How do you know when you're done?

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nonaparry
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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:23 am

Your reply is sooo good!!! So much meat here!! THANK you!!!
I don't know what the self in the body looks like. I have never see my own heart and I don't know what it looks like either, that's the nature of it being inside the body. I don't really believe there is an object inside the body or anywhere else to be found to be called the self.
Difference between self and heart is at the post-mortem, heart is found to exist in reality.
It feels like feelings in the upper body as discussed before, but it moves around and may even occur in several spots at once. There is no way to know it is a self. In fact logically it doesn't make any sense at all but there is still a sense of it being one anyway. It just seems like it's the only thing that's always been there. The body grows and changes, people come and go, beliefs and opinions may change, but there is always that one long uninterrupted line of experience. That voice in the head and accompanying feelings that say "this is who you are."
YES. The voice in the head, and the accompanying feelings, are all that reinforces the story of Daniel.

Of course it seems like it's the only thing that's always been there. The fictional character "Daniel" was invented by your parents and well-established by the time you were 3 years old. They thought it was real, too. Before that your world was only experience; now you learned that there was a separate person, Daniel, who was 'responsible' for some of that experience. You were taught to believe you had some control over your experiences. As you matured, you added to the story of Daniel, creating a character that seems more real than experience.

But this story is not experienced. It is not real. It exists only as thoughts.

The sense of self is not the same as self. A sense of danger, a sense of summer, a sense of Christmas. Body feelings, memories, associated stories. No need to get rid of that. Only notice, see, that there is no self in reality.
There is no one there, thought generates and is received, the two appear to be one happening as the thought doesn't occur once when it is sent and again when it is received, it just happens. There is just the one thought. With who notices the mind just assigns the label of noticer to a sensation in the body, and when I say who notices that it just jumps to another.
Exactly! There is no one there!
Thoughts happen; noticing happens; life happens! Nothing that happens requires a 'self' in order to happen or to be experienced.
Do you see how by attaching a story of 'you' to what happens that you create a false self? Things happen by themselves and you take credit for them.
With no self there would just be the actions happening.
Daniel, there really ARE 'just the actions happening'. Really. LOOK!!!! Look at the actions happening. There is no self. None.
I am trying to see but I am finding it difficult.
I know. This is because you want to See with your mind; i'm telling you to See with your eyes!! EXPERIENCE that the actions just happen without you.
There's little flashes of it for a micro second, but he attachment is strong. This imposition of self creeps back before I even know what's happening, and it is hard to shake again
Yes. i really get that. And the stronger the need to control, the harder it is to shake.

Let me ask you this. Are you Really 'in control' of the actions you experience? Do 'you' send messages to your muscles telling them to operate? to your eyes telling them to see? to your brain telling it to understand? Do you tell the wind to blow, the sun to shine? Aren't these happening all by themselves, without a story of Daniel required to make them happen?
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Daniel
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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:56 pm


Let me ask you this. Are you Really 'in control' of the actions you experience? Do 'you' send messages to your muscles telling them to operate? to your eyes telling them to see? to your brain telling it to understand? Do you tell the wind to blow, the sun to shine? Aren't these happening all by themselves, without a story of Daniel required to make them happen?
When looking no., There is still this tiny twinge of one little iota of labeling some feeling me and wanting to give it authorship. But as I said much more clear now. There is still some element of I look I start to see and I want to just keep looking until some "thing" happens and I just know it's done, I try to keep it in focus, there is a sort of energetic build up, and it drops and I can't focus again unless I stop trying to look for a few minutes. I stare at something and I see it in a pure form, but only for a minute. Am I expecting to much or do I need more focus?


Given that the whole premise of this thread is that there was the possibility that I could be there already, and I feel like I have seen what I'm sort of seeing now before,I really just want to drill the shit out of this and leave zero room for any doubt.

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nonaparry
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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:56 pm

When looking no.
Exactly. LOOKing is engaging with reality, experiencing what is happening now, without telling an imaginary Daniel a story about what is happening. No commentary; just experience experiencing.
There is still this tiny twinge of one little iota of labeling some feeling me and wanting to give it authorship.
And is it REAL or is the label just a word? Look at the label "I". We add the label "I" to an experience after the experience, and suddenly "I did it". Oh really??? LOOK. Do our experiences require an experiencer in order to happen??
There is still some element of I look I start to see and I want to just keep looking until some "thing" happens and I just know it's done, I try to keep it in focus, there is a sort of energetic build up, and it drops and I can't focus again unless I stop trying to look for a few minutes. I stare at something and I see it in a pure form, but only for a minute. Am I expecting to much or do I need more focus?
Wow. Tough question. i will give you my experience: at the gym the other day i suddenly noticed that wherever i put my focus, that is what i experienced. i was on the stationary bike, pedaling. i looked at my feet, saw them pushing, going round-and-round. Before looking, i had no consciousness of feet; after looking (focus) suddenly there were feet!!!!

i found that experiencing experience without an imaginary commentator explaining what was going on was easier out in nature. Walking, breathing, seeing; all of experience happening, and nona was just another part of it, not a separate experiencer.

