Tat Tvam Asi

[Frankos]

1) Is there anything to be found in 'Experiencing' other than 'The Current Experience'?

No, there is only 'The Current Experience'.

2) Can anything be found 'doing experiencing', or is the only thing to find 'The Current Experience'? Again - Really check - Consider this deeply.

I know that nothing can be found doing the experiencing, it is just happening. But the illusion that there is an 'I' involved is quite strong, even though the 'I' cannot be located.

3) Is there a body or an 'I', a 'Frank' to be found experiencing right now (performing the function of) 'experiencing'? Concentrate specifically on anything you can find 'doing it'. Can anything be found? Or is there just 'the current experience'?

No, there is definitely no 'Frank' involved that I can in way identify. The experience just happens.

Regards
Frank

[Frankos]

No, there is definitely no 'Frank' involved that I can in any way identify. The experience just happens.

[DanielP]

Great Frank,

So far we've cover the senses and we both agree.

No, there is definitely no 'Frank' involved that I can in any way identify. The experience just happens.

Yes there is just EXPERIENCE-ING happening.

I know that nothing can be found doing the experiencing, it is just happening. But the illusion that there is an 'I' involved is quite strong

yes, this is THE belief but tell me, what is it that makes you hold on to this belief when your experience says that it's not true?

Regards

Daniel

[Frankos]

yes, this is THE belief but tell me, what is it that makes you hold on to this belief when your experience says that it's not true?

That's a good question?
I'm not sure?
Maybe this thing 'I' that thinks it exists is protecting it's existence?
If this gets proven to be correct, then that 'I' is wiped out, gone kaput!
Maybe this conditioning and false thoughts is afraid of change?
I'm not sure?

[DanielP]

Hi Francos,

Yes, fear is a good candidate, self-protection and conditioning too. Maybe it’s fear provoked by something which can’t be found!

So far we've examined the senses, we’ll look into choice and control now. Approach this experiment in the same way you have done with the others – It’s the same thing.

Choice and control experiment

As you sit, choose one of your hands - IT doesn't matter which one.
And when you feel you ready, choose one hand and raise it in the air.

Do this as many times as you like, but each time inquire:

1) What can be found that is in control of the hand rising in the air?
What can be found making the muscles contract and the limb move?
What is making it do that?
Don't try to think what the right answer might be. Instead use the senses, look inside and try to FIND what is causing that to happen. See if you FIND anything.
2) What about the phrase 'I am moving the arm', or 'I am in control of this hand'? Can you find an 'I'? Can you locate a function doing the choosing? Or as in the other experiment, nothing can be found other then 'movement' taking place?

Regards

Daniel

[Frankos]

1) What can be found that is in control of the hand rising in the air?

I know that it seems like I'm thinking to raise the hand. But I'm not aware of the muscles contacting, etc.
I can't find anything that is in control of what is happening. Somehow it just happens!

2) What about the phrase 'I am moving the arm', or 'I am in control of this hand'?

As before, it's seems like an 'I' made that decision but where the F is the "I".
That 'I' that seems to be there cannot be found. Is it these thoughts? No, because the origin of these thoughts can't be found.
There is no 'I'.

[DanielP]

Hi Frank,

I can't find anything that is in control of what is happening. Somehow it just happens!

Good.

As before, it's seems like an 'I' made that decision but where the F is the "I".

Hahaha. Good question!

That 'I' that seems to be there cannot be found. Is it these thoughts? No, because the origin of these thoughts can't be found. There is no 'I'.

No function of ‘choosing’, no ‘chooser’, no 'I' is to be found...

Let's move on to thinking and imagining.

We’ll approach it the same way we did until now. In this inquiry, look at the thinking process only to find the answers.

Inquiry:

While sitting, either think of an idea or imagine an image. As you do that . . . inquire . . .
1) Can anything be found in thinking/imagining other than what is thought/imagined?
2) Can you find anything that makes the thought or the image appear?
3) Is there a body, an 'I', a Frank to be found making it happen?
4) Is there a body, an 'I', a Frank to be found witnessing that thought or that image?
5) If you couldn't find what was controlling the arm, can you find what is controlling the thoughts? Are these things controlled at ALL? If so, what did you find that would be in control of them.
6) Could it be that the arm and the thoughts are simply 'happening'? And that thoughts aren't being witnessed / experienced by a separate person called Frank?

