the house of me

[blackh]

Vikas,

Yes, that's all good. I agree.


Steve

[shivite]

thanks Steve.

to recap,
I have looked and observed that I have no control over thoughts. they appear.
I have looked and observed that there is no free will within me to make choices.

this will be a bit of a ramble.
we have landed at "personality" (patterns of reactions). Am I using this as a crutch, as in, this is the notion of "self" i am clinging on to. I think i was born with a personality which i had no control over. did my personality change over time? is understanding 'personality' what people refer to as self-realization? I don't have control over personality but can I "improve" it? the last sentence implies I can do something about my personality. if that is doable, then it suggests some level of control? am i elevating 'patterns of reactions' into a thing that can change/evolve?

people break habits, like smoking. how?

Are these topics outside the purview of LU's mission?

[shivite]

in the context of the two observations (thoughts appear, no free will to choose), what is responsibility? response + ability. who is responsible? can I be responsible? can i become responsible? is evil, just a pattern of reaction that one can not change? About 1.5 years back, overnight, i became a vegetarian after 40 years of eating and loving meat. did my 'pattern of reactions' evolve to a point that i adopted being a vegetarian. was that a responsible act?

what is your sense of the stage I am at in the journey towards realizing that there is no self.

lots of questions but want to pause and understand the scope/purview of our dialogue - LU's mission.

[blackh]

Vikas,

this will be a bit of a ramble.

That's a good thing. :)

I have looked and observed that I have no control over thoughts. they appear.
I have looked and observed that there is no free will within me to make choices.
...
what is your sense of the stage I am at in the journey towards realizing that there is no self.

Seeing that there is no control over thoughts and that there is no free will is NOT a small thing. You can imagine that most people have a lot of difficulty with this, as we're usually working with deeply held beliefs. That means you are quite advanced in the process.

Am I using this as a crutch, as in, this is the notion of "self" i am clinging on to.

I'm not sure. Your view of self is a little atypical so I haven't quite worked you out yet. But that's not surprising: Since self is not real, it's vaguely defined and different in everyone. That makes it a bit tricky to deal with. If it were real, then it would be like an internal organ: you could study it in a medical text book because everyone would be the same.

I think i was born with a personality which i had no control over. did my personality change over time?

To be clear, I'm defining personality as the body and mind's pattern of reaction to circumstances.

You have no control over the personality because the you that has control is an illusion generated by a collaboration between the body and the mind. Certainly the personality changes over time. Have you noticed that you feel like the same "you" as you did when you were a child? In that time, the personality would have changed significantly - though some traits will be the same. How can you be something that has changed so much, yet feel essentially the same?

is understanding 'personality' what people refer to as self-realization?

No. Thoughts say things about the personality, and this can influence is structure, causing future reactions to be different. This is what people sometimes refer to as "therapy" and it's definitely not self-realization.

Self-realization (though we prefer to say "seeing through the illusion of self") is where it is seen viscerally (not just intellectually) that the self that was assumed to be at the centre of the personality has been a fiction all along. Personality is still needed to relate with other people, so it remains, but those parts of it that were based on the false assumption of self will slowly crumble over months and years. An obvious example of this is the reaction to insults.

When this is seen, experience tends to have a subtly different look to it, but there is huge variation in how it manifests for different people. I do need to talk to you about your expectations soon, as this is quite important.

I don't have control over personality but can I "improve" it? the last sentence implies I can do something about my personality. if that is doable, then it suggests some level of control? am i elevating 'patterns of reactions' into a thing that can change/evolve?

people break habits, like smoking. how?

As I said, thoughts about the personality can influence the personality. If a thought arises saying, "I am doing this," does that mean that you are doing this? What we do here is to actually look for this "I" and see what's there.

Are these topics outside the purview of LU's mission?

No, I think they're quite relevant.

in the context of the two observations (thoughts appear, no free will to choose), what is responsibility? response + ability. who is responsible? can I be responsible? can i become responsible? is evil, just a pattern of reaction that one can not change?

It's probably better for you to answer these questions yourself.

