Denis, please post here

[Moonlight]

Wonderful, Dennis. However, there is a difference between an experience and the seeing through of illusion, right? Can belief in Santa come back once you realize the truth?

It's great to talk and discuss wonderful experiences, but they don't mean that one has dropped the belief in the self, which is what we're focusing on. Feelings of oneness and bliss are great. But tell me, can something which is seen to not exist, reappear? Can a mental construct become a self again?

What is this 'ego' that you are concerned about? Seeing suffering can bring up feelings, emotions, thoughts, but does that mean that Dennis will reappear? Is he existing at the moment?

[Denis]

Oh, that takes the wind out of my sail. Ok, disappointment here. Can't say there is rejection though, but maybe.

No, belief in Santa cannot return, unless of course you saw Santa. May not be relevant here but disbelief can be dispelled too. Such as disbelief in black holes, which cannot and have never been seen. That does not mean they do not exist.

Of course, that's physical and the only thing physical about the ID is the body. So can the ID reappear, only as mind and body. Ego, that's not physical. Maybe emotional. Is the thought present in this mind? Yes, to some extent. Yesterday I would have said no, definitely. I read your post first thing this morning when I woke up. You must be in Europe or you keep mighty late (or early) hours? Anyway I was disappointed. Of course I'll never believe in santa or unicorns or tooth fairies or that the ego is physical. Is there a remnant of belief in self in my mind? Maybe. We'll see.

Today I hiked with a new acquaintance. He talked incessantly. Entirely about himself and relatives. Almost no compassion for others that I could see. Seemed to condone killing animals for entertainment. I found that not just odd but repugnant and told him. He seemed to question it then.

Funny, my ego didn't arise and get defensive. Will I get defensive if you reject black holes, I doubt it. Ok, what is ego? It's that inner voice saying I am right: black holes exist. But defending that view seems to have faded considerably. Does the self exist? Not that I have found. Only body. Am I worried I have not dispelled the imaginary self? Yes, I am concerned I don't have it. Not sure.

Is denis existing at this moment? If the insecurity that I don't have this is a sign, yes. Do I sense a self? No.

I will continue looking for self as before. Geez, I thought we were finished with that looking. Que sera, sera!

I always look forward to your posts. Thanks for hanging in with me,
denis

[Moonlight]

Dennis, you said you felt disappointment. But it is our job here to make sure that the illusion is really seen through, not just a passing experience. That happens sometimes, and the mind hooks on to the experience, trying to recreate a feeling from the past. I'm not saying thats the case here, but just mentioning why I have to be a little ruthless... :)

Does Dennis still exist? Or rather does a belief in Dennis exist? If not, then who is there to feel the disappointment, to feel worried. Look into that. Look at the connection between emotions and thoughts and identification. The light of observation dissolves the unreal.

Tell me what you find.

[Denis]

Great idea! Ill do that today and write more this pm. Thanks, denis

[Denis]

Hi Moonlight,

I'm glad you are so thorough. It's not ruthless; it's honest.

OK, I have thought about the connection between emotions, thoughts and ID as I went thru activities today. I have to admit that I haven't analyzed the connection before or even considered it.

Thoughts are real, but not reality (usually, if at all). Emotions and thoughts are temporary. Emotions are real in that the body is reacting electro-chemically. I know, that's learned, not experienced. Experience tells me they arise from a state of mind in response to what is happening. I know they are both real, learned and experienced by the mind/body.

This may sound philosophical; of course you'll know it's just my view of the connection between thoughts, emotion and ID: Thoughts and emotions define the ID. The ID changes with them, just as thoughts and emotions change. The difference seems to be that the thoughts and emotions can exist without the ID but not the converse. Logically, the ID is just a mental construct. I can identify a thought; I can identify an emotion; I cannot identify a denis except as a body with thoughts and emotions. The only denis is a combination of processes; he is just a happening.

However, I still have emotions, albeit tempered recently, that I would think point to ego. For instance, the defense mechanism that kicks in when someone reacts as though I did something stupid. At a garage sale today, I moved a tray of cupcakes away from a woman's purse strap that was dragging in them; in the process "I" knocked over a tray of candy. The woman behind the counter gave me a very crusty look. I felt the need to explain. It seems to me that if I had abandoned ego, I would not need to explain?

Am I rambling? I really am focusing on this. I'll watch some more for the connection until I hear from you.

thanks a bunch,
denis

[Moonlight]

Hey there Dennis, gave you some extra time to continue looking at this.

