is there anything here 'doing life'?

I think there is nobody in the world who knows what is here "doing life" and why there is cause and effect happening. All there is to know is that there is just life happening. Everything else is just a concept.

Move your arm about for a moment. Sway it left and right.
Is the body . . . or ANYTHING responsible for that action?

I think there is only one correct answer to that... Causes and effects are doing that... Nobody controls them...

Is there control or choice over the movement of the arm IN ANY WAY and FROM ANYTHING?

No... It's not possible to control anything.

Compare the movement of the arm, to a branch swaying in the wind.
What is the difference between these two - Is one 'controlled' and one 'not'?
Is one being 'chosen to happen' and the other not?

Both situations are on the same level... They are controlled by cause and effect. If there is no free will, there is NO CHOOSING.

[Xain]

I think you misunderstand what I am asking.
I am asking you to actually examine things in the moment.

Move your arm about for a moment. Sway it left and right.
Is the body . . . or ANYTHING responsible for that action?

I think there is only one correct answer to that... Causes and effects are doing that... Nobody controls them...

Is this something you found when you swung your arm about? That 'Causes and Effects' were making it happen?
I'm not asking you what is the correct answer, or what you believe is right or wrong . . . . I am asking you what can you FIND.

Both situations are on the same level... They are controlled by cause and effect.

Right now, can you find a 'cause and effect'? What does it look like? How big is it?
Or this nothing more than an idea - A belief you have?

What is the CAUSE you can actually FIND that is making the arm move, the muscles to contract etc?

Xain ♥

[Miro]

Move your arm about for a moment. Sway it left and right.
Is the body . . . or ANYTHING responsible for that action?

I think there is only one correct answer to that... Causes and effects are doing that... Nobody controls them...

Is this something you found when you swung your arm about? That 'Causes and Effects' were making it happen?
I'm not asking you what is the correct answer, or what you believe is right or wrong . . . . I am asking you what can you FIND.

My direct experience:
There is a hand swaying left to right... Nobody chose which hand to sway... It is just happening.. Swaying is happening

after that, a thought came, that it's done with cause and effect. But in my direct experience, hand was just swaying...

Right now, can you find a 'cause and effect'? What does it look like? How big is it?
Or this nothing more than an idea - A belief you have?

Cause and effect is AN ASSUMPTION :) :) :) .. Wow!! it's just another concept.... It's a THOUGHT! :)

What is the CAUSE you can actually FIND that is making the arm move, the muscles to contract etc?

I thought the cause was your text asking me to sway the arm. But it's not... Either it's an unlimited number of previous causes OR it's just a life happening. But all that are just concepts, thoughts, imaginations... In my direct experience there was just a hand swaying.

[Xain]

It is important to examine 'Cause and effect' in relation to 'I', the separate self.

There is a hand swaying left to right... Nobody chose which hand to sway

Wouldn't 'Nobody chose' also be a thought / an idea about what was going on?
Can you establish anything more than 'an arm moved' at this point?

If a branch swayed, could you say 'nothing made that happen' with certainty?
Or would you offer 'The wind' as an acceptable IDEA / THOUGHT?

Cause and effect is AN ASSUMPTION :) :) :) .. Wow!! it's just another concept.... It's a THOUGHT! :)

Yes. Good. So we have established any 'cause' is an assumption (thought).
So is there anything at all, an 'I', a 'me', a 'body' . . . anything at all separate that is causing anything to happen?
To put it another way, could anything that is stated as a cause (E.g. I did that) be also an assumption (thought)?

Or examine 'Effect'.
Is there an 'I', a 'me', a 'body' . . . anything at all separate that is being affected by something else (other than assumptions / thought)?

Xain ♥

[Miro]

We're going so deep! But that is actually great.

There is a hand swaying left to right... Nobody chose which hand to sway

Wouldn't 'Nobody chose' also be a thought / an idea about what was going on?
Can you establish anything more than 'an arm moved' at this point?

There is just a hand moving. That's it. Everything else is just a thought.

If a branch swayed, could you say 'nothing made that happen' with certainty?
Or would you offer 'The wind' as an acceptable IDEA / THOUGHT?

"Nothing made that happen" or "The wind" are both just ideas. In direct experience there is just a branch swaying.

So is there anything at all, an 'I', a 'me', a 'body' . . . anything at all separate that is causing anything to happen?

No... It seems that there are only 2 ways: Direct experience & Thoughts.

In direct experience things are just happening with no "rules".
In thoughts it's common to try to assign some rules/labels to what is happening... But that's just more concepts...

'I', a 'me', a 'body' , 'anything separate' ... aren't causing anything to happen...

To put it another way, could anything that is stated as a cause (E.g. I did that) be also an assumption (thought)?

Yes. That's a thought.

Or examine 'Effect'.
Is there an 'I', a 'me', a 'body' . . . anything at all separate that is being affected by something else (other than assumptions / thought)?

That's a thought... Whole understanding of life is just based on thoughts/assumptions...

[Xain]

Your replies are excellent.
Do you have any questions at this point?
Is there any confusion anywhere?

Do you think you have realised that there is no real 'self'?
And . . . at the same time . . . realised that there is no real 'self' to realise anything anyway?

Xain ♥