About 1.5 years back, overnight, i became a vegetarian after 40 years of eating and loving meat. did my 'pattern of reactions' evolve to a point that i adopted being a vegetarian. was that a responsible act?

That's a good question. Of course I don't know what's going on for you, but I have had exactly the same experience.

Now as a fellow vegetarian you will know that people always ask, "Why did you become a vegetarian?" And, the next thing that happens is that some words come out of your mouth. But what do you think? Are those words true? Do you have any idea what the real reason is?

lots of questions but want to pause and understand the scope/purview of our dialogue - LU's mission.

I do like to talk about the overall terrain,so happy to answer these questions.


Steve

[shivite]

hi steve ... thanks for the responses. much appreciate indulging the rambling. been a busy day at work/home so i need a day to respond properly.

totally agree on the vegetarian bit. i struggle with the answer. mostly because i don't want to sound judgmental. i mumble something like - its personal, or good for health and environment - but the real reason (for me) was that I can't imagine being part of the ecosystem that had to kill a living thing just to satisfy my desires. but since i have been conversing with you, I now to wonder whether that is a story my thoughts invented to create a strong enough deterrent? the aversion to meat was so strong that my mind started showing pictures of live animals whenever there was meat on my plate.

was the choice to not eat meat made (by something) and then my mind/thoughts worked in tandem to convince me?

[blackh]

Vikas,

was the choice to not eat meat made (by something) and then my mind/thoughts worked in tandem to convince me?

I want to encourage you to ask yourself these questions, and to answer them by looking at how decisions are made day-to-day if at all possible. Also, don't assume that the body followed thoughts. Consider that it could be the other way around.

I argued before that thought stories are all fiction. Perhaps motivation for actions is a useful example of this.

This is why looking is so important. If you observe thought content, you can only see fiction. Looking gives you direct access to reality.

When I hear back from you next, I'll give you some more things to look at. Let me know if there's a specific place where you think a belief in "I" might be lurking. I'm happy to carry on looking at the personality of that's helpful.

I wanted to ask about expectations, because they're important in this process. You said you want to feel something beyond theory. That is exactly the goal of LU so we probably can deliver on that expectation. But I just wanted to ask what other expectations you might have. Give this some thought because sometimes expectations can be subtle. The experience of seeing through the illusion of self is almost certain to be not what you expect, so it's important to keep an open mind, or you might miss something important.


Steve

[shivite]

Steve ... there is much to write/share with you. it may take a day or so, am tied up right now, but I am thinking/pondering about this all the time in the background. I feel i need to study our entire conversation up to this point, in detail and absorb it some more. I will write back about expectations, have been giving it some exploration.

in the meantime, wanted to share with you that I think I had an "aha" moment last night. this was when i was writing to you about my reason for becoming a vegetarian. I almost stopped at saying "I became a vegetarian because i don't want to see animals die". And leave it at that. but something kept nudging me, that that was not the absolute truth. A clarity emerged that the choice to give up meat was inevitable and that my mind/thoughts had constructed a palatable :) story for me. this was very clear last night as i was going to bed and i felt enthusiastic. I was amazed at how simple the deception was and the truth was in front of me all along. it was almost funny (not sure if that is the right word, but its close).

this morning, i remember the clarity of last night; but i don't feel as excited as i did last night ... hard to describe. nevertheless, i think the moment last night was progress ...

will write more soon.

[shivite]

hi Steve

Your view of self is a little atypical.

I first reached that point of view, a few months back, thru an analytical process. I peeled off the layers, so to speak, such as the body/looks/education/sense of stature at work/etc; and all that was left at the core was “reactions”. And things have cleared up for me in the course of this conversation.

To be clear, I'm defining personality as the body and mind's pattern of reaction to circumstances.

I agree with the definition. Not to use wordplay, but for me, this is the “self” I am left with and I comfortable with it. I don’t believe the all controlling, egocentric “I” has had a strong foothold in my mind for some time.

Yet - I have a desire to improve the “reactions”. To use your words, “collections of mechanisms and influences”; I want to know if there is a way to influence them. please note: I am not saying whether “I” or the “self” have control. I’m asking if there a way to improve the reactions. For example: If I didn’t want to get angry, can it be done? Or let me break it down – I think there is no control over the emotion/feeling of anger; but can the words/actions that follow be improved?

