the way out

[bth]

Hi Eugen,

Can you see something that isnt there?

Look at the imaginairy tennisbal...

Was it there in your DE?

Now think of Santa.

Is Santa real? Do you for one moment question whether Santa exist except as in thought.
Can Santa see through a illusion?


Barry


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[jerry373]

Hi Barry,

No to all questions.

Eugen

[bth]

Hi Eugen,

Sometimes these shifts are subtle. And life goes on just like it has. In the same way that you were told that Santa was'nt real. Sensations, taste, smell, sound will be happening, thoughts will happen. Just a shift in perception.

Is there a you? Is there a self?

Barry

[jerry373]

Hi Barry,

Sometimes these shifts are subtle. And life goes on just like it has. In the same way that you were told that Santa was'nt real. Sensations, taste, smell, sound will be happening, thoughts will happen. Just a shift in perception.

Talking about shifts. I sometimes notice that in case of DE of thoughts I seem to have moments when I'm completely absorbed and there is no observer. But I notice this only after the event. This applies to other activities as well where if I get absorbed there is no sense of doer. At some point I realized this is the main difference between now and when I was a child in the sense that than it would happen more often.

Is there a you? Is there a self?

This morning I was meditating and checking if there needs to be an "I" for anything to be happening in DE. Sensations in the body were there without the need of an "I". The same for sounds or seeing. It's a bit more difficult with thoughts.

It seems the sense of self comes when attentions shifts to whatever is happening in DE and than the "I" attaches to it. I want to say consciousness shifts attention but I have no DE of consciousness. I don't even know who is aware and where this aliveness feeling is.

Thanks for your patience!
Eugen

[bth]

Hi Eugen,

Keep confirming while looking at DE.

At some point I realized this is the main difference between now and when I was a child in the sense that than it would happen more often.

Its not about expecting what is going to happen. Do you expect to get to a specific state... its merely to see what is real and what not.

It's a bit more difficult with thoughts.

It seems the sense of self comes when attentions shifts to whatever is happening in DE and than the "I" attaches to it. I want to say consciousness shifts attention but I have no DE of consciousness. I don't even know who is aware and where this aliveness feeling is.

An I cannot attaches itself to something that isnt there. There is nothing to be attached to.

Isnt attention and looking also happening.. Can you exactly pinpoint when you decide to look, when to shift your attention If there is no you to shift the attention, looking....?

In the same way with regards to thoughts. I dont know what my next thought will be. Do you? They appaer. How can there be anyowner to thougths...... You say the world difficult isnt that another thought about thought.

Plz confirm in your inquiry.. meditation is oke as well.

Might also be a good idea for you to walk outside a little, maybe in nature or to look at animals. And look with curiosity if there is any owner needed for life to happen.

Barry

[bth]

btw, keep seeing. You got some momentum going on!

Barry

[jerry373]

Hi Barry,

At some point I realized this is the main difference between now and when I was a child in the sense that than it would happen more often.

Its not about expecting what is going to happen. Do you expect to get to a specific state... its merely to see what is real and what not.

Thanks for reminding me that. I've made a list today with all my "expectations" and made a resolution to let go of them.

An I cannot attaches itself to something that isnt there. There is nothing to be attached to.

Isnt attention and looking also happening.. Can you exactly pinpoint when you decide to look, when to shift your attention If there is no you to shift the attention, looking....?

Yes. I cannot control shifting attention (looking, sound, etc), decide when to look or where to look. It just happens by itself.

In the same way with regards to thoughts. I dont know what my next thought will be. Do you? They appaer. How can there be anyowner to thougths...... You say the world difficult isnt that another thought about thought.

Yes. I've said this before. If I look closely there is the underlying belief that I'm the doer of the "intentional" thoughts. Even than I cannot pinpoint the moment they appear or disappear.

This morning I woke up in meditative state. There was a brief moment when all I was aware was the distinct tactile sensations of my body but there was no sense of body, no I. I think it was scary for a moment than I remembered that this is the body. I guess I moved and the sense of self came back.

