First Step Taken, _check_, Need guide on where to take the s

[shibumi-mind]

shibumi-mind wrote:When I stop looking, he is there.

• What do you mean with he is there?

o He is Me. When I stop looking, a sense that "I" am driving a body. A sense that I pick up a cup. I bring it close to my mouth. I do it slowly or I may hit my teeth. I don’t want that to happen because that would hurt “Me” (this body).

• You know when something is being experienced, yes?

o Yes, like sipping some warm coffee?

• So you can say that *something* is there.

o Yes, a warm cup filled with coffee.

• You look at it - is there.

o Yes, I see a cup.

• How can a self be there when you stop looking?

o Because I experience the self throughout the day.

• What is this self?

o I hear it is an illusion, but it has been me since I was 2 years old.

• How do you know it is there?

o I feel it is there, when I don’t look at it.

• How do you know it is there when you stop looking?

o I feel it is there, I think. When I first communicated with you, I was having a difficult time identifying what part of consciousness was “the Self”. I couldn’t visualize it, but I was finally able to locate it briefly through emotion, but as soon as I found it, it was gone. So I assume that the feeling of me is me? This is so confusing.

• We can assume things that we have experienced are there when we aren't looking (I believe my bed is in my room, for example) but that's because we have experienced those things before. Are you saying that you can't find a self, right now but you know it is there - like a bed in a room?

o Thank You! This is a good view point, but I’m saying the exact opposite, right?

• When I am NOT looking I experience a self. When I look, it disappears.
• When I am NOT looking I don’t see a bed. When I look, it appears.

o Would you clarify please?

• That you can't experience a self right now but it is there somewhere, because it was experienced before?

o I am lost now.

• Don't you think that's strange?

o Please clarify.

• How can a self exist if it can't be experienced here and now?

o Very good question.

• Are you expecting a self to pop up from the past or to find a self in the future?

o No

• Do you think it is possible to experience an experience outside this one, this experience that is happening now - a past or future experience?

o For the past, I can relive experiences (happy or sad) with memory. Not so much for the future.


shibumi-mind wrote:This multi decade view needs a different angle of attack.

• Are you trying to stop the illusion?

o Yes

• How would you know that you have reached what you think you're looking for?

o I don’t know

• Would self referential thoughts stop?

o I don’t know

• You would stop acting and thinking like you usually do?

o I don’t know, perhaps modified.

• Would you stop worrying, or suffering, or feeling anxiety, or drop your habits?

o If it’s like being present, then all that suffering would be diminished

• What are you expecting to happen?

o Have a more accurate view on reality

[Canfora]

Hello, good morning and thank you for your answers.

I hear it is an illusion, but it has been me since I was 2 years old.

So is the self something that comes and goes - something that is not there and it comes into existence in a specific moment? How do you know that is true?
Wouldn't you have to find evidences of the existence of a self that can appear and disappear to know that you are right about a self that has been with you since you were 2 years old?

Notice how you're saying there are 2 you's: one that hears it is an illusion and that is experiencing a self - other you. How can you be two self's?

Can you please remind me what you think a self is? When you look for a self, what are you trying to find?

Hug

[shibumi-mind]

I guess if it is so difficult to locate the self in the first place. Perhaps what comes and goes is the level of distraction then? The self is that which focuses on my needs, my wants, my problems, my story over and above the needs, wants, problems of others. So I have to get myself thinking like this to locate that temporary "emotion" that wants. Hmmmmm. I sense a different, more lighter view on this. Thank You.

[Canfora]

The self is that which focuses on my needs, my wants, my problems, my story over and above the needs, wants, problems of others.

Are you saying there is an entity present here/now, that is focusing on "my needs, my wants, my problems, my story over and above the needs, wants, problems of others"?

How is this self-entity experienced? Have a look. What can you find that is this self?

And how is this experienced: "my needs, my wants, my problems, my story over and above the needs, wants, problems of others"?

What creates this perspective that you are a me, a satellite, the center of "my" experience? Other than thoughts, do you have any reason to believe that experience is owned by you (personal)?

[shibumi-mind]

Are you saying there is an entity present here/now, that is focusing on "my needs, my wants, my problems, my story over and above the needs, wants, problems of others"?

I guess not. If it was a separate entity then I would have schizophrenia. From what I have observed so far, I think it is a thought process that gets created to deal with the current tasks and also has a high degree of randomness as it also selects past/future information at random and revisits them.

How is this self-entity experienced? Have a look.

It is quite tricky. It is very shy. When I do manage to snap back into the present throughout the day, I catch it rehearsing previous events, looking into the future at random, sometimes it's good and sometimes it is silly worrying.

What can you find that is this self?

I guess it's just a random thought process, like in a computer. When I am not in the present this "doer of things" at random says I'm free I can do something, and it picks an discussion with a previous girlfriend from 3 decades ago, or perhaps that I should take my car into the shop soon when I don't have my calendar handy.

And how is this experienced: "my needs, my wants, my problems, my story over and above the needs, wants, problems of others"?

If I am not in the present during social functions, I may want to dominate the conversation with talk about the glorious "Me". This does not happen much now, but If I am not aware, I can see this happening naturally. I do see it in others all the time and I smile in my mind.

What creates this perspective that you are a me, a satellite, the center of "my" experience?

Just a very "Old" habit.

Other than thoughts, do you have any reason to believe that experience is owned by you (personal)?

I guess not.

[Canfora]

You still have doubts. Can you share what makes you suspicious that there is a separate you somewhere?

[shibumi-mind]

You still have doubts. Can you share what makes you suspicious that there is a separate you somewhere?