You saw that thoughts and sensations arise and pass through. All temporary. The mind labels them.

The only denis is a combination of processes; he is just a happening.

Right! And the mind gives the ID to the sensations. The feelings/emotions cannot define 'the person', there is no person to define, as it is again only a thought which gives an ID to the emotion. Only a thought, and thought really can do nothing, can it? It can't think, it really can't 'do' anything. It is only our belief in a thought which invests it with the power to 'hook' us.

For example, feeling anxious. A thought might trigger sensations in the body, because of an underlying belief in the thought. The sensations arise, and the mind labels it as 'anxiety'. And another thought arises, "I am feeling anxious", and this might lead to a whole train of thought as to how bad it is, what's going to happen, etc, etc. As it is, the sensation itself does not whisper to us, I am anxiety, this is Dennis feeling anxious, I am getting worse. Only thoughts, one after the other.

Something to note. Reactions, whether emotional or mental, are not erased automatically after seeing through the illusion of self, except in some very rare cases. Usually, habits, reactions, thought patterns remain but slowly and gradually 'wind down' when there is no "I" to stick to. "Ego" is not a preferred word here, due to it's many connotations and history. Character? Patterns? If there is no self, there is no 'ego', and you cannot abandon something that doesn't exist :) So don't worry about reactions, we don't want you to become a robot :)

Write me where you're at now.

[Denis]

Hi Moonlight,

You are admirably focused. Good idea to have me spending more time looking. Glad you are ok. Was hoping you hadn't become ill.

I was thinking I had a sound intellectual understanding the "I" has no substance, but not sure I felt it. OK, feelings are just thoughts/emotions. In my case, they seem to be tempered significantly since the exceptional day I had 4 days ago. Perhaps it is just the expectation the self consciousness would disappear that I question my progress.

I awoke this morning from a dream that I had returned to work at a copper smelter and we were partnered with an aerospace firm that later employed me. It was a perfect match for my talent.

In reality, I retired two years ago and have since wished I had not. So I've been looking for a job but nothing seems suitable and it is a problem being my age and overqualified. The point is that what I have been calling the "ego" was very evident. I know it's just thought but it was a disappointment to awake to being unemployed. Don't worry I am not destitute but I would like to be productive. My "I" was involved, even though I know it is just a thought with emotions.

That's where I am: A sound intellectual understanding but hollow inside without productive purpose and activity helping other beings. I'll look more today and write more this PM.

Thanks a ton for your guidance,
denis

[Denis]

Spent some time looking today, especially during meditation. No, there is no "self." Never has been. Do I feel like it's a revelation? Not really. Still see my mind judging. When I look for the judge, there is no judge but have the emotion associated with it. Perhaps the emotion has been tempered, at least when I look for the self and see it is missing.

I don't know if I have accomplished the goal but feel better. Arizona sunshine helps too. It doesn't seem to be the revelation that my friends experienced.

What do you think. Can I do more?

thanks for your dedication,
denis

[Moonlight]

Hmm Dennis. I'm not sure at the moment. It could be that it is an intellectual understanding, but not yet a clear seeing. Or perhaps you are seeing it, but your expectation of something 'bigger' is getting in the way. It is different for everyone, sometimes just a slight perceptual shift after the belief is seen through.

Let's see now. If you feel there is a 'you' to have accomplished the goal, then there's still a belief in the 'you', isn't there? But if it's just a matter of speech, and you know there never was a you to do that, then you're there. You see the difference?

How about answering these questions first. Please answer them all, at length. You can answer them in different posts if you so want, but write as much as you want/can.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) What are you referring to when you say "I"?

[Denis]

You are spot on observant. I agree: either intellectual only or a slight perceptual shift.

Your observation that there is an "I" to accomplish the goal may be the answer. At the moment, it seems true. There is an "I" to accomplish this. I will start with answers to your questions, one post at a time.

1. Is there a 'me', all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Answer: Yes, there is a 'me' typing this with the notion I need to accomplish it. Of course, intellectually, the mind says that's not true. It is only typing and thought happening. At the same time there has been a perceptual shift; other's actions do not seem as offensive. Thoughts are not taken as serious personal identity. They are recognized as temporary, "passing clouds," as you said. As a consequence the emotional impact is tempered.

The answer to "Was there ever?" is the same. Intellectually, no. The feeling inside is that there was a "me" as long as I can remember (about 3 years old).

These answers seem "wishy-washy." I'll watch more today with focus on your second question: "... what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works."

thanks for your patience,
denis

[Moonlight]

The feeling inside is that there was a "me" as long as I can remember (about 3 years old).

