a step into the unknown

[Trev]

Hi Fred

Let the fear speak to you. And let know what comes up.

I sat with the tightness in my chest today while meditating. It seemed to move up to my face and soften. The image that came to my mind was crying.

I also had a warmer presence around my back and the back of my head. Like a subtle body within or just behind my body. There was something about it that felt like a “self”, although when I explored it there was nothing there except a subtle sense of warmth or presence.

What if there had never been a 'you' to control 'your' life and keep 'yourself' safe? Would this happening of the moment not continue just the way it has always done, perhaps without the tension and the fear?

I presume it would. If there has never been a sense in control, the path would not be much difference. Although I presume that believing in a self does make some difference or there would be no point in letting go of that belief.

Instead of working (and thinking) your way into this present, let go, relax. It's not going anywhere and there's no 'you' that can be out of it. Just LOOK, like a newborn baby, again and again. It's really that simple, it's the opposite of effort.

I have been relaxing with it today, and have felt much more relaxed all round. Just noticing the present, what is happening, not looking for any judgement. It is a bit different in that there is probably less mind wandering – awareness less caught up in thoughts.

On a count of 3, raise your left or right hand. 1-2-3. What happens? A 'you' decides which hand to raise and then it goes up? Or the hand (whichever one it is) goes up, then a thought comments?

I do get a sense that the thoughts are not controlling the actions, and that thought does make some difference to how life seems through the day. Nothing dramatic happening. Just seeing things a bit different. No controlling entity can be found, although there is some sense or feeling that “I am here”, although, as we know, there is no evidence of anything other than awareness of the moment.

Perhaps I am waiting for something a bit more dramatic to happen and there to be an accompanying sense of “Aha” or some relief. A sense that something has changed.

Thanks for your questions.

Bye for now,
Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev
Thank you for your responses.

Although I presume that believing in a self does make some difference or there would be no point in letting go of that belief.

Can you make friends with both possible outcomes? Can you welcome either way, that letting go of the belief in self makes a difference, or that it makes no difference at all?

No controlling entity can be found, although there is some sense or feeling that “I am here”, although, as we know, there is no evidence of anything other than awareness of the moment.

OK, I hear you about that sense 'I am here'. Is there any personal aspect to that sense, any individuated aspect, or is it a sense of aliveness, vibrant, buzzing, like a kind of primal 'I am' without anything else?
Is that a proof of existence of a separate 'I'?

Perhaps I am waiting for something a bit more dramatic to happen and there to be an accompanying sense of “Aha” or some relief. A sense that something has changed.

Is that expectation any more than a thought 'there should be something more dramatic', coming up in THIS?
What does the word 'should' mean? Is it pointing to what's happening, right now?

Can that expectation be let go of? Drop it and see, simply, what is here, THIS. Can THIS be any different than THIS? Does it have an opposite? Have you ever been able to experience an alternative to THIS?

Thank you!

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred

Thanks for your post.

I have had quite a quiet sort of day. Just generally aiming to be in the present and look at whatever arises, without applying a lot of effort to do anything in particular. It feels fine, quite relaxing, a nice way to be. In some ways not much different to how I felt before we started this exchange, although I would say more mindful and present.

Can you make friends with both possible outcomes? Can you welcome either way, that letting go of the belief in self makes a difference, or that it makes no difference at all?

I am trying to let go of expectations. I may “get it” and feel just the same.

OK, I hear you about that sense 'I am here'. Is there any personal aspect to that sense, any individuated aspect, or is it a sense of aliveness, vibrant, buzzing, like a kind of primal 'I am' without anything else? Is that a proof of existence of a separate 'I'?

I think it is something like a deeply held assumption, and I am wondering if it just takes a bit of time for it to ease off. As if there is an expectation that there is a self “in there somewhere” and some evidence will pop up somewhere. My experience of this “assumption” in the present is a tingling in my chest and body, something like mild excitement. Looking at it now, it could even be anticipation of seeing that there is “no self”.

Can that expectation be let go of? Drop it and see, simply, what is here, THIS. Can THIS be any different than THIS? Does it have an opposite? Have you ever been able to experience an alternative to THIS?

I think as I am saying above, I am feeling fine today, although a bit nervous at the same time. I think there is some concern that not much is changing and I still have not “got it”, as in "seen" or "understood" that there is no self. It reminds me of our previous exchange around similar experiences of stopping believing, for me there may also be a parallel to “starting to understand”, to “get” something. I used to work in computing and I remember on one occasion someone showed me a programming structure. I could follow logically quite quickly, but at the same time I felt that I didn’t “get it”, as in really see how it made sense. I remember enjoying physics and some maths at school, and what I really liked was the times I really did “get it”. For example how differentiation of equations takes you from distance covered, to velocity, to acceleration, and how the changing shapes of the graphs illustrate this. At times it just fitted together in a way that gave me an inner sense of harmony. Like when the pieces fit in a jigsaw really well and you see that you aren’t having to force things to fit anymore, they just do, because you have got it right.

