The Gate

I can imagine "experiencing" the One Self, but would that render it knowable?

Good question. Indeed, even trying to explain awareness from a biological point of view looks like guess work. Had to ask though. Awareness is rather tricky and many get stuck at this level, me included. So as long as you don`t identify with it everything is peachy.

Ok, what I want you to do now is take a few minutes and do a short scan through everything you thought that represents your "self" - your relationships, possessions, thoughts, body, emotions, feelings, desires, etc. - everywhere you feel there might be something "personal" left, some place where there might still be a "self". Imagine your direct experience is like an antivirus going through infected and corrupt files trying to find the vulnerability. Burn the house down! :)

And then tell me, are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Thoughts arise regarding the illusion of self. Self is an illusion. Self is not an illusion. Both thoughts. Self is an illusion seems the more true thought, but that too is just a thought. The one who would be upset to lose senses, relationships, abilities, possessions, memories, emotions and thoughts would be the same one who has them now. I have things. I don't have things. They don't make a self. The me before my work experience, the same me as after it. I can't find this me , can't define it, can't name it. THE ME THINKS IT ALWAYS FELT LIKE THIS ME. Did it? When it was younger, the one who was depressed, the same me felt "now I'm not depressed." The one feeling debilitating depression and the one feeling overflowing love was the same me. The feelings felt different, but not the one having the feelings. I may be identifying with awareness.

And then tell me, are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

This is only true answer I can find: I don't know. I don't know if there are doubts. I don't know why I don't know. Clarity is not arising now. I hope I haven't disappointed or annoyed you. Who hopes that? I don't know who. So just hope, then, and just not knowing. No who.

Problem is you use your thinking a lot instead of just looking, instead of using direct experience only. We`ve been through all the things one identify with and you said you don`t see any identification and I did believe you in all that. There`s a glitch somewhere and you go back to thinking and that recreates the doubts all over again. You also seem to do the exercises here pretty seldom (you answer like once a week) and that might be the answer. If you spend an hour doing direct seeing and 150+ thinking and overthinking and doubting everything it`s like a drop in the ocean. Not much changes. At one point a shift in perception happens and 'seeing' becomes the norm and thinking takes second place. You might not give it enough of your time for that shift to happen. (I`m not saying that`s the case, it`s just a possibility)
As to being in the mind mostly, even in this last reply of yours it`s mostly about 'me thinks', 'me has', 'me doubts', etc. It looks like the thinking and the mind still hold a strong grip over you.

Here`s another perspective of somebody who`s perception is mostly direct seeing... You experience thoughts of doubt. Stop. Ask yourself 'who has doubts?' Then you clear your head and look. Is there something there? Is there an actual 'person' experiencing 'doubt'? No. Then you take the concept of 'doubt' and look into it. What is 'doubt' anyway? Nothing. It`s just an empty label that leads to nowhere. Nothing "IS" in this precise moment, no 'me', no 'doubts', no nothing.

Anyway I don`t want to clutter you with too much info. Let`s get back at the awareness

I may be identifying with awareness.

'I may' looks like thinking. Drop the 'I may' and look into it. Do you identify with it or not?
If it`s a tough one try to break it into little pieces. What is awareness? Where does it come from? What is it made of?
Remember I said that it might be just a bodily function. That because me too I had trouble with it and my answer was to just try to break it anatomically and that worked for me. Poof. Awareness was gone. No need to identify with any more.
That was my way though so you might need to find your own. But you do have to do something about it. Just looking at it as to a hedgehog not knowing where to grab it from and trying to lucky guess whether it`s that or the other won`t work.

This is only true answer I can find: I don't know. I don't know if there are doubts. I don't know why I don't know. Clarity is not arising now. I hope I haven't disappointed or annoyed you. Who hopes that? I don't know who. So just hope, then, and just not knowing. No who.

'Don`t know' it`s not a bad answer. But in this case - the doubts - you do have a tool to work with. Hammer it with direct experience. Then do the same on everything else that clutters your clarity.

And don`t worry about me. There is nobody here to be disappointed or annoyed. I`m here to help. I had clients who made it and clients who didn`t. I obviously prefer that people make it :) But I can only point the way. At one point a shift must happen and seeing to take over the thinking.

Problem is you use your thinking a lot instead of just looking, instead of using direct experience only.

Yes, but not exclusively. I do have direct experience as well.
And yes, I will respond to your posts more quickly, that could be relevant.
The adjunct pointer of questioning "who has doubts?" is helpful.

Do you identify with it or not?

I identify with awareness, sometimes. When I apply thought, no, when thoughts occur on this subject, I think I am awareness. Then that everyone is that same awareness. Sometimes, there is no self, sometimes there is self as awareness, sometimes there is Me with history and choices and personality flaws.

