An Investigation of The Self and The Site

[CaseyAPayne]

Hi Casey,

Hey vince! Emails are working again. That let's allows me to be "mindless" again. :)

observation and experience creates the belief that in, what we call morning, the sun will be there to greet me

If we look a bit further at this, we only say that the belief exists when we are talking about it. The rest of the time, when it's not even considered, does the belief actually exist ? Where is it when we are not thinking of it ?

Heh... Yeah, you're just "doing stuff". That said, I suppose a lot (practically all) of what I do is driven by the believe that I can help ease the suffering of other organisms... Or maybe, better put, that "I" can help our collective organism function better.

Comes after the story has been ingrained.

So after it is ingrained, we can bypass the thoughts that make up the story. We can go straight to the responding. With consideration of the subject, we can bring the story back, but otherwise it is not required. So is there anything active that has us behaving as if the sun will surely rise ? Is there anything active as a result of the absence of a counter belief ?

The "Is there anything active..." is a little confusing for me, but I think I'm catching the transmission.

I have this "three step philosophy". It's pretty simple, but it took a long time to arrive at it.

1. Have some big crazy dream that would take decades to complete.
2. Master the daily habits to get there.
3. Realize said dream is an illusion.

That really just leaves "master daily habits". I'm not saying this is "perfect", but using it as a response to the above, while one is doing 2, 1 and 3 aren't necessary. Really all there is is 2. Really a person doesn't have to "master" anything either, but... one is just doing things within the context of the conceptual framework of 1 (a framework that, even when "you" create it "yourself"... is something you don't have any control over. lol)

I suppose the "active" thing would be the "dream"?

Hmmm... I want to say that there's an "objective reality"

Yes, it's such a convenient story. Your "but..." says there is an exception. Can you know that there is or is not an objective reality ?

I can not know that there is an "objective" reality (science even seems to point to there not being one).

I do behave AS IF there is an objective reality, when interacting with fellow organisms at least.

Yes, of course. Even if we recognize the degree of illusion in consensus reality, we have to play to it, for communication and cooperation to happen.

Yep. lol Regardless of how convincing my argument of money and legal agreements being consensus fictions I don't think I'll ever talk a used car sales into handing me the keys to a car and driving off into the sunset...

THIS is not a thing.
Reality can be seen
as objective stuff.

Real objective stuff?
Reality's not a thing?
Reality's THIS?

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Casey

the believe that I can help ease the suffering of other organisms... Or maybe, better put, that "I" can help our collective organism function better.

Yes, i share this. Do you think it is a belief about being a good person ? ..or hardwired into our DNA ? It would seem to be an intelligent survival strategy.

That really just leaves "master daily habits".

At first glance it might seem to be paradoxical, to say that for me this means the same as 'enjoy the ride' or 'hands off the tiller'. Mastering 'non interference'
At a practical level, it is recognizing every judgement (opinion) as they arise.

Can habits be changed ?
To want to master life-ing,
is amusing thought.

love

vince

[CaseyAPayne]

Good evening Casey

Good afternoon vince.

the believe that I can help ease the suffering of other organisms... Or maybe, better put, that "I" can help our collective organism function better.

Yes, i share this. Do you think it is a belief about being a good person ? ..or hardwired into our DNA ? It would seem to be an intelligent survival strategy.

I don't think it's about being a "good" person because that is WAY too open for interpretation. Was is and isn't good? I do think a person acquires the traits of what people like to call "a good person" as they move through the "stages of consciousness" (I'm just calling it that).

It also appears that we're hardwired to operate as a "collective organism" even though we're largely taught to operate and think in terms of individualism (here in the west). The individualistic thinking also evolved out of our collective/tribal thinking. A product of groups getting too large to manage on an interpersonal level it seems.

DEFINITELY an intelligent survival strategy! Easing the suffering of other (human) organisms both reduces the suffering of THIS organism (by better understanding the nature of organismic suffering and applying it to myself) and strengthening my "collective organism" (the networks I bond with, normally limited to family in our cultures current conceptual frameworks, but often includes groups like churches, etc.).

It's "easy" to see how slight modifications of "collective organismic neutral networks" (our acting AS IF realities) could massively shift how we interacted with other nodes (organisms) in the network... or something. lol

That really just leaves "master daily habits".

At first glance it might seem to be paradoxical, to say that for me this means the same as 'enjoy the ride' or 'hands off the tiller'. Mastering 'non interference'
At a practical level, it is recognizing every judgement (opinion) as they arise.