Keep it up Frank, we are slowly but surely closing up all the rat holes :)

Regards

Daniel

[Frankos]

While sitting, either think of an idea or imagine an image. As you do that . . . inquire . . .
1) Can anything be found in thinking/imagining other than what is thought/imagined?
2) Can you find anything that makes the thought or the image appear?
3) Is there a body, an 'I', a Frank to be found making it happen?
4) Is there a body, an 'I', a Frank to be found witnessing that thought or that image?
5) If you couldn't find what was controlling the arm, can you find what is controlling the thoughts? Are these things controlled at ALL? If so, what did you find that would be in control of them.
6) Could it be that the arm and the thoughts are simply 'happening'? And that thoughts aren't being witnessed / experienced by a separate person called Frank?

It appears like I have an image in my mind and it appears that nothing else can be found other than what is being thought/imagined.
I cannot find anything, anywhere that makes the image appear.
There doesn't seem to be a body or an 'I' making it happen.

I think there is something witnessing what is happening otherwise what would be able to talk about it later?
This is where we get into the hard stuff. All the exercises before where easy, 'There is no I in control'.
When it comes to the thoughts, it seems like there's a witness?

At my age now the thoughts that I have now are not at all like the thoughts I had as a three year old, or as a teenager.
But it seems like there was something present to witness those thoughts at different periods of my life. Something that will go into to a new body when this body drops off?
Is it like a Soul, an Atman, that continues through this illusion?
I don't know, here I'm confused?

I cannot control the thoughts, they just occur. It's easy to believe I control them but I know from much inquiry that I don't.
I agree that the thoughts are not being controlled but I have a problem with accepting that they are not being witnessed by something (maybe God)?

[DanielP]

Good Frank,

I cannot find anything, anywhere that makes the image appear.
There doesn't seem to be a body or an 'I' making it happen.

Yes, yes, yes…

I think there is something witnessing what is happening otherwise what would be able to talk about it later? This is where we get into the hard stuff. All the exercises before where easy, 'There is no I in control'. When it comes to the thoughts, it seems like there's a witness?

If it’s ok with you, i’ll keep this question for later. I would like first to complete what we’ve done so far. Are you ok with that?

So far we've cover 'feeling or sensing' (I'm referring to the senses), 'choosing', 'thinking' and 'imagining' and no 'I' was ever found.

Now ponder the following questions carefully, especially the last one and see if you can find an 'I' in there or not.

Inquiry:

If there is no 'I' doing the 'feeling' or the 'sensing'?
If there is no 'I' doing the 'choosing'?
If there is no 'I' doing the 'thinking' and the 'imagining'?
Why on earth would there be an 'I' doing the 'believing'? Is there an 'I' doing the 'believing'?

Regards

Daniel

[Frankos]

Are you ok with that?

Yes, that's fine.

If there is no 'I' doing the 'feeling' or the 'sensing'?
If there is no 'I' doing the 'choosing'?
If there is no 'I' doing the 'thinking' and the 'imagining'?
Why on earth would there be an 'I' doing the 'believing'? Is there an 'I' doing the 'believing'?

There is no 'I', that is definite. So there can't be an 'I' to do the believing.
Accepted, there is no 'I' to do the believing!

[DanielP]

Good Frank,

So far we've cover 'feeling', 'choosing', 'thinking', 'imagining' and 'believing' and no 'I' was found.

For the next inquiry, I'll try to point to a very precise aspect of experience. To do this, I will use part of an experiment we already did. The 2nd part of the seeing experiment remember ?

Look to the right, 'what is seen' is the image on the right.
Look to the left, 'what is seen' is the image on the left.

Here are some things to consider:

First the image on the right is seen, then the image on the left,
but the moment seeing the image on the left occurs, the image on the right is DEAD. If you doubt this, check it out for yourself. Do you agree?

The ONLY LIVING EXPERIENCE is the PRESENT or the CURRENT experience. In other word if we say that living is experiencing life, then the ONLY life there is, is the CURRENT experience. You have NEVER experience anything else…NEVER, check it out for yourself. Have you ever experience something other then the Current experience? something other then THIS?

If this is true, why are we looking for another experience since the ONLY experience there is, is THIS experience?