Not sure where this is going. I think I am looking for analogies that help me to stay positively with this process in a way that allows me to be open to a new understanding of how things are. Perhaps my test for believing there is no self, is when I get that sense that things fit together without effort, because they are just right that way.

Anyway, that is a diversion. I will keep with the practice – stay in the present, LOOK at what is there and notice what is not there. Reflect on the lack of evidence for the existence of a separate self.

Regards,
Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev,

I may “get it” and feel just the same.

What would 'get it'? ;-)
Keep coming back to THIS. Stop. Breathe. Look. In this moment, can you see a someone, a person that would get it?

I think it is something like a deeply held assumption, and I am wondering if it just takes a bit of time for it to ease off.

Thinking patterns can be sticky, for sure. Some of them may take a lot of looking, and the imagined self is probably high on the list. This is why we have some 'post-gate' groups, where support and further exploration is available, where residual stuff can be looked at. Seeing that the self is nothing more than a thought structure is only a beginning. It's a big step, but only the first in a line of dominoes, where everything comes up to be questioned.

Looking at it now, it could even be anticipation of seeing that there is “no self”.

Would you say that you see that there is no self, right now? Or is it an anticipation?

I think there is some concern that not much is changing and I still have not “got it”, as in "seen" or "understood" that there is no self. It reminds me of our previous exchange around similar experiences of stopping believing, for me there may also be a parallel to “starting to understand”, to “get” something.

If I ask you now to look for an elephant in the room. You look all around and check it. You don't find one.
Now is there something further to 'understand' about it? Is there some 'no-elephant' state that you would try to 'get'?
Do you need to 'get' something about the non-existence of Father Christmas? Or a unicorn?

Not sure where this is going. I think I am looking for analogies that help me to stay positively with this process in a way that allows me to be open to a new understanding of how things are

You're trying to understand non-separation with the very tool that created it.
It won't be like when you enjoyed physics at school or a new computer programme. This is WHAT IS, before any understanding.
What if the mind was never able to understand THIS? What if understanding was never part of this process. Would that be OK?

Cheers

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Trev,

What would 'get it'? ;-)
Keep coming back to THIS. Stop. Breathe. Look. In this moment, can you see a someone, a person that would get it?

“Get it” would be a feeling. Something like relaxing, opening, flowing. These are expectations. Today there is an experience of tension. Mostly in the head, but around the body too. I interpret it as something like “trying”, or “pushing”. There is also some fear around. Something about “this can’t be ‘it’, there needs to be something more dramatic”. Also an expectation.

Thinking patterns can be sticky, for sure. Some of them may take a lot of looking, and the imagined self is probably high on the list. This is why we have some 'post-gate' groups, where support and further exploration is available, where residual stuff can be looked at. Seeing that the self is nothing more than a thought structure is only a beginning. It's a big step, but only the first in a line of dominoes, where everything comes up to be questioned.

I hear that, and also that maybe I am not accepting that there is already an experience of no self, because there are still expectations (as mentioned above). “I” expect there to be something more dramatic. Perhaps this expectation, which still feels present in emotion and thought, is a sign that there is still a sense of “I” around.

There is also a feeling that I am doing something to be in the present, to "look". There is an effort to watch and question, leaving a bit of stiffness my mind/body and in relating to others. You have said many times, stop “doing”, just look. Maybe that’s an idea to bring to mind today, keep relaxing and letting go of effort.

Would you say that you see that there is no self, right now? Or is it an anticipation?

There is an urge to say “No ‘I’ can’t see no self, its all just the same, this activity is not working”. At the same time, at some level it makes sense. There is no evidence of a self, although when there is an effort to look more closely, for example, trying to see that the nature of thoughts is to run on and on, without actually being in control of the body, the effort seems to lead to tension and no simple clarity.

If I ask you now to look for an elephant in the room. You look all around and check it. You don't find one.
Now is there something further to 'understand' about it? Is there some 'no-elephant' state that you would try to 'get'?
Do you need to 'get' something about the non-existence of Father Christmas? Or a unicorn?

There is a difference. I know exactly what an elephant looks like. I don’t know what ‘self’ looks like (in fact it wouldn’t be possible to know, because it has never been there). This makes it more difficult to see that it is gone. I can see when I type this, that I am pushing/resisting this process, however that is what is going on and so it seems right to express it. I feel weird having typed that, a bit upset.