So you go on to say … “thoughts say things about the personality, and this can influence its structure, causing future reactions to be different”;

My question will be: what influences the creation of those thoughts that can then cause future reactions to be different. but thoughts create stories, so what is the "root" that caused the thoughts to say things, then eventually caused future reactions to be different.

When I hear back from you next, I'll give you some more things to look at. Let me know if there's a specific place where you think a belief in "I" might be lurking. I'm happy to carry on looking at the personality of that's helpful.

Yes this is the right next step. “Some more things to look at” is probably better than looking more at personality.

But I just wanted to ask what other expectations you might have.

Maybe you can frame the parameters of expectations – is it thru this conversation till it ends, or is it beyond? Or give examples? What could I miss, what are some things other people miss?
The simple answer is that coming into this conversation, I had little expectations. The conversations have been great and I have learnt a lot – how to look, observe. I have observed thoughts as stories and no free will. I had a 30 sec “feeling” the other night, which I wrote to you about; I guess I’d like to feel that all the time. Also, as they say in the LU fb group, passing the gate is the first step. I would like to know, if possible , the path beyond and how to get there …

[blackh]

Vikas,

Your explanation of your analytical process has cleared up my confusion. :)

As for expectations, I'm happy with what you said. It's just that some people think they will be able to levitate and shoot laser beams out of their eyes. The realisation we're after is almost always subtle (though some people find it a shock). It really is just the dropping of a belief.

Yet - I have a desire to improve the “reactions”. To use your words, “collections of mechanisms and influences”; I want to know if there is a way to influence them.

Changing the personality isn't the focus of this guiding but it is something you can look into afterwards in various "further investigation" paths. The question that's important now is, WHAT has a desire to improve the reactions? Can you answer that question? If you can't, then have a good look and describe the actual experience of having that desire.

A clarity emerged that the choice to give up meat was inevitable and that my mind/thoughts had constructed a palatable :) story for me. this was very clear last night as i was going to bed and i felt enthusiastic. I was amazed at how simple the deception was and the truth was in front of me all along. it was almost funny (not sure if that is the right word, but its close).

this morning, i remember the clarity of last night; but i don't feel as excited as i did last night ... hard to describe. nevertheless, i think the moment last night was progress

Great! There's what's really happening, and then there's a story that thought tells about it, and usually they don't have a lot in common.

These are the things that will cumulatively allow you to see no self in a way that's deeper than theory. Notice that there was the actual experience of the insight but that all that remains of it now is a memory. But, it has made a change. This process takes place in the ordinary mind. We are not trying to change anything mystical and unreachable. But it happens in a place that's a little deeper than thought, where the beliefs live. This is why looking is absolutely necessary.

Now, we need to really look for this self, so here's an exercise for you. Please look at the totality of experience, and make a compete list of all the different "kinds" of experience. For example, sight is a different kind of experience to smell, so just write down...

• sight
• smell
• thoughts
• ...

Now this list will be quite short (less than 10 things most likely, depending on how you categorise things) and most of the items will just be one or two words.

I want you to find out whether there is a observable self in any part of experience, so we need to make sure you have an exhaustive list so we can check every room in the house of me, so to speak.

Make sure you use looking to find out what's there.

If you miss anything, I will tell you where to look.


Steve

[shivite]

hi Steve

The question that's important now is, WHAT has a desire to improve the reactions? Can you answer that question? If you can't, then have a good look and describe the actual experience of having that desire.

It seems pertinent to this question, so first I want to share a couple of changes that I have observed over the last year (it is hard to pinpoint a precise timeline). As I have shared I became vegetarian, seemingly inexplicably, about 1.5 years back.
Here are 2 examples of subtle changes that are observable –
• Ambition.
Pursuit of the next ‘thing’ to achieve was inculcated as a child. This manifested in - getting an education, getting higher education, getting a job, getting a promotion, getting the next promotion. In the dog-eat-dog world that is corporate life, I too was caught up in getting to the next level. And I liked it. But now, the ambition to get to the next level has subsided. I used to like my ambition but now I am content with the lack of it.
• Sharing true feelings
Before, people would ask me for advice and I would hesitate to say what I truly felt. I had this strong sense that I did not want to “interfere” with other people’s lives/decisions. That I am better off maintaining a distance. But, I now I seem to share my feelings sometimes even proactively. I used to like the “me” that had maintained a distance but the “sharing” me seems to bring more joy. And people reciprocate.