I guess this is the definition of cognitive dissonance. Almost like a bad habit. Drinking, Smoking, or Eating something that you know is bad for you but you do it anyways out of habit or perhaps addiction.

You have given me many beautiful and useful ways to view this phenomenon. I thank you for that. Yesterday I had an easier time accepting this fact. That final turn on this lock of the mind has not clicked yet, although I am more at ease with the concept. To answer you question though, It just is. A feeling, an old way of thinking, an old way of being? I don't have a solid answer.

Thank You again Sandra

[Canfora]

You are welcome.

You have given me many beautiful and useful ways to view this phenomenon.

To view or to think about it?

Yesterday I had an easier time accepting this fact.

Why? What made it easier to accept? Do you remember?

That final turn on this lock of the mind has not clicked yet, although I am more at ease with the concept.

Are you expecting that thoughts will "align" the right way and make you realize there is no you?
No, no, no, no. This has nothing to do with thinking. Thinking gets in the way of realizing, in the way of seeing how simple this is.

To answer you question though, It just is. A feeling, an old way of thinking, an old way of being? I don't have a solid answer.

Okay. I wonder if you're looking at the thinking commentary to find answers.
That's not gonna work. Observe what thinking does. Thinking is about past or future. And when you think you're thinking about what is going on now, you are already thinking about something that is not happening anymore.
Thinking is like a legend of a movie, it makes you focus in a narrative that is only a narrow point of view about what is going on. When we think about a self, the narrative always seems to prove the existence of a self. The self is always the main character.

Are you aware that what you're looking for is present here and now? This now experience is inescapable and the only experience you can look at.
Now is the only "place" where you can find what you're looking for.
So have a look.
There is no you. Is this true?

[shibumi-mind]

To view or to think about it?

To view in the mind would be thinking for me.

Why? What made it easier to accept? Do you remember?

I had a lighter perception, less thought.

Are you expecting that thoughts will "align" the right way and make you realize there is no you?

Yes

No, no, no, no. This has nothing to do with thinking. Thinking gets in the way of realizing, in the way of seeing how simple this is.

I'm starting to see that.

Are you aware that what you're looking for is present here and now?

Yes

This now experience is inescapable and the only experience you can look at.
Now is the only "place" where you can find what you're looking for.
So have a look.
There is no you. Is this true?

Yes

I kind of thought this was the path to go. Just being present had me closer to this realization but all the thinking had me going around in circles. So by being present and looking for self may bring me to this realization. Not from thought, but from realizing it.

Thank You, That makes sense.

[Canfora]

Are you afraid to look? Do you think something can be lost, or disappear, or change in unwanted ways if you see, without a shadow of a doubt that there is no you?

[shibumi-mind]

Are you afraid to look?

That's an interesting question. I haven't thought of that. I think in the back of my mind I may be thinking that all those memories are attached to Rick, but if Rick is not there. Hmmm.

Do you think something can be lost, or disappear, or change in unwanted ways if you see, without a shadow of a doubt that there is no you?

Maybe, now that you mention it.

[Canfora]

Okay, let's look closer at this. What emotional reaction do you have to the following statement?

There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life - no doer of actions, no maker of decisions, no "entity" there at all - nothing, nada, zip; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement.

Please tell me everything that comes up for you.

[shibumi-mind]

Okay, let's look closer at this. What emotional reaction do you have to the following statement?

There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life - no doer of actions, no maker of decisions, no "entity" there at all - nothing, nada, zip;

all there is is life flowing freely as one movement.

Please tell me everything that comes up for you.

It's like riding a horse and letting go of the reins. Even if you trust it, it can be unnerving. Or perhaps letting go of the handles of a bicycle. Exciting, yet nervous at the same time.

[Canfora]

I think in the back of my mind I may be thinking that all those memories are attached to Rick, but if Rick is not there. Hmmm.

I've missed this. So Rick can be a kind of container of memories? Can you find those memories if you look for them? Or is their nature similar to Rick's nature - they exist only in the present thinking stream?

It's like riding a horse and letting go of the reins. Even if you trust it, it can be unnerving. Or perhaps letting go of the handles of a bicycle. Exciting, yet nervous at the same time.

Nice analogy. And was a you riding the horse or grabbing the handles of a bicycle before this? :)

Have a look at how doing something / decisions happen:

When a hand moves, is a you doing the movement or controlling the hand?
When a thought pops up, is a you doing the thinking or controlling what to think?
How does a decision between drinking tea, coffee or water happens?
Or how do you know if you should go left or right in a crossroad - is a you needed to decide to where the body goes next?

There is this experience going on now. Have a look at it. Do you see what is going on? Can this isness be controlled? Wouldn't you have to be separated from this experience to be able to act over it?

[shibumi-mind]

>>>I've missed this. So Rick can be a kind of container of memories? Can you find those memories if you look for them? Or is their nature similar to Rick's nature - they exist only in the present thinking stream?

Yes, only in the present, and quite temporary. Especially if you have the attention span of a squirrel. :)
I see how thinking about this and equating it to a self complicates things and reinforces this illusion.

>>> Nice analogy. And was a you riding the horse or grabbing the handles of a bicycle before this? :)

It feels like that in those moments of delusion, which seem to be fading.

>>>When a hand moves, is a you doing the movement or controlling the hand?

No.

>>>When a thought pops up, is a you doing the thinking or controlling what to think?

No.

>>>How does a decision between drinking tea, coffee or water happens?

Unknown, it just happens.

>>>Or how do you know if you should go left or right in a crossroad - is a you needed to decide to where the body goes next?

No.

>>>Wouldn't you have to be separated from this experience to be able to act over it?

Yes, you would.

Sandra,

I get it now, Thank You!

Big Hug,

Rick