You're trying to understand non-separation with the very tool that created it.
It won't be like when you enjoyed physics at school or a new computer programme. This is WHAT IS, before any understanding.
What if the mind was never able to understand THIS? What if understanding was never part of this process. Would that be OK?

I think I see this. Understanding is doing, It is maybe more like stopping understanding. I will spend some time “looking” and “not understanding” and see what happens.

Thanks for your help.

Bye,
Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev

“Get it” would be a feeling. Something like relaxing, opening, flowing. These are expectations. Today there is an experience of tension. Mostly in the head, but around the body too. I interpret it as something like “trying”, or “pushing”. There is also some fear around. Something about “this can’t be ‘it’, there needs to be something more dramatic”. Also an expectation.

Expectations are a big obstacle to seeing. You have looked, checked whether there is someone or something that could get anything, and you didn't see anything. Yet there is this nagging thought that there must be more to it than THIS.
Language does not help, because it is full of 'not this': 'should', 'would', 'if only', 'next time', 'tomorrow', and so on. All invitations into what's not happening.
Have you ever experienced what is presented by should' in 'it should be different'? Or is there just THIS, full stop?
Have you ever experienced tomorrow? Does THIS have an opposite?
Sometimes expectations are dropped, and sometimes not, Trev. Both are OK, it's THIS doing what it does.

Perhaps this expectation, which still feels present in emotion and thought, is a sign that there is still a sense of “I” around...There is also a feeling that I am doing something to be in the present, to "look"

What is an expectation, in direct experience? Is it any more than a thought?
And what is 'a sense of 'I'? A thought? A resistance?
Is there resistance to accept that THIS IS IT, that this is all there is? Is all this 'effort to be in the present' not, in fact, an effort to think out of it, with expectations of a better NOW? Consider this and let me know what comes up.

Thank you

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred

Thanks for your post.

What is an expectation, in direct experience? Is it any more than a thought?
And what is 'a sense of 'I'? A thought? A resistance?

The way I am seeing things right now, there is the experience of the moment through the senses, which manifests in present awareness as a sort of an “image”, sound, vision, feeling, smell. The manifestation in awareness happens in a space somewhere in and around my body area. The other thing that manifests are thoughts, these can also be in visual, sound, etc. So spoken thoughts are sensed in a similar way to other sound images, in a space around about where my head is.

To answer your question. Expectation seems to be a thought, perhaps I would say emotion, because there can be a physical sensation with it – pushing or pulling at the object of the thought.

I am curious about what is happening when thoughts appear in my head. Previously I would have said that they were “me thinking about something”, or “my mind wandering”. They can lead to awareness drifting away from sense experience, and staying with a thought experience. That is OK, although sometimes these thought experiences can be a lot about “me”, what “I” want or want to avoid. What “I” will do or not do. What someone else will do to “me”. So in that sense they seem a bit unhelpful as they don’t help the experience of no-self and being with "what is".

Is there resistance to accept that THIS IS IT, that this is all there is? Is all this 'effort to be in the present' not, in fact, an effort to think out of it, with expectations of a better NOW? Consider this and let me know what comes up.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. I stayed with the experience of the effort. Previously I understood it to be about pushing a bit too hard to be in the present. Now there is some sense that it is more about filtering or distorting the present experience, and reduces the fullness and clearness of the present experience. Perhaps distorting it into a form that suits “me”. So I have been relaxing a bit with it, curious about the “effort” and perhaps seeing it a bit more accurately for what it is.

Also, as you say, there is resistance to "what is". There is something wanting a big change, some dramatic illumination or relief, which would signify that "I have made it", and "I am now something special". So I am trying to relax with that one too. Be open to whatever the experience of no-self may feel like. Be open to not experiencing anything at all. Be open to not seeing "no-self". This seems to be cultivating a some feelings of relaxation and openness, so seems positive so far.

Thanks for your help.

Bye,
Graeme

[Freddi]

Hi Trev

The manifestation in awareness happens in a space somewhere in and around my body area... So spoken thoughts are sensed in a similar way to other sound images, in a space around about where my head is.

After reading these lines, close your eyes, take a breath and take another look at whatever the current sensation is. Zoom into it, and leave any assumption aside for a moment.
Do you experience something you would call 'my body' or 'my head'?
Is there an outside and an inside, in actual experience?
Where is the limit between 'you' and 'not you'? Where does the 'not you' start? Is it the skin? Can you feel the skin?
Spend some time exploring this and let me know what you find :-)

I am curious about what is happening when thoughts appear in my head.