Describing these two changes seemed pertinent to answering the second part of your question: “describe the actual experience of having that desire”. One thing is for sure, when I have these desires/thoughts, there is a more prominent “you” than an “I”. As in, the thought is more like – “you should do this” as opposed to “I should do this”. Its as if, another voice is telling me to do this. I seem to give more credibility and respect to the “you” thought in comparison to the “I” thought. Its as if the “you” is trying to convince the “I”.

To answer the first part, that is, the “WHAT” has a desire to improve the reactions. I think the description that follows is a combination of my knowledge of science/what I have read and what I observed.

So I looked at a rock, tree, dog, and humans (me).

Rock: it exists. It just lies where it is. its molecular structure does not change. The combination of elements (iron, sulphur, whatever) make it what it is and define its behavior. The rock does not change till an external force (hammer, weather) acts on it.

tree: at its core, it seems to seek “survival”. The branches/leaves try to find any means to find sunlight and the roots try to find water. It seems to want to “replicate” itself and hence creates seeds or flowers that can attract flies/etc that will lead to pollination elsewhere. If the tree does not get its basic needs (sunlight, water) then it withers and dies. The tree seems to have a fixed amount of life to live (as in time). The nurturing (sunlight, water) it receives has an effect on the longevity.

Dog: besides instincts like “survival”, “replication”; the dog wants “love/validation”. Just like the tree, the dog will wither if this need is not met.

Humans (me): wants “knowledge”. To know things, to understand things. Wants to have a “purpose” in life or a “meaning” to strive for.

So to answer your “what” has a desire” question. Every combination of elements/molecules comes with a set of “needs” or “predispositions”. In my case, I think, “what” is the unique combination of my molecular structure that has a ‘predisposition’ to fulfill its core needs like “acquiring knowledge”, “finding purpose”.

Please look at the totality of experience, and make a complete list of all the different "kinds" of experience. For example, sight is a different kind of experience to smell, so just write down...

• Sight
• Smell
• Taste
• Sound
• Touch

• breathing

• Thoughts
• Emotions (anger, happy, etc)
• Dreams that one can remember

• Insight
• The voice/thought that addresses me as “you”
• Experience while being drunk or on pain killers
• Vibrations … such as, Feeling music (as opposed to listening to sounds)

I want you to find out whether there is a observable self in any part of experience, so we need to make sure you have an exhaustive list so we can check every room in the house of me, so to speak.

Still need to do this.

[blackh]

Vikas,

So to answer your “what” has a desire” question. Every combination of elements/molecules comes with a set of “needs” or “predispositions”. In my case, I think, “what” is the unique combination of my molecular structure that has a ‘predisposition’ to fulfill its core needs like “acquiring knowledge”, “finding purpose”.

I certainly agree with that: trees seek light and humans have desires. But is it a desire, or is it your desire?

Great work on your list. I just want to see if we can simplify it a little, with your agreement...

Can we group these as "senses"?

• Sight
• Smell
• Taste
• Sound
• Touch
• breathing
• Vibrations … such as, Feeling music (as opposed to listening to sounds)

Actually I think there are about a dozen more of these (hunger, prioprioception, heat, weight, balance, pain...) but that's not important for our purposes.

Can we group these together as "thoughts/emotions"?

• Thoughts
• Emotions (anger, happy, etc)
• Dreams that one can remember
• Insight <-- see below
• The voice/thought that addresses me as “you”

Note: Emotions also have a sensation component. Memories are also thoughts. Do you agree?

Now, this one alters thoughts/emotions and affects senses:

• Experience while being drunk or on pain killers

...but since we're trying to find "I", would it be reasonable to say that "I" is not there and so we can leave this one out of the list?