Thanks,
Eugen

[bth]

hi Eugen,

Yes. I've said this before. If I look closely there is the underlying belief that I'm the doer of the "intentional" thoughts. Even than I cannot pinpoint the moment they appear or disappear.

How can you look closer to an underlying belief? If you open you eyes. Do you see the belief except as in thought...

Is there a you who chooses thought. Look closely. Think of a pen. When was the exact moment that you thought of a pen. What it the exact moment the thought of a pen disappears? Can a thought of a pen stick? Can you stick? Can any sensation, image, sound, thought stick? Its all happening by itself, without any owner.

This morning I woke up in meditative state.

You cannot wake up in a meditative state. There are sensations, sounds, smell, sights, covered with thought.

here was a brief moment when all I was aware was the distinct tactile sensations of my body but there was no sense of body, no I.

You cannot be aware. There is no you to be aware of.

Good. So the reality just was. Or just is. Does it really matter if this is covered up by thougths? Or are thoughts also a part of what is?

I guess I moved and the sense of self came back.

There is no sense of self. There is only the thought of the sense of self.

Do you see the story that you are creating in it all? Is the story real? Or it this just a story. Thoughts happening.

Barry

[bth]

And maybe for a moment. Imagine that your are not the doer of thoughts. How does this feel.. Any resistance? If so invite the resistance experience the resistance. Anything there to protect?

Ease and delight.

Barry

[jerry373]

Hi Barry,

Sorry for the delay. I just took some time to look at this a bit more.

Good. So the reality just was. Or just is. Does it really matter if this is covered up by thougths? Or are thoughts also a part of what is?

No. Thoughts are thoughts. Perceived objects (seen, felt) don't need a label to exist. A tree doesn't need a label to exist, i.e. to be real. Same with feelings. I don't own or do my feelings. They just appear in my awareness and then I attach ownership to them which is just another story.

There is no sense of self. There is only the thought of the sense of self.
Do you see the story that you are creating in it all? Is the story real? Or it this just a story. Thoughts happening.

When I look at thoughts they come and go, randomly and out of nowhere. Than some of them have this feeling of ownership or intent of thinking. This is just another label or thought on top of a sequence of thoughts. It seems to be an endless labeling process.

And maybe for a moment. Imagine that your are not the doer of thoughts. How does this feel.. Any resistance? If so invite the resistance experience the resistance. Anything there to protect?

Yes. I get a headache. The thought pointless comes up. Upon closer look, headache is just a label on some sensations in my head. Than the story of thinking and the story of relation between the thinking and the headache. It's the same kind of story for a thought thinking a thought.


Eugen

[bth]

Hi Eugen, Does anything need Clarification? Can you see the story of the me....

Thats only for you to tell [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES].

It can be sublte and for a reason they call it the cosmic joke.

Do you think you are awareness?
The doer? The Body? The mind?

Barry

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[jerry373]

Also, just realized the story. If I'm not doing all this (thoughts, being aware, moving, etc..) then nothing will happen. Nothing will get done.

I observe that even when i'm thinking (focused on the thoughts) the body still does his thing. If I'm in the middle of something that doesn't just stop it goes on on automatic. There is the underlying belief/story learned in school that some processes are learned and they go on automatic. There is also the feeling sometimes that i can see myself as a third person doing stuff on automatic :)

[bth]

Yes what i get out of this. Even if you would remove the label I me my things will keep running.

In the same way that focussing on thoughts is story happening.

Reality just is.

Anything changed for you?

Do you feel like you have more questions?


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[jerry373]

I don't know. I don't feel different. I'm just not so convinced there is a doer behind my actions. I don't know if I can call it a change of perception. I just realize that there are a lot of stories that go around or better said in my head. I have to sort of sustain the focus to see what is thought and what it reality.
There was no point of crossing as I would have imagined. I see those are just thoughts I've picked up on the way.
Still I ask my self if I'm just not convincing or learning a new belief.

[bth]

Hi Eugen,

Lets talk a little more. There is no self. What is your answer to this statement. Can you see a self in De?

Further, you say that you have to sutain focus. There is no one to focus. Is there a difference between thought and reality? There are thoughts, sensations, sights, sound, smell taste. There is just no owner to them.


Barry

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