Seeking the truth and request to be guided

[Aino]

Dear Vali,

Thanks for your patience. I'm feeling much better now.

How would you describe the "I" that still feels like it is there? Is this like a sense of aliveness, awareness, beingness? Is it a thing that needs a label like "I"?

Yes, it's some kind of aliveness/awareness. It doesn't need a label, it just comes naturally because I've been taught to use it. I do see the "falseness" though, it's just a label that comes with using language.

Can an "I" be found in feelings like fear, joy, sadness? Or is it just feelings like fear, joy, sadness arising and passing?

I've noticed some changes lately. In the past I've been very much identified with the emotions felt, now there's often some distance. But it's something I have to do consciously, it doesn't come naturally. Often still I forget and again identify with the feelings. "I'm sad" or "I'm so happy". When I remember, I stop and look at the emotions and say to myself "there's sadness felt" or "this human is feeling happiness", and it seems to help. I noticed that when I'm not feeding the emotions with thinking about them and believing them blindly, they actually pass pretty quickly.

So no, there's no I in the emotions or feelings. If I'm very alert, I can see the emotions appear and disappear. It requires a lot of effort though.

I noticed when being feverish, that it was easier to distance myself from physical pain than emotional pain. Like it's easier to think that things happen to the body, and the body is not me. But when it's emotional pain and it's in the mind, I more often think it happens to me, not to some other thing called mind. So I guess that means I still identify a lot with the mind?

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

Glad to hear you are feeling better.

Great to hear what you've written, sounds like things starting to shift :)

So no, there's no I in the emotions or feelings. If I'm very alert, I can see the emotions appear and disappear.

Excellent

It requires a lot of effort though.

The journey and work really only begins once the illusion of self is seen as there is such a strong habit of self-ing that it will keep running the scripts for quite some time. So needs patience and compassion to keep re-looking and seeing through the illusion and labelling afresh. Slowly over time this changes though. And also once the illusion is seen it's like with Santa, once you know he isn't real and only a story there's no way to re-belive in Santa. You just know.

So let's try another avenue of inquiry. Would you say that there is a self that controls daily actions? Try this:

Stand up and slowly walk about. In direct experience, is there a self controlling the walking - can you find a controller? If so can you describe this (where is it, what is it etc)? Or is there just walking?

You can also try this for other activities like cooking, shopping, washing up etc.

Let me know what you find.

Kind wishes

Vali

[Aino]

Stand up and slowly walk about. In direct experience, is there a self controlling the walking - can you find a controller? If so can you describe this (where is it, what is it etc)? Or is there just walking?

I've been looking, but can't find the self in the doing. Sometimes it feels almost like I'm watching a movie. I can make decisions, but where do they come from? They just kind of appear. On their own. So... I'm not making the decisions? That makes me feel extremely uncomfortable and empty. Feels like I'm stuck here in this body and this life and all I can do is watch what happens.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

Don't worry and stick with this. You are doing well.

So... I'm not making the decisions?

Well, decisions are clearly happening through a myriad of conditions, it's just not this label "I", this imaginary thing called "I" that is making them.

Feels like I'm stuck here in this body

What is the I that is stuck in the body? Is there an I stuck in the body?

all I can do is watch what happens.

Who is the I that is watching this happening?

Kind regards,

Vali

[Aino]

What is the I that is stuck in the body? Is there an I stuck in the body?

Who is the I that is watching this happening?

I don't know. Some kind of awareness. I really have no idea! Sometimes I feel like I'm the body, sometimes I feel I'm the mind, it shifts and changes. I am. I know that much. I feel alive. I'm aware.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

Explore this 'awareness' for a while.

Sit quietly for a bit noticing everything that is happening in direct experience - sensations, sounds, sights, thoughts, feelings etc.

Then notice 'awareness'. Have a sense of its qualities. Can you find an edge to awareness, where it ends? Or does it seem limitless? Does it change or remain the same? Is it any different to say 10 years ago?

Let me known what you find.

Vali

[Aino]

Dear Vali,

Can you find an edge to awareness, where it ends? Or does it seem limitless? Does it change or remain the same? Is it any different to say 10 years ago?

The awareness is not limitless, it feels like it's limits are the senses or my body. For example, there is a sound from a distance, and my awareness of it. So there is a sound, an awareness, and the distance between these two. Awareness or being itself doesn't seem to change I guess. I'm not sure even how to describe it, it just is. It doesn't feel like anything. It's not like my arm, I can't locate, touch or feel it. But it also doesn't exist beyond my body.