Awareness as a bodily function--like digesting food or pumping blood to the brain--I can see that. I don't think I am those functions, so why do I think I am the function of awareness? Are you sure that I /you are not?
Sure without doubt? Am I hanging onto identifying as awareness because the alternative is no self?

I will hammer away with more DE. Bye for now.

I identify with awareness, sometimes. When I apply thought, no, when thoughts occur on this subject, I think I am awareness. Then that everyone is that same awareness. Sometimes, there is no self, sometimes there is self as awareness, sometimes there is Me with history and choices and personality flaws.

The initial pull to identify with awareness, or body, or thoughts, will not go away. In time though, seeing it as just a programmed habit will get easier and faster. Seeing through the illusion of the self will not make the self completely go away but it will make it look rather comical, for lack of a better comparison.

Are you sure that I /you are not?
Sure without doubt? Am I hanging onto identifying as awareness because the alternative is no self?

I`m a bit weary as to answer these. First of all, when you see through the lie of the "self" there is no question arising as to am I sure or if I still have doubts. When these questions arise it`s a pretty strong hint that one has not seen through the illusion of the "self". It`s the mind that needs to be sure and happy that it achieved something like that.
Does that make sense? When you see it, the questions simply stop. It`s done.
Second of all, I want you to find out for yourself. Second hand descriptions won`t take you there.

Awareness as a bodily function--like digesting food or pumping blood to the brain--I can see that. I don't think I am those functions, so why do I think I am the function of awareness?

Because the continuous stream of information sent from the senses (touching, sight, smell, etc.) create the illusion of something always present - this awareness of everything inside and outside of you that never dies. If you want to test this theory ask yourself where is awareness when you`re asleep? Nowhere.
So this technique works to explain this "presentness".

However I think I might have something that can help you not just logically understand this theory but experience it yourself.
You said you`re teaching yoga and so I presume you`re not a stranger to meditation.
What I did in order to fully stop seeing awareness as a level of "self" was to meditate on it.
I picked a time when it was quiet and dark, the reason being was to stop senses from filling my head with information. I relaxed both my body and mind. Then step by step I managed to reduce/stop the flow of info to the brain (eyes closed, no noises, etc). Without the continuous stream of information, awareness started to lose it`s grip on me. It`s 'texture' became less solid. Instead of a fixed point behind my eyes it started to feel more like a wave, like a dance of particles. I started to feel like I was floating through a never ending dark cosmic ocean. The point became smaller and smaller until it disappeared. No more awareness. The feeling of drifting through darkness lasted for a few more seconds and that is how the shift happened to me. The sensation of being one with the universe and not existing even as an individual point was incredibly liberating and beautiful. It might be a bit scary at start to let go but it`s really worth it.
This meditation made me SEE what I already knew through logical reasoning that awareness is a construct.
Maybe meditation can help you too? It`s good to try all sorts of techniques and see which one works best.

Ok. I just reread your mediation instructions. I'm going to start it now.

Also, as I just reread a few of our last exchanges, "no self" seemed normal, ordinary. It was like, yeah, no self, no doubts there. And then thoughts clamped down and words started to attempt to nail specifics onto no doubt and the thoughts clouded that first natural comfortable blank. It's like no self flashes me and then disappears laughing.

Ok, off to meditate now, I'll try not to try too hard:}

It's like no self flashes me and then disappears laughing.

:)) I think I`m stealing this one.

Sure, feel free (oh yeah, you already do).

I haven't meditated since Wed., when I wrote you last. I've thought about it and intended it repeatedly, but I haven't done it. Just reporting that, because it is true. I feel like I should write now that I will try harder and force myself to do it. Should I force myself, since there is no forcer to force? Should I try to force myself to do it and then see if it happens because of I made some mad commitment, and then realize if I did it, it was done that I wasn't that doer? I know, I'm thinking too much.

In direct experience, this very moment, shades of light, sounds and the metallic hum of quiet, tension/release and cursor, flickering

I haven't meditated since Wed., when I wrote you last. I've thought about it and intended it repeatedly, but I haven't done it.

You can`t see me right not but I`m shaking my head in disapproval. Where is this world going to? People don`t do what they are asked! When I was young I was so much more respectful and committed. People nowadays...

Going back to serious now, meditation was just a suggestion and frankly I`m not sure you need it. You speak like somebody who already 'seen' what had to be seen - and what has been seen cannot be unseen :)) Now question is how to make you see that you see. See?

So you told me that you (might) still be identifying with awareness. Let`s take a hammer and smash that little bitch into little pieces. What is awareness anyway? Let`s leave the label behind. (That might be a problem as well as it keeps the search in the realm of the mind)... What exactly is it? What is it made of? What makes you sense/feel like there is still a 'you' in it? Look into it and keep it simple. You`re just a few steps away.

ps: And even if, let`s say, there really is such a thing as awareness. Who cares anyway? Could it be that awareness simply is, independent of a 'you' to call it its own.
Awareness is, you are not.