Do thoughts appear in your head? Is this experienced or is it an assumption, learned along the way? LOOK.
Can you catch a thought red-handed as it appears in the head?

That is OK, although sometimes these thought experiences can be a lot about “me”, what “I” want or want to avoid. What “I” will do or not do.

I'm curious, what is a 'thought experience'?
What 'me', what 'I'? Do you mean the character in the thought? Is it a problem if this character comes back from time to time? Is there some expectation that self-referencing thoughts will never happen again?

Be open to not seeing "no-self".

OK, let's have it out ;-) Tell me, in your own words, what you expect this 'experience of no-self' to be? What it would be like to see 'no-self'?

Thank you

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred

Sometimes it feels a struggle to make things clear in words. At the same time, this struggle does help me to see my experience more clearly.

Is there an outside and an inside, in actual experience?
Where is the limit between 'you' and 'not you'? Where does the 'not you' start? Is it the skin? Can you feel the skin?
Spend some time exploring this and let me know what you find :-)

With my eyes closed there is no clear sense of where “my” body starts and ends. I couldn’t draw it with my eyes closed. The sense of it is quite diffuse and vague, hearing sensations seem to take place somewhere in space, sort of at a location where the sound seems to be coming from. Visual items in imagination seem to sort of be in front of me. “Verbal” thoughts take place round about where I feel my head, although the feeling of a head is quite diffuse.

There isn’t really a strong sense of a boundary, as in skin. There are areas of tension and areas of energy spread around.

I think the main point is that the experience of awareness is not limited to the body. At times it feels more like my awareness is the whole world that I am experiencing. In other words, that what I see as the world around me, and what I see as awareness, are the same thing.

Do thoughts appear in your head? Is this experienced or is it an assumption, learned along the way? LOOK.
Can you catch a thought red-handed as it appears in the head?

I tried to watch out for thoughts appearing. Some thoughts will arise in response to a sense experience and they are quite easy to watch as they arise, it seems quite clear what they are about. When they are not prompted by sense experience it is more difficult to see them clearly. They just seem to suddenly “be there”, in awareness. Sometimes, looking at my memory of thoughts I can see that they rolled on from one to the next, and after a time I had a sense of “present-awareness” returning. I then realise that awareness had been caught up in a stream of thoughts for a time. Seeing present-awareness being “lost” into a stream of thoughts is more difficult. Perhaps it is a bit like falling asleep. Not sure how clear I am being here. I am sort of trying to describe an experience which is not clear to me. Let me know what you can make of it, and if you have any suggestions for watching. In the meantime, I will continue to try to “catch a thought red-handed” as it appears and let you know what happens.

As to where they appear – I think I covered that above.

I'm curious, what is a 'thought experience'?
What 'me', what 'I'? Do you mean the character in the thought? Is it a problem if this character comes back from time to time? Is there some expectation that self-referencing thoughts will never happen again?

I am talking about the times when awareness is “caught up” in a thought. “Mind wandering”. Awareness is not in the present. Is that any clearer? (the same as the bit above about “awareness caught up in a stream of thoughts”) When mind is “wandering” there probably is a sense of “I” because the thoughts are often struggles to get make things how “I” want them to be.

I don’t see these thoughts as a particular problem in themselves and I don’t expect them to stop. It would be good to see them more clearly and have a clearer sense that they do not contain or represent some sort of “self”. I will keep watching them and see if it becomes a bit clearer.

OK, let's have it out ;-) Tell me, in your own words, what you expect this 'experience of no-self' to be? What it would be like to see 'no-self'?

I think there has been an expectation, as I wrote last time

Trev: There is something wanting a big change, some dramatic illumination or relief, which would signify that "I have made it", and "I am now something special".

And I am trying to let that go.

The comment “Be open to not seeing "no-self"”. I just meant be open that I may not go “through the gate” at all. As well as be open to whatever the experience of going “through the gate” is.

Thanks

Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev

The comment “Be open to not seeing "no-self"”

What if it was the other way round? I put it to you that what you have always experienced is the absence of self.
I feel that 'no-self' has become a thing to get, some kind of state. How could the absence of something be 'attained'?
Where do you see a self? Anywhere? And how about the experience of self? Is it here, now?

I just meant be open that I may not go “through the gate” at all. As well as be open to whatever the experience of going “through the gate” is.

Don't think, LOOK. Do you see an 'I' that could go through the gate?

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred

Where do you see a self? Anywhere? And how about the experience of self? Is it here, now?