I don't know. I feel so frustrated sometimes. I've had moments, for example the shrooms or some experiences in deep meditation, when there truly has been no "I". So why don't I see it now? You said it's like Santa, but it's not really. It's like somebody told me Santa is not real, and then I'm "Of course!", but actually forget it soon. Then I go on living and believing in Santa again. I have seen it, why doesn't it stick?

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

So there is a sound, an awareness, and the distance between these two.

Try exploring this more. Sit quietly and become aware of the environment. Notice any sounds for example bird song or traffic etc. Now try to be aware of the exact point where sound is heard. Where is that? Can you find any separation between the sound and the hearing? Just notice what is there rather than any ideas about what you think is happening.

[quote="Aino"I don't know. I feel so frustrated sometimes. I've had moments, for example the shrooms or some experiences in deep meditation, when there truly has been no "I". So why don't I see it now? You said it's like Santa, but it's not really. It's like somebody told me Santa is not real, and then I'm "Of course!", but actually forget it soon. Then I go on living and believing in Santa again. I have seen it, why doesn't it stick?[/quote]

Are you trying to get into or grasp after a no-self state or experience? Trying to hold onto something you've experienced before?

When there is frustration, try looking at this as before - can an I be found in the experience of frustration?

Kind wishes

Vali

[Desert Dog]

(sorry, last post got a bit scrambled)

Hi Aino,

So there is a sound, an awareness, and the distance between these two.

Try exploring this more. Sit quietly and become aware of the environment. Notice any sounds for example bird song or traffic etc. Now try to be aware of the exact point where sound is heard. Where is that? Can you find any separation between the sound and the hearing? Just notice what is there rather than any ideas about what you think is happening.

I don't know. I feel so frustrated sometimes. I've had moments, for example the shrooms or some experiences in deep meditation, when there truly has been no "I". So why don't I see it now? You said it's like Santa, but it's not really. It's like somebody told me Santa is not real, and then I'm "Of course!", but actually forget it soon. Then I go on living and believing in Santa again. I have seen it, why doesn't it stick?

Are you trying to get into or grasp after a no-self state or experience? Trying to hold onto something you've experienced before?

When there is frustration, try looking at this as before - can an I be found in the experience of frustration?

Kind wishes

Vali

[Aino]

Dear Vali,

Sit quietly and become aware of the environment. Notice any sounds for example bird song or traffic etc. Now try to be aware of the exact point where sound is heard. Where is that? Can you find any separation between the sound and the hearing? Just notice what is there rather than any ideas about what you think is happening.

I don't know why but this seems to be very hard for me to do. I just can't be aware of the sound and hearing without thinking about where the sound comes from. It's so automatic. Then I move on and accept the thoughts, let them just be there, but there still seems to be separation.

Are you trying to get into or grasp after a no-self state or experience? Trying to hold onto something you've experienced before?

Most likely yes. It's just that I have never felt more complete and at peace. Even with the shrooms there were some scary moments and there was a thought that I could die any moment. And I was fine with it! There was no fear of death, because there was no fear and there was no death. I saw how everything was exactly as it's supposed to be, be there pain or happiness or suffering. It's not really the state I'm missing, but the realization itself. And I can't seem to see things like that anymore. I WANT to, but now it's just a belief and it doesn't feel true. I know I'm making it up. But at that moment it was true, there was no other way to see it and it was so clear and simple. So simple.

When there is frustration, try looking at this as before - can an I be found in the experience of frustration?

There is no I, there is just frustration. That is what I see now, but not often. The thing is that most of the time I just don't remember it, and I'm identifying with my feelings.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

I don't know why but this seems to be very hard for me to do. I just can't be aware of the sound and hearing without thinking about where the sound comes from. It's so automatic. Then I move on and accept the thoughts, let them just be there, but there still seems to be separation.

Ok , so where exactly is the separation? Try doing it again and see. Don't worry it is quite a subtle exercise so don't worry if seems hard or if thoughts take over.

Most likely yes. It's just that I have never felt more complete and at peace. Even with the shrooms there were some scary moments and there was a thought that I could die any moment. And I was fine with it! There was no fear of death, because there was no fear and there was no death. I saw how everything was exactly as it's supposed to be, be there pain or happiness or suffering. It's not really the state I'm missing, but the realization itself. And I can't seem to see things like that anymore. I WANT to, but now it's just a belief and it doesn't feel true. I know I'm making it up. But at that moment it was true, there was no other way to see it and it was so clear and simple. So simple.

It's a nice and useful experience to have had, but it is just that, an experience, and you can't repeat it, especially by trying to grasp after it or seeking for it. Best thing to do is to completely put this aside and dwell only in what is happening in direct experience - things will unfold...