You say when looking, you are not in control. This is an example of putting your focus in a particular place.
I can't focus again unless I stop trying to look for a few minutes.
Are you sure? i find that focus holds until i start telling a story about what i'm experiencing. i stop telling the story, and focus reappears.
Living in truth is having continual focus, or at least noticing when focus is lacking, and pulling it back to NOW.
Am I expecting to much or do I need more focus?
Only you can know. i can only advise you to spend as much time as possible in direct experience; the less i describe what is happening, the more i am aware of all that is happening.

Every liberation has a different flavour. Some are massive Implosions, a big POP! Others are so subtle they only become clear with changes in behaviour and perception.
Given that the whole premise of this thread is that there was the possibility that I could be there already, and I feel like I have seen what I'm sort of seeing now before,I really just want to drill the shit out of this and leave zero room for any doubt.
i am so glad you feel this way.

Please take your time, and answer the following Fully, from your own experience:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:11 pm

And is it REAL or is the label just a word?
It feels real, but at the same time I realize that a feeling doesn't constitute an "I" A feeling is just a feeling and cant' think, drive a car, or live a life. Rather it is a consequence of the body, and the quality of how it feels are the result of what the body does



1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Yes and no. There is no physical entity called a "me" anywhere that can be found. Me is still however the way life is experienced via physical feelings in the body, emotions, and thoughts/commentary. In the past if I think about a past happening, I think about stuff that happened. I felt like this, I said this, I saw this, and there was a feeling that was called sense of self.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
It is literally just that. it is the illusion that there is a self outside this "self" that is the one actually experiencing life, instead of the actual first hand experience. I could also describe it as the commentary. Experiences happen and then the voice comes in that interprets and judges those experiences. The gets taken to be the experiencer.
3) How does it feel to see this?
Frustrating because of the nagging doubt, it still seems like something I'm moving in and out of. At the same time there seems to be greater "space" to the world around. Last night I was at a family gathering and I couldn't help but stare into space at the lack of anything behind thoughts and feelings. But right now much association, with experience.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
I"m not sure I would feel comfortable doing that since I'm not sure I have it. I would tell them them that the thing they consider to be themselves is nothing more than a coming together of the senses, feeling, emotions , and thoughts. That there is no entity behind that causes it to happen. In person you could illustrate this by giving someone a script of a couple of sentences to say and asking them to simultaneously kick their leg around wildly. When they were done ask them how many kicks took place. Of course if the really let go and just do it, they will have no idea. Explain to them that if there had been a thing in control of the kicking it would have needed a concerted effort to make each movement happen and it would be easy to know how many movements had taken place. But instead it just automatically happens with no reason for that kind of control and therefore nothing that pays close attention. A bit silly and not complete but maybe not a bad way to start.


....I guess I'm not done yet.

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nonaparry
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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:45 am

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Yes and no. There is no physical entity called a "me" anywhere that can be found. Me is still however the way life is experienced via physical feelings in the body, emotions, and thoughts/commentary. In the past if I think about a past happening, I think about stuff that happened. I felt like this, I said this, I saw this, and there was a feeling that was called sense of self.
What is Daniel? A word/thought + emotions + sensation. 
What is "I"? A word/thought + emotions + sensations.

Thought - exist
Emotions - exist
Sensations - exist

Daniel - just a label
I - just a label

Look in this direction.

Let me know what comes up.

where is the self in all of that?

sense of self - yes
actual self - no

....I guess I'm not done yet.
You are at the gate, Daniel.

There is no separate self at all in real life. 

Check it.
There is no you, look. Engage fully; FOCUS!
It’s good idea to get outside into nature. Watch animals, babies, other people. See how everything moves, wiggles, trees, grass, animals, birds, humans, the body that is here now.

Notice life, aliveness, notice how everything is happening effortlessly. Turn the focus outside. Notice how everything simply is. It's real. It's here, now, alive.

See how seeing just happens. There is no one behind the eyes, no watcher, no observer, only watching, observing happening in the present moment.  Mind is doing it's usual business of labeling experience and it is also just happening by itself without an effort.

If there is a doubt, notice it, look right at it, see it for what it really is—another mechanism of protection. Just that. It is just a thought that arises and passes away. Keep looking at the obvious. Focus. Is there a focuser? Or focusing happening?

You are seeing it already at this point, just a click in the mind that is needed to recognise this fully.
At this point there is nothing that you need or can do. Let it unfold. See that there is nothing that can do anything, admit, that. No one to let it happen.  It all just happens. It's all happening already—noticing, recognition, seeing.   There is no you, there never was, only life.

There are many traps here and you will need to focus hard. Everything that is not direct looking is a distraction from looking. Mind will be creating all kinds of distractions, but just remember to stare at the gate.

Gate is the best friend in this search for freedom. It's a sure one time crossing, once the truth is seen you cannot fall back into belief of separate being. Same way as you cannot ever belief that Santa is real in real life.

