The Gate

From your suggestions, it seems that . . . rather than the arm just 'moving with no apparent controller', you are suggesting that it is under the control and being made to move by the arm itself.
Is that right? Are the fingers also under the control of the fingers themselves?
How exactly have you come to these conclusions?
I mean, sure, you can visually 'see' an arm and a hand - How are they controlling themselves?
Do the hand and arm 'know' what they are going to do next?

This makes things a lot clearer, the arm and hand do not know what they are going to do next, it's not that they control themselves but rather that there are just moving 'with no apparent controller'.

If we go to the visual experience, we can see an object called an arm, and that sometimes it is still, and sometimes it is moving.
Is that fair to say?

Yes, that is fair to say.

In normal speaking we say 'I am moving my arm - So can an 'I' be found moving the arm?

No, there is no "I" to be found moving the arm. Just the arm which is an image in the visual field and a bundle of sensations.

Thank you for explaining, Shasin - Great! I just wanted to make sure I understood what you meant.

And how about choice?

Same exercise - Same inquiry really.

1) In choosing the hand (left or right), can you find what is making that happen - What is choosing? What is making the choice?
2) Can an 'I', a Sashin or a body be found that is making the choice?

Take an honest look - What do you feel is going on?
And then, of course - What do you think to the idea or phrase 'I am choosing'?
Is it possible that the hand is not being chosen at all? That (as in the previous inquiry), left or right is 'simply happening'?

Xain ♥

1) In choosing the hand (left or right), can you find what is making that happen - What is choosing? What is making the choice?

I don't think so. Sometimes there is thought before the hand moves, but I'm not sure the thought is what controls the hand. I think the hand moves without something choosing which hand moves.

2) Can an 'I', a Sashin or a body be found that is making the choice?

No, an "I" or a "Sashin" or "a body" cannot be found that is making the choice.

You watch a branch swaying in the wind.
You watch an arm/hand moving up and down.
What's the difference between these two?
Is one being made to happen and the other not?
Is one being chosen to happen and the other not?

Xain

You watch a branch swaying in the wind.
You watch an arm/hand moving up and down.
What's the difference between these two?

With the arm moving up and down, there are also sensations. The tree does not have any sensations attached.
It is still much more clear that there is no "I" controlling the branch, than that there is no "I" controlling the hand.
Both of these events feel very different.

Is one being made to happen and the other not?

No, they are both natural phenomena. They just happen.

Is one being chosen to happen and the other not?

Both of these just happen without being chosen to happen.

I feel unsure about my answers here, watch my arm move up and down and watching a branch swaying in the wind seem to feel fundamentally different, even though logically I think they are not.

Actually, my question didn't reference 'feeling' - Merely just the examination of watching two things occurring and making a comparison between the two.
However, since you mention feeling . . .

The tree does not have any sensations attached

Do arms have sensations attached?

Close your eyes - Go to the sensation which is usually referred to as 'feeling of my arm'.
Do you find an arm? Do you find an arm feeling? Or is there just 'a sensation'?
Is there a body here feeling an outside world?

And going back . . .

Both of these just happen without being chosen to happen.

Good. So is it clear that both the arm moving and the swaying of the branch are both 'just happening' and completely 'without being chosen to act'.
Can you see it is only from thought that the difference is made? - That one is assumed to be chosen and controlled, and the other isn't?

Xain ♥

Close your eyes - Go to the sensation which is usually referred to as 'feeling of my arm'.
Do you find an arm? Do you find an arm feeling? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

No, there is no arm. There is only sensation. "Arm" is a thought or a label applied to the cloud of sensation afterwards.

Is there a body here feeling an outside world?

No, there is only a bundle of sensations.

Can you see it is only from thought that the difference is made? - That one is assumed to be chosen and controlled, and the other isn't?

Yes, now that is very clear.

Good stuff! You're doing really well.

So now let us examine thoughts / thinking /imagining.

Exercise:
Right now think a thought - Any thought will do - Or you could imagine an object.
Thinking and imagination can be examined in the same way as remembering smells and tastes.

1) In the thinking or imagining, can anything be found other than 'the current thought' or 'the current imagined image'?
2) Can you find an 'I', a body or a Sashin that it witnessing these things? Is there a separate thinker or imaginer here to be found?
3) Just like the last exercise with choice and control - Is there an 'I' to be found in control of thoughts?

(About arms and branches swaying)

Both of these just happen without being chosen to happen.

Could the thinking process be exactly the same? Simply 'happening'? And not even happening for an 'I', a separate person at all?

To put it a different way, could 'I am thinking' be just an idea about another idea?
(The 'I' being the first idea, and that the suggestion that 'I' is doing a process called 'thinking' is the other idea).

Xain ♥

1) In the thinking or imagining, can anything be found other than 'the current thought' or 'the current imagined image'?

The thought that came to mind was "I am thinking a thought". I also visualised a candle on my desk. There is nothing in thinking/imagining that can be found apart from the current thought or imagined image.

2) Can you find an 'I', a body or a Sashin that it witnessing these things? Is there a separate thinker or imaginer here to be found?

No, an 'I', 'body' or 'Sashin' cannot be found. There is just the thought and the image, there isn't a separate thinker or imaginer.

3) Just like the last exercise with choice and control - Is there an 'I' to be found in control of thoughts?

There is no 'I' to be found that is in control of thoughts. The thoughts emerge seemingly out of nothing and then fade away into nothing.

Could the thinking process be exactly the same? Simply 'happening'? And not even happening for an 'I', a separate person at all?

Yes, I think thoughts are the same. They are just happening. There is no one that they are "happening to" or "happening for".