There is no I, there is just frustration.

Great, well spotted :)

That is what I see now, but not often. The thing is that most of the time I just don't remember it, and I'm identifying with my feelings.

This is normal. This way of being is very deeply ingrained so takes a while to change. But the more you look directly at what is there right now in front of you, the more you will see.

When you notice "I am identifying with my feelings" try asking where and what is the I that is identifying, can it be found? And where is the me that has "my feelings"?

Kind wishes

Vali

[Aino]

Ok , so where exactly is the separation? Try doing it again and see. Don't worry it is quite a subtle exercise so don't worry if seems hard or if thoughts take over.

Nope. Can't do it. I've been trying to do this daily, but I don't get it. Here is me (or this body) sitting, and the sounds are around me. For example, there's a sound coming from above. I don't actively think about it, or think about the word "above" or anything else, but I still just realize the sound comes a few meters above me. I don't even think about the distance, but there's kind of a mental map that just works automatically and I can't really help it. It's not really a visual map though, more like I just know where the sound comes from. It's hard to explain.

I tried this another way: I took some chewing gum and chewed very loudly. Now "I" am the one making the sound and hearing the sound! With my logic there shouldn't be separation... But there it is. You ask where, and I can't point to it. But it's there. Something making sound, something hearing sound.

I'll keep looking.

It's a nice and useful experience to have had, but it is just that, an experience, and you can't repeat it, especially by trying to grasp after it or seeking for it. Best thing to do is to completely put this aside and dwell only in what is happening in direct experience - things will unfold...

Thank you. I'll try to put it aside. The mind wants things all the time. Better things, bigger things... At least I now recognize it just being a desire. Though it's quite hard to accept that and move on.

When you notice "I am identifying with my feelings" try asking where and what is the I that is identifying, can it be found? And where is the me that has "my feelings"?

When I do notice, I'm no longer identifying, haha. So then I see there is no "me" or "my feelings". But the separation is still there through senses (which made me think I should really try sensory deprivation tank).There is this life form, whatever it is, that is feeling and hearing and seeing etc, and there is the world. Outside of this life form. Inside this life forms there are other life forms like bacteria, and for them this body is the world. But I don't see how things could NOT be separate. In a way I do see the all borders are illusory... But there I get stuck.

It feels like I'm going in circles. I try not to take the thoughts seriously and look only in direct experience, but this is how I am in the world, and I'm not sure if I can see it any other way. I think I might have some underlying subconscious belief that liberation is not possible for humans because it's not how our brains work. It's just impossible to see with the tools we have, like it's impossible for cats to talk. We can only have glimpses but not really live like that.

As I see it now, "I" is just a word to use to describe this individual, it's just a label and the content is whatever is attached to it. Like a cup, that can be filled with whatever you want. But the cup is still a cup.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

Nope. Can't do it. I've been trying to do this daily, but I don't get it. Here is me (or this body) sitting, and the sounds are around me. For example, there's a sound coming from above. I don't actively think about it, or think about the word "above" or anything else, but I still just realize the sound comes a few meters above me. I don't even think about the distance, but there's kind of a mental map that just works automatically and I can't really help it. It's not really a visual map though, more like I just know where the sound comes from. It's hard to explain.

OK. So there is an experience of sound and the perception of it happening in a specific location (in your example above your head). This is fine. But can you find a point where the sound is perceived?

Also, can you find the hearer that hears? Notice sounds happening and try to find something that is hearing the sound being 'heard' - I don't mean any labels or ideas, in direct experience can a "hearer" be found hearing the sounds - or is it just hearing happening?

Can also try with sight:

While still sitting comfortably, open your eyes. Look around. Best to start in 'wide angle' mode - just gazing without focus. After a while you can start to also zoom in on specific areas of your visual field (and focus on 'objects'). Notice how this might increase the tendency to label 'things'. Play with this. Really LOOK! Is there any actual separation between objects appearing in your visual field or is there only assumed separation due to labeling things? Is there any actual separation between the seen and the space it is seen in? Is there a seer separate from the seen?

As I see it now, "I" is just a word to use to describe this individual, it's just a label and the content is whatever is attached to it. Like a cup, that can be filled with whatever you want. But the cup is still a cup.

This comes back to the example I gave about labels on page 2 of this thread where I explained the difference between: Table, University, Santa. So a cup is in the Table category and is an object that can be perceived, whereas the "I" is in the Santa category, an imaginary character - so quite different things. So how can an imaginary character be the thing that hears sound?