Questions:
Can you say that sensations are real, thoughts/emotions are real, but the content of thoughts/emotions is a narration/story about things - some real, some not real - but that the story itself is fiction?
As for, insight, is what it says real in a way that other thoughts aren't?
Can "I" be sensed (seen, smelled, tasted, touched...)?

Now, there are two more places I want you to look:

• Awareness - There must be an awareness of experience, or it is equivalent to nothing existing. Is there a "you" in the observer? Try this: Look at a scene, perhaps a view out the window. Now turn attention to the seer/whatever is experiencing. What do you find there? Is there a "I" there, or any evidence or sign from which you can infer the existence of a hidden "I"?
• The soul - I am using this term loosely. If you look inside yourself, into the depths of your being, what do you actually see there?

And finally:
Does "I" exist anywhere other than in thought content?
Is there anywhere we have missed?

There's a lot here, so it might take you a while. Tell me how you go, and make sure you pull me up wherever I have said something you don't agree with.


Steve

[shivite]

Steve

I certainly agree with that: trees seek light and humans have desires. But is it a desire, or is it your desire?

I stopped using the word desire. this might be a better explanation. everything is a combination of "elements". lets call this a "construct". rock/dog/plant/humans have a unique "construct". furthermore every human has a unique "construct". i don't know what all goes into building the "construct" but it is unique in each human. it is this construct that "predisposes" the human to be attracted to knowledge, liking sweet things, be fearful, etc. this construct and the predisposition just exists and the "I" don't control it.
"but is it a desire, or is your desire?"
it is a predisposition and it manifests itself in the body it occupies. it is not "my" desire as in I did not create it consciously and i can't control it.

[shivite]

a question.

did my comment about the "you" thought make sense, ring a bell. does it exist in your experience? what is it? how doe you describe it?

thanks

[shivite]

Can we group these as "senses"?
Sight
Smell
Taste
Sound
Touch
breathing
Vibrations … such as, Feeling music (as opposed to listening to sounds)

yes

Can we group these together as "thoughts/emotions"?
Thoughts
Emotions (anger, happy, etc)
Dreams that one can remember
Insight <-- see below
The voice/thought that addresses me as “you”

yes

Note: Emotions also have a sensation component. Memories are also thoughts. Do you agree?

yes

Now, this one alters thoughts/emotions and affects senses:
Experience while being drunk or on pain killers
...but since we're trying to find "I", would it be reasonable to say that "I" is not there and so we can leave this one out of the list?

yes

[blackh]

Vikas,

"but is it a desire, or is your desire?"
it is a predisposition and it manifests itself in the body it occupies. it is not "my" desire as in I did not create it consciously and i can't control it.

OK - great. "I" not found. We just need to make sure you look everywhere for this "I", so keep going with the investigation into experience.

I stopped using the word desire. this might be a better explanation. everything is a combination of "elements". lets call this a "construct". rock/dog/plant/humans have a unique "construct". furthermore every human has a unique "construct". i don't know what all goes into building the "construct" but it is unique in each human. it is this construct that "predisposes" the human to be attracted to knowledge, liking sweet things, be fearful, etc. this construct and the predisposition just exists and the "I" don't control it.
...
did my comment about the "you" thought make sense, ring a bell. does it exist in your experience? what is it? how doe you describe it?

I'm assuming you're talking about the quote above. This is what I was getting at when I asked you to tell me what was really there when you looked at a cup. It went something like this:

• What's there?
• Matter, reflecting light
• How do you know there's matter there?
• A thought confirms it.

So, let's see if we can go deeper with this one. You're saying that there's a construct of elements underlying things and determining their nature. Nothing wrong with that idea. The words "matter" and "elements" are, of course words, so they point to concepts. "Matter" and "elements" are concepts, and they point to something real. So what about the third step, the reality? What's the essential nature of objects?

So, take a look at something - a cup, your body, a tree, or anything. The reality of the object is undeniable. But... what's actually there? What do you KNOW about it that doesn't require a concept (though to describe it you will need concepts)?


Steve