To put it a different way, could 'I am thinking' be just an idea about another idea?
(The 'I' being the first idea, and that the suggestion that 'I' is doing a process called 'thinking' is the other idea).

Yes, this is the way it seems. "I am thinking" is just an idea.

So let's try for some open questions now . . .
I will use the term 'real' to point to something that is not dependent on thoughts.

In this guidance, we have assumed a position of 'me' guiding 'you'.
Is there a 'real' person here right now called 'Sashin' that is being guided?
Was there ever?

We assume that 'you' chose to come here to be guided.
Was there ever a 'real' person making choices?
Was a 'real' choice ever made to be guided? Was 'real' choice ever made by you?
Could all of it . . . and I mean literally ALL of it . . . have been just simply 'happening' without choice or control in any way?

We assume that right here and right now, there is a 'real' person, an 'I' or 'me' called 'Sashin'.
Is such a 'real' person here right now. A separate self?

To put it another way, could all of this just be the result of unexamined thoughts, thoughts without any control, and thoughts not even appearing to a separate person?

Xain ♥

In this guidance, we have assumed a position of 'me' guiding 'you'.
Is there a 'real' person here right now called 'Sashin' that is being guided?
Was there ever?

I'm finding it hard to answer this question, a part of me is saying "Of course there's a person called Sashin" but that is just a thought. There are thoughts, sights, sounds, sensations and emotions but there is no one that is in the midst of them, experiencing them. This is the way it is, always was and always will be. This seems to affect me a lot. Everything seems so significant now. There isn't a "Sashin" choosing to be guided, this is just happening. It feels like it was meant to happen, that this had to happen as if it were destined. This is just life flowing, and a part of that flow seems to have inevitably led to this guidance occurring.

We assume that 'you' chose to come here to be guided.
Was there ever a 'real' person making choices?
Was a 'real' choice ever made to be guided? Was 'real' choice ever made by you?
Could all of it . . . and I mean literally ALL of it . . . have been just simply 'happening' without choice or control in any way?

There was no real person making choices. Thoughts just arise, there is no one to choose which thoughts come into being. There is no entity that is making choices. There wasn't a real choice to be guided, in a way this had to happen. It makes this and all of life feel so significant, events that happen have to have happened in that way. All of this is happening without choice or control in any way.

We assume that right here and right now, there is a 'real' person, an 'I' or 'me' called 'Sashin'.
Is such a 'real' person here right now. A separate self?

There is no such real person here right now. There is just the image of this screen with its words, a bundle of thoughts and sensations.

To put it another way, could all of this just be the result of unexamined thoughts, thoughts without any control, and thoughts not even appearing to a separate person?

All of which? The apparent sense of self? Yes it is entirely constructed of unexamined thoughts without any control that do not even appear to a separate person.

There isn't a "Sashin" choosing to be guided, this is just happening. It feels like it was meant to happen, that this had to happen as if it were destined. This is just life flowing, and a part of that flow seems to have inevitably led to this guidance occurring.

Beautiful - Yes!
Of course 'destined' would mean that something somewhere had control and choice over life - But it's OK to talk about these things.
Just life flowing - Yes - Always has been - Always will be - Just thoughts getting in the way suggesting 'what ain't so' :)

From what you write, it seems clear that you have realised something profound.

This seems to affect me a lot. Everything seems so significant now.

How does it feel to see this?
Is it clear to you that there has never been a 'real' Sashin?
Is there any confusion or questions you have about this?

Xain ♥

Of course 'destined' would mean that something somewhere had control and choice over life - But it's OK to talk about these things.

It's not that someone somewhere had control or choice over life, rather it is that "I" had no say in the matter, things had to happen the way they did. I couldn't have chosen otherwise.

How does it feel to see this?

It made everything feel significant, like life was this rollercoaster ride and "I'm" strapped in. Who knows where it will take me next? At the same time, right now I feel the same way I've always felt.

Is it clear to you that there has never been a 'real' Sashin?

I don't know. If there isn't a Sashin now --and "I" can't find one-- I don't see how there could have ever been such an entity.

Is there any confusion or questions you have about this?

I don't know if I have certainty, it doesn't feel obvious enough to me yet. But at the same time, that's just a thought. I don't know if something is missing, or if it's just the thought that something is missing that is arising.

I don't know if I have certainty, it doesn't feel obvious enough to me yet.

What exactly needs to happen to make this obvious?
And what is this 'You' that needs certainty?

At the same time, right now I feel the same way I've always felt.

Is there an expectation that things will change in some way? Who or what would things change for?

But at the same time, that's just a thought.

So where's this 'real' 'I', that isn't dependent on thought?

I don't know if something is missing, or if it's just the thought that something is missing that is arising.

You tell me?

Xain ♥

What exactly needs to happen to make this obvious?
And what is this 'You' that needs certainty?

I don't know, I think that something needs to happen is only a thought. There's the thought that something needs to happen, that's all there is to it. There's no reality behind the thought. Ohhhh, there is no "I", and therefore no entity that requires certainty.

Is there an expectation that things will change in some way? Who or what would things change for?

I suppose having an expectation isn't really productive for this, it gets in the way. There is no self for things to change for. I can't shake the expectation however, that something should happen, otherwise what would be the point? I still feel confused here, but I suppose the confusion is just thoughts. There shouldn't be an expectation and there is no "self" for things to change for.

So where's this 'real' 'I', that isn't dependent on thought?

There is no real "I", there is just the bundle of thoughts.

You tell me?

It's just a thought or feeling that something is missing, that's all. I have a question for you. Is there a sharp line between thoughts and feelings? I'm starting to think and feel that they are really interrelated.

I felt uncertainty and doubt arise when answering these questions. I wonder if that's normal.