What exactly is it? What is it made of? What makes you sense/feel like there is still a 'you' in it?

Awareness is Nothing. It's made of Nothing. Absence. Once there is Something, it is an object of awareness, not awareness itself. Awareness is blank space. Am I blank space? I think I'm blank space. That feels exciting. Back to your question: what makes me feel that there is a me in awareness. 1st--I think I've read it a lot, and convinced my mind of it through repetition. 2nd-- I have a strong memory of once looking into the eyes of an irate person, who was frantic and losing his temper. I was thinking and silently saying to myself, or my eyes were speaking to his eyes wordlessly, "You can't touch me." I had such a confidence in that moment, that I was untouchable. It was almost like his rage was a joke to me. And the idea that "I" was invulnerable was like a wonderful fact and ancient Truth that I'd forgotten I'd always had and delighted in remembering. It's completely beside the point that over the following five years he just about decimated "me" and all I'd ever known of myself. But that's the story of me, and I should probably thank him for the destruction, without which I may not be capable of seeing the illusion of self. Pretty simple to smash that little bitch. Thanks you!

When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?

When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?

Nothing. Old, conditioned patterns of thought like "I'm too fat." Thoughts, feelings, senses passing through nothing. Dreams at night of an I that thought it was real.

Oh come on, you`re just big boned!

All right, I have 6 last questions for you. They encompass pretty much everything we talked about so if there`s anything we skipped, now it will come around.
Spend as much time as you need and if any other questions come to mind let me know.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you seeit now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Ok. I just read the questions. I will reread them a few more times and see what comes up.

And then I will report back, maybe one or two at time.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is no separate self, me, I anywhere in any way shape or form. There never was. Bodies occur, like bugs and mountains and rocks and cups of coffee and computers and planets and cars. A thought arises that says the illusory self, the phantom, clings in and around This body. And now poof--it's vaporized again. Not the body, darn it, but the clarity that the separate self is an illusion, story, concept. It's gone but it's still here, that fable. I can see thoughts that say, oh this is just your latest pipe dream, another fairytale you are indulging in to avoid reality. I can see that as merely a passing thought, not that it is something I made or chose, just an occurrence of an idea. And then more ideas intrude and doubts arise. Doubts and clarity coexist.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

No details arise now. The illusory self is like a guy that showed up recently in a lucid dream. I was dreaming and I knew it, and this scary guy came up to me with no teeth and asked me for the keys to my car. I thought not to trust him, but then I thought he's in my dream, if he's not trustworthy that's how I dreamed him up. So I plastered a fake smile on my face to not hurt his feelings, not wanting to offend this criminal I had created to scare me. I don't expect that to make sense, but I hope you get it.

This separate me starts when I notice anything and then translate what I notice into words, ideas, or explanations. This translation/labeling/interpreting is the birth of the separate self.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

It doesn't feel like much to see this right this second. Pretty neutral. Sometimes, I feel some excitement like I know secret, but then the secret becomes a separator, mine not yours, and then self is there sticking her tongue out at me, saying "nice try sucker."
But now, unlike before we started this communication, theres more room for that nasty self to play peek a boo. It's more like ok you fooled me again , true, but that doesn't make you real.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I'm not sure. There we're different moments during the dialogue. Recently, staring at the cursor pulsing on the screen I saw me/nothing, kind of. Or, when I'd start to consider your latest questions (including prior to these last six) I'd start out feeling jumbled and approaching frustration and then a glimpse would shine through. Also, from seeing awareness as nothing to that morphing into the self as blank space. But just now this competing idea arises: the difference between self and Self. Oh shit. that. Well nothing is still nothing.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There's more clarity here. Happenings happen. Choices are just descriptions of what's happening that arise in the mind at the happening. Intention is patterns mirroring each other. How does it work? No idea! I'm just glad that it does. What am I responsible for? Nothing. nothing nothing nothing! cultural conditioning does not like that sound of that. Even the crap I ate today, not responsible. Fat Happens! That idea will get pushed out again by its competition and if I severely admonish "myself" for it, that too will just be happening.

6) Anything to add?

Well just that after seeing the illusion of the separate self, I had such a terrifying dream about an ongoing betrayal. I was filled with so much longing in the dream. Vast, vast desperate maiming desire (that has now lingered at least 2 days after the dream). I think in some way my separate self was clinging onto the hope of life. She was going for my jugular. I guess I was disappointed that seeing through her didn't reach into my dream state. It's like she's saying "I may not be real, but I'm not giving up." Also, the man in my dream, my former husband, it's like he's always personified my phantom self. Oddly, even before I ever met him. It was me I was losing when he left, it was me I'm so afraid to let go of, the me I thought he made me.

Goodbye to no one.