Daniel, LOOK. Focus. Ask anything you are unsure of.
love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Daniel
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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:19 pm

I realized at some point in the afternoon yesterday that I have been doing this all wrong. There has been a click in the mind but not the final one. It's the one that has me now going in the right direction. I was doing all the stuff that is warned against here. Looking with the mind, building a belief system. It's difficult still to hold it but I get it and I realize that there is no one holding it. There is just holding it. I was able to see it pretty strongly for a couple of minutes yesterday while sitting in a waiting room. I am going to run some errands and sit in the park. I will report back later. Talking about this is immensely helpful.

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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:03 pm

I realized at some point in the afternoon yesterday that I have been doing this all wrong.
Yes. i'm so glad you've noticed. And you can't do it 'wrong'; only ineffectually.
I was doing all the stuff that is warned against here. Looking with the mind, building a belief system.
Yes. It's so easy to construct stories about not constructing stories. This is why at LU we focus on Direct Experience.
It's difficult still to hold it but I get it and I realize that there is no one holding it. There is just holding it. I was able to see it pretty strongly for a couple of minutes yesterday while sitting in a waiting room. I am going to run some errands and sit in the park. I will report back later.
Excellent!!! i don't know why, but it seems easier to SEE when outside of one's usual environment. Being out in Nature is especially useful.
Talking about this is immensely helpful.
i will check in throughout the day. Stay focused. Please tell me all you experience.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:51 am

A few more flashes of it today. I get it, I totally get it now. There is no you. You is not an actual thing to be found anywhere in reality. You guys say it ad nauseum and somehow I was too dense to ever really hear it. I 'm getting these short little flashes of it. One just a couple of minutes ago when I was giving up for the day to get ready for bed. I don't know how to make it happen more, for longer, to stick. If there is no me how do "I" make anything to happen? I can't get for more than just a literal fleeting second but it is just long enough to really know what it really is. In trying to get it though I fall back into intellectualizing and questioning if everything is a "me" trying to force it and that doesn't really work. When I just sit and look it seems like nothing is getting done like I'm just staring off into space.

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nonaparry
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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:55 am

I get it, I totally get it now. There is no you. You is not an actual thing to be found anywhere in reality. You guys say it ad nauseum and somehow I was too dense to ever really hear it.
Hahahaha!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I 'm getting these short little flashes of it. One just a couple of minutes ago when I was giving up for the day to get ready for bed. I don't know how to make it happen more, for longer, to stick.
What this one noticed, is where its focus is, no self is found. Direct experience helps keep this one connected to experience instead of Thinking About experiences. Look; Notice ALL the time! When focus drifts, and you find yourself Thinking About something, bring your attention back to what you experience directly.
If there is no me how do "I" make anything to happen?
You don't. Making stuff happen is a story we attach After the experience.
I can't get for more than just a literal fleeting second but it is just long enough to really know what it really is.
Do you notice anything in particular that seems to bring it on? Tell me what you are experiencing before, during, and after these episodes.
In trying to get it though I fall back into intellectualizing and questioning if everything is a "me" trying to force it and that doesn't really work.
No; intellectualising will not get you through the gate. Sounds like you have one foot through. Can you describe what seems to stand in your way? Perhaps it will be clear to this one.
When I just sit and look it seems like nothing is getting done like I'm just staring off into space.
Good!!!! What's wrong with that? Direct experience is always going to be a better teacher than thoughts. Thoughts, though they exist, always have imaginary content; anything we think is imaginary. This one prefers to live in the Real world, in the middle of Life life-ing.

A piece of cool useless trivia about thought: Some experts estimate that the human brain can have up to 60,000 thoughts per day. So, if we shift our brains into the highest gear, it would mean our minds are wandering at a dizzying speed of 2500 TPH (Thoughts Per Hour). That’s 42 Thoughts per Minute!

You cannot think your way through the gate. You will have to SEE it. Stay focused.
love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Daniel
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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:04 pm

I am out of town visiting family and did not get time to respond yesterday. I don't have a lot of free time here, but hopefully just get just a bit at least at night.
Do you notice anything in particular that seems to bring it on? Tell me what you are experiencing before, during, and after these episodes.

I notice that when I try to focus this energy of frustration or trying to force it builds in the body. When I see clearly for a second is often when I'm reading on this site and not looking and suddenly the full truth of a statement will hit me. Or when I otherwise have not been looking but maybe an hour later and there is no strain. But there is an extent to which I don't know the difference and if I did I would already be focusing my attention there.

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nonaparry
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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:38 am

When you use the words "see" and "looking" do you mean seeing/looking physically with your two eyes?

Why don't you take a few days off, to give the wisdom time to bubble up. Get back to me by Friday to let me know how it's going, okay?

Cheers
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:28 am

Will do this. Thanks for everything Nona.

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nonaparry
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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:19 am

Excellent. I look forward to hearing from you by Friday.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby Daniel » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:34 pm

it's Friday here. I'm back. I think a break was good, not only was this over emphasis on looking I feel hurting my chances of seeing, but it was spilling over into other areas of my life as well.

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nonaparry
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Re: How do you know when you're done?

Postby nonaparry » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:17 am

So glad you took a break! Yes, sometimes the looking can be too close, too heavy. What have you experienced during your break?
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


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