I can’t see self anywhere, but there is still the niggling sense that there is “someone here”. The experience feels like there is an “I” in here, looking out and doing things. Based somewhere in the middle of my head. If I look at it all I see is a body, and I notice sense experience. In the centre of my head there is some sense of warm energy and muscle tension around, nothing like a “self”. I still don’t know what a “self” would look like even if I did see one. Not sure what to do with this except keep asking and keep looking.

Don't think, LOOK. Do you see an 'I' that could go through the gate?

I don’t see an “I”. I have to accept I don’t know what going through the gate is like.

I try to come back to my experience of the present, and ask myself “What is happening?” to just be with the experience. There is some tightness in my chest/solar plexus today, which I interpret as nerves or fears, and may be relating to some uncertainty in my work situation rather than the sense of self.

I have also noticed as I walk around the street there is some tension around noticing or acknowledging the presence of other people. There is just a general all-body sense of tension or pushing away of experience. As if just acknowledging or noticing the presence of another person/body is challenging. Seems an interesting thing to observe and I wonder if this tension is connected to the difficulty in seeing clearly.

Thanks,
Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev

I can’t see self anywhere, but there is still the niggling sense that there is “someone here”. The experience feels like there is an “I” in here, looking out and doing things. Based somewhere in the middle of my head. If I look at it all I see is a body, and I notice sense experience. In the centre of my head there is some sense of warm energy and muscle tension around, nothing like a “self”.

Exactly. A warm energy, a muscle tension, that's WHAT IS, nothing like a 'self'.
An 'I' in the middle of the head, looking and doing > actual experience or thought?

Coming back to this resistance to WHAT IS, which we talked about earlier, and whatever makes you think that 'you' don't see clearly ...

Leave the thought stream for a moment, come back to the senses and scan what is given in direct experience.
Just LOOK. Notice what is here, what is seen, what is heard, what is touched.
Really plunge into all the flow of what is happening right now. Spend a few minutes giving THIS all your attention.
Now consider:
What is missing?
What are you looking for that is not already here?
What should be different?
How much clearer can THIS be?

Thank you,

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred

Really plunge into all the flow of what is happening right now. Spend a few minutes giving THIS all your attention.
Now consider:
What is missing?
What are you looking for that is not already here?
What should be different?
How much clearer can THIS be?

OK. I have been aiming for this as an exercise and trying to reconnect with it through the day. Just opening myself up to my sensations. The feeling of wind on my skin, the sounds, the sights, aiming to relax and open and let them in, let them flow through. It has been different, there has been a more immersive experience, as if the volume of my sense is turned up higher and the thoughts have softened. Open to a fuller experience of the present.

When I have this sense of immersion, I have asked “What is missing? What else is needed?” And so on. It makes sense. There is enough in the present moment. At times there is a sense that there is no sign of or need of “self”, no need to “be Trev”, at the same time, I don’t feel I have quite kicked the habit yet. “How much clearer can THIS be?” – I don’t know the answer to that.

Mind does still wander back to its habitual, distracted state. So when it occurs to me I give some sort of encouragement or invitation to move back into the senses. I will carry on with this encouragement for now and notice what happens.

When you say really LOOK! I assume you mean really TOUCH, HEAR and TASTE as well.

Thanks,

Trev

[Trev]

When you say really LOOK! I assume you mean really TOUCH, HEAR and TASTE as well.

Looking at your last post again, I see you have already answered that.

[Freddi]

Hi Trev

Mind does still wander back to its habitual, distracted state.

We're back to this expectation that the mind should stop wandering - I wonder where you've been sold that idea?
You are looking for a permanent 'state' and there is no such thing.
As demonstrated again by the beginning of your post, you have looked and looked again, and have not found a 'self'. Yet you're hanging on to this idea, this state where the mind does not get distracted.
Thoughts will still come and claim experience, try to make sense of it, own it. That is the nature of thought, and it won’t stop.
Ultimately I am not here to prove to you that there is no self, you have to prove to me that there is one. I am only pointing to the gate, 'you' have to go through it.
You say you can't find a self, yet your thoughts say ‘not yet’. You are clinging on to some expectation about a different experience, a fiction. Thoughts tell a story about a ‘Trev not quite there’, but I can’t see that. There is only seeing. 100% of the time.

THIS is sooo simple that the mind overlooks it. It can't make sense of it. Take a breath and observe, what is actually happening, right here and now. Isn’t it a permanent miracle? How it flows, how it dances and moves and changes constantly. Notice just the smelling, the hearing, the seeing, the touching. THIS IS IT! Stay with it, it is a constant celebration.

Would now be a good time to admit and accept that WHAT IS is ALL THERE IS?

Fred