It's really hard to put into words, no?

"Mastering daily habits" could = (mastering) "enjoying the ride) or (mastering) "keeping hands off the tiller" or (mastering) "not mastering things" lol

Can habits be changed ?
To want to master life-ing,
is amusing thought.

Mastering life-ing
Keeping hands off the tiller
Enjoying the ride

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Casey.
Is there an experiencer to experience the experienced ?
When looking at a tree, where does the see-er interface with the seen ?

It's easy to see that sensations are experienced. How is thought experienced ?

Does hand free tiller,
mean that the tide will carry
you into trouble ?

[CaseyAPayne]

Good evening Casey.

Afternoon vince.

Is there an experiencer to experience the experienced ?

There has to be within the definitions of the words! But...

When looking at a tree, where does the see-er interface with the seen ?

The "interface" is all mind.

It's easy to see that sensations are experienced. How is thought experienced ?

Like THIS... This is all "thought". No?

All of the inputs coming in and bouncing around in the echo chamber of the mind.

I can't even think without words, sounds playing in my mind. Or images, lines and shapes and colors in my mind, tied to words...

I was saying it before, everything is "thought". The sounds, the touches, the sights... they dance around with residual sounds, tastes, sights and create THIS (the concept of it anyway... lol)

Does hand free tiller,
mean that the tide will carry
you into trouble ?

Does trouble exist?
Sometimes, yes, but mostly, no.
We handle what comes.

I wrote this on Facebook yesterday - "Whatever you're doing, it's perfect."
Perhaps I should have written - "Whatever you're experiencing, it's perfect."

Maybe I should get rid of the you and are... - "Experience is perfect."

Good, bad, happy, sad...
Experience is perfect.
Embrace the trouble.

[vinceschubert]

Is there an experiencer to experience the experienced ?
There has to be within the definitions of the words! But...

It's the "But..." that i want to hear about.
Try it from this angle; Where does the experiencer finish and the experienced start ?

Good, bad, happy, sad...
Experience is perfect.
Embrace the trouble.

Perfect is concept
Trouble is concept as well.
What about embrace ?

love

vince

[CaseyAPayne]

Aw man! I must have forgotten to hit submit! lol I did copy and paste the koan I wrote into Facebook:

Everything, concepts.
Everything and every thing.
Concepts separate.

Is there an experiencer to experience the experienced ?
There has to be within the definitions of the words! But...

It's the "But..." that i want to hear about.
Try it from this angle; Where does the experiencer finish and the experienced start ?

I can't write what I wrote the other day, but it isn't needed anyway. I had been walking around with "where do trees end and I begin" type of thinking since the post before this one. I'm led back to the "butt" (concept), "meeting" (concept), "floor" (concept). I experienced the illusion of borders with that. This led me to thinking about "I" (concept), "see" (concept), "tree" (concept). There is an illusion of borders there as well!

I haven't yet gone outside to sit and look at a tree yet. But I want to! :D

That's right... This concept of "space", the distance between me and the tree. In my lost post I wrote about "meeting" and the "seeing" have the same "distance" between myself/the experiencer (butt/eyes) and the experienced (floor/tree). If that makes sense...

There are no, other than conceptual, lines separating the experiencer and the experienced.

A tree is a nice analogy of that as well. While we like to create the rigid lines which separate a tree from the rest of the world, it is directly connected to sunlight and deeply embedded within the ground and there are whole ecosystems which reside on, in and around a tree. "Where does life begin and end with a tree?" That's what came to mind while writing anyway.

Perfect is concept
Trouble is concept as well.
What about embrace ?

[vinceschubert]

Everything, concepts.
Everything and every thing.
Concepts separate.

Concepts separate ?
How can this possibly be ?
Concept content too.

Good evening Casey,

That's what came to mind while writing anyway.

Good rant. Thankyou.

i should have handed you over to other guides some time ago. i did have a few look some time ago, but they couldn't quite read you. (fucking language #@*!)
The real reason is because i'm having great fun with you. (and it's always a positive to dig deeper)
Give me a short rant on these questions again, and we'll find out if it's clearer (for some) just where you are coming from.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you saw ? How long ago did it happen.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life?
Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

love

vince

[CaseyAPayne]

Letting you guys know I didn't fall of the face of the earth. I want to have a good piece of time set aside to authentically respond to this in a relaxed manner. I have two events going on this weekend which have required all of my mental resources! (Not to mention the regular resources of work and day to day things).

I'll be back! :)