Warm wishes

Vali

[Aino]

Dear Vali,

But can you find a point where the sound is perceived? Also, can you find the hearer that hears? Notice sounds happening and try to find something that is hearing the sound being 'heard' - I don't mean any labels or ideas, in direct experience can a "hearer" be found hearing the sounds - or is it just hearing happening?

Well I can find the thing that hears. It's a complex physical being experiencing the sound. I know "physical" and "being" are just labels and ideas but they point to something real and tangible in direct experience.

I can't find "hearing" or an "I" that is hearing, or a specific point where the sound is heard.

While still sitting comfortably, open your eyes. Look around. Best to start in 'wide angle' mode - just gazing without focus. After a while you can start to also zoom in on specific areas of your visual field (and focus on 'objects'). Notice how this might increase the tendency to label 'things'. Play with this. Really LOOK! Is there any actual separation between objects appearing in your visual field or is there only assumed separation due to labeling things? Is there any actual separation between the seen and the space it is seen in? Is there a seer separate from the seen?

It seems it's impossible to see without labeling, it's also very automatic. Sound is easier because it's not a physical thing like a cup I see in front of me. I can't pick up the sound and hold it in my hands, turn it around and put it down again.

I can only understand this intellectually. For example, a sentence "I see a cup."

"I" = a thought
"see" = sensation
"a cup" = thought

Thought and sensation = Direct experience

So by this logic there is only the experience, no experiencer and no thing to be experienced.

I can reason it this way, but it doesn't feel true and I don't really see it this way. It feels there has to be an experiencer to experience something.

If I look and try to FIND separation, I can't find such thing. But still there is the cup, and I can pick it up and hold it, see it, feel it. So what is that thing then that makes it feel like these two are separate? I try to find an "I" who is holding a cup, and can't find one, but still these things are separate. There is this physical being perceiving the world this way, and holding a physical thing that just happens to be called "a cup".

This comes back to the example I gave about labels on page 2 of this thread where I explained the difference between: Table, University, Santa. So a cup is in the Table category and is an object that can be perceived, whereas the "I" is in the Santa category, an imaginary character - so quite different things. So how can an imaginary character be the thing that hears sound?

It's not the "I" (the content in the cup in my example), that hears. It's the physical being (the cup) that hears. "I" is an imaginary character and a label that can be quite easily dropped. But the physical being, this human, the perceiver, experiencer, whaterever it's called, is still gonna be there even if ALL the labels attached to it are dropped.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

Well done for keeping at this.

Well I can find the thing that hears. It's a complex physical being experiencing the sound. I know "physical" and "being" are just labels and ideas but they point to something real and tangible in direct experience.

Is this a direct experience or more of an assumption based on received knowledge? When you sit there listening to sound, have you actually experienced some 'thing' that is perceiving a sound? If so can you point to exactly where that happens? Try to be really precise here.

Of course the experience of sound being heard happens, this is not being challenged. But what we're looking for is a "me" that says "I hear the bird sing" etc to see if this can be found. So once again is there a hearer of sound or only hearing happening?

It seems it's impossible to see without labeling, it's also very automatic.

It's ok if labelling is happening when you do these exercises. These can simply be noticed as something that is happening in experience. The challenge is more to look at when the labels are believed to be true or to be real.

If I look and try to FIND separation, I can't find such thing. But still there is the cup, and I can pick it up and hold it, see it, feel it.

Sit with the cup in front of you on a table and close your eyes. Then slowly reach out and grasp the cup with your eyes still closed (leaving the cup resting on the table). Notice the experience of the touching - feel the texture of the cup, the temperature, any sensations, any pleasure and pain. Keep your eyes closed and release the cup. Repeat this a few times, slowly grasping the cup and releasing and each time notice where is the point of contact between hand and cup. Explore this closely - with your eyes closed can you actually find a separation, edge or perimeter between cup and hand in what is actually experienced or is there more the idea / thought / label / assumption of separation.

But still there is the cup, and I can pick it up and hold it, see it, feel it.

Is that true? Is there an "I" picking up the cup, feeling the cup, seeing the cup? Or is it rather a cup is begin picked up by a hand, a cup is being seen?

It's not the "I" (the content in the cup in my example), that hears. It's the physical being (the cup) that hears. "I" is an imaginary character and a label that can be quite easily dropped. But the physical being, this human, the perceiver, experiencer, whaterever it's called, is still gonna be there even if ALL the labels attached to it are dropped.

For sure there is a body, there is an ear, there is a brain, there are perceptions, but to say there is a perceiver is to say there is an "I" perceiving. But can you find the perceiver when you look?

Remember, this is a simple process of honest looking. So keep it simple, keep it real :-) Take your time and relax.

Kind regards

Vali