Does this 'feeling inside' point to anything real? Who is the 'you' that was then? Apart from memories, what is there in common with the Dennis trying to achieve liberation?

[Denis]

Am thinking about the "feeling inside that there is a me." The mental continuum, that is memories and current thoughts and future thoughts, is the same. It is only as real as the memories but continues along that same stream, which is a mental construct.

The genes that enable my abilities and limitations are the same structure, reproduced. The molecules have been replaced. I believe the same is true for neurons, different molecules, same neurons. Of course this is learned stuff. From experience, it is only the memories. I suppose the rest is just cloning with increased entropy in each clone.

The 'me' today, trying to achieve, is only the same in memories and genetic structure. At three, I feared a stain on our basement wall that resembled a bear. Now shadows and stains don't scare me but the real bear does. Similar 'me,' but not identical. So what is the same are the memories and that stream of thought. The "feeling inside..." does not point to anything real, but it has the same power over thoughts and emotions that the stain on the wall once had.

Not sure where this leaves us. I'll work on your question 2) "Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works." this afternoon.

thanks a bunch, denis

[Denis]

Question 2) ...the illusion of separate self, when it starts and how it works:

First thing that comes to mind is the possibility that the universe is an illusion and infinite universes are created every moment, as is each mental continuum. I know this is learned and theoretical but it is the thought that arises in my mind. Other universes are not observable (at this moment). Perhaps an illusion of a separate one? Similarly, I cannot see thoughts of other minds, thus the illusion of a separate self.

We are told everything is inter-related but I define my 'self' as those components contained in this skin shell that is aware of thoughts. I have no recollection of the illusion's origin in time. Similar to the description of 'me' above, it has been with me as long as I can remember, three years old. My guess is that it started with parents reacting to my actions, encouraging individual achievement with recognition and compliments. I was a very happy child. I had the illusion of self-worth, that I could achieve anything I wanted.

'How it (illusion of self) works' is the hard part to answer. First thing to come to mind is that it works for survival. A 'self' concept makes it important to nourish and protect its body. Achieving, growing, securing and defending it seem more important. In that way the illusion works to keep us thriving, surviving and coping with society. It may not be necessary, but my best guess is that is how it's works for me.

I know this 'self' is an illusion. I have experienced the disillusion of the childhood thoughts of grandeur. Maybe I am experiencing the disillusion of a 'separate self' because I find nothing but body and mind when I look for 'self.' On the other hand, I still feel connected to it.

After retiring, two years ago, I looked for purpose. Concluded two days ago that I am not qualified for any type of job except the types I have had in the past: teacher, professor, or thermal/fluids engineer. That conclusion was actually liberating. I can focus on those categories and couple it with helping others. Presto! Had an interview today and one scheduled for tomorrow. The point here is related to 'how the imaginary self works'. My image of my self worked when I had a daily purpose. Somehow there is an identity attached to that purpose, skill, or value to society. I'd say that is how 'self works' to sustain itself. Intellectually, I know that identity changes and each image of it is no more than a passing thought.

Don't feel obligated to comment on all of this. I feel like I have taken advantage of your offer to let me explain in detail.

thanks for reading,
denis

[Moonlight]

Dennis I'll reply a little later as busy at the moment. In the meantime, feel free to reply to the other questions :)

[Denis]

Whew! Did I really write that blurb about the 'illusion of separate self' (Question 2)? If you haven't read it already, don't bother. I was thinking out loud. I'll rewrite it here as I see it now.

2) The illusion of separate self has been with me as long as I can remember. My guess is that it started with parents reacting to my actions, encouraging individual achievement with recognition, compliments and a few reprimands. Maybe it is common but I remember feeling self-conscious, still am.

'How it (illusion of self) works': I believe it was important to primitive man to nourish and protect the body. Achieving, growing, securing and defending were important for survival. Now illusion works to keep us coping with society. It may not be necessary. Based on LU testimonials it is not. Hope that is true.

3) 'How it feels to see this': when I think about 'self' as illusion I feel an openness, relief from blame and regret, memories are of 'happenings' not something 'I' caused. When I don't think about 'self' as an illusion, there is a tendency to close out the world and feel responsible for past happenings. I have to remind myself everything is just happening. That the 'self' is a defense mechanism that's outlived its usefulness.

I'll get to question 4): what are you referring to when you say 'I?' tomorrow.

Thanks for your patience, Denis