Can you see that the only way we can compare two experiences, is if we split them in parts and compare the parts or if we compare a living experience with a dead one. The problem is that the CURRENT experience is ALIVE, not dead, and it is not made out of parts, it is ONE experience. Check it out, all of the seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking, doing, believing is experienced right here, right now in this same EXPERIENCE-ING. Do you agree?

Regards

Daniel

[Frankos]

Check it out, all of the seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking, doing, believing is experienced right here, right now in this same EXPERIENCE-ING. Do you agree?

Yes, back to easy stuff again. There was a meditation teacher who used to stress that all the time "We are only experiencing the 'present' ". I learnt that over twenty years ago.

It is very obvious to this awareness, yesterday is about as real as a dream I may have had last night. And as I get older, the memory of the past isn't that great anyway (lucky it's not real!).

And the future definitely doesn't exist.

Regards
Frank

[DanielP]

Hi Frank,

Yes, back to easy stuff again. There was a meditation teacher who used to stress that all the time "We are only experiencing the 'present' ". I learnt that over twenty years ago.

Please note that I'm not talking about the idea of "experiencing the 'present' ", I'm talking about the 'thing' behind the words, so It's easy, yes and no:

Easy to understand intellectually yes, but not so easy to understand experientially and to see all the implications.

Let me try to point out a few of these implications:

If there is only THIS, why the search for something that would be not-THIS, different from THIS, or beyond THIS?
If there is only THIS, then even the feeling of being incomplete is THIS.
How big is THIS, how wide is THIS, how finite is THIS?
Can you REALLY see a dividing line between THIS and not-THIS? Where do you divide?
If there is only THIS, and there is no 'I' doing it, what is THIS?

Can you see that these questions only make sense if you really understand what THIS is?

Do you REALLY understand what THIS is? Please ponder this one deeply.
Do you experience any 'I' doing THIS?

With this inquiry, we're diving into the exploration of the the nature of THIS. But this exploration is beyond the scope of what we're doing here at LU which is to point out the fact that there is only this life life-ing so to speak and that there is no entity, no separate 'I' 'doing' it. The exploration of the nature of THIS usually comes after the gate.

Regards

Daniel

[Frankos]

Do you REALLY understand what THIS is? Please ponder this one deeply.
Do you experience any 'I' doing THIS?

I'm quite sure that I understand what you're saying intellectually.
But I guess, as you say, there's more to THIS than meets the eye!

If there is only THIS, and there is no 'I' doing it, what is THIS?

I guess this comes back to that big question of mine I was talking about before.
This not easy at all because in my THIS, there is an 'I' awareness that takes ownership.
There should NOT be the experience of an 'I' in this 'THIS' moment.

After hundreds of books that I've read and countless teachers, this is the crux of my problem.
The false 'I' is present in the 'THIS'!

How many lifetimes will it take for me to solve this one?

[DanielP]

Hi Frank,

This not easy at all because in my THIS, there is an 'I' awareness that takes ownership.

This depend of your definition of awareness. If you are using the normal definition, ‘awareness’ = more or less the ‘mind’, then if there is an identification with the mind, yes ‘there is an 'I' awareness that takes ownership’. But if you define awareness the way it is in traditional vedanta, then ‘awareness’ is ‘that which is aware of the mind’. It is not the mind. Very different.

Let’s come back to your experience. If you have a ‘thought experience’ is it separate from the awareness of the thought? If so how? If you have a ‘seeing experience’ is it separate from the awareness of the sight?

Can you see that in your experience, awareness is not separate from that which it is aware of? So why talk about two ‘thing’? Why not talk only about THIS?

There should NOT be the experience of an 'I' in this 'THIS' moment.

How’s that? Who will brush your teeth? If you think that Frank will disappear then you’re in for a ride cause your stuck with Frank for the rest of your life my friend. It is part of THIS. Not real as a separate entity but still perfectly valid as a social identity to help us make the difference between the shirt of Frank and the shirt of Daniel.

Also, there is no THIS moment, there is only THIS. We use the term 'present', 'current' or 'this moment' to talk about it but it is more of a flow then anything else. Ungraspable. Using the word 'this moment' is misleading. It gives us the impression that we know what we are talking about.

Do you know what is THIS? This aware EXPERIENCING where no ‘I’ can be found?

Regards

Daniel