kristawalter

[apolsk]

Hi Krista,

How things are going? Do you have any answers for me? It only takes a moment of focus on direct experience to know them. Like with these words, you can't read them until your eyes are focused. Focus your attention on immediate physical experience and you will see. Nothing is hidden.

[kristawalter]

I don't know what it means to know something in direct experience. The experience is just that.
To me, thinking doesn't feel exactly like dreaming when I am doing something useful like typing this message. Being lost in thought is not so different from dreaming.

[apolsk]

I see that you are doing great Krista! It's good to hear from you again.

I don't know what it means to know something in direct experience. The experience is just that.

Exactly! Are you comfortable with this realization, with not knowing?

Experience is just that, but also importantly, it isn't what it is not. For example, it is not a thought about it. When you see a hand, seeing it is knowing it, not the word "hand" that you automatically slap on what you see. Do you agree?

To me, thinking doesn't feel exactly like dreaming when I am doing something useful like typing this message.

That is because attention is constantly moving between direct experiences and thoughts, whereas in a dream or daydreaming it is completely occupied by one thought/vision after another one.

...when I am doing something useful like typing this message.

Please pay close attention when typing the next message and describe in direct experience what exactly is happening: only sensations and felt senses, please. It's OK to label them for the sake of description.

Do not automatically jump to standard conclusions, describe only what is actually felt. If you can spot any "you" typing the response, describe what it feels like. If you can't, go back to your words and see if you can rephrase them without using concepts that do not point to anything directly experienced.

[kristawalter]

I agree. The words are just symbols, and they feel graspy. I am typing this and I sense the movement of fingers and the use of language. I don't really know how it is happening; it is just happening automatically. The part of this that is thought seems internal, unrelated to anything in reality, but its effect is this message. So I experience thought right now as a navigational tool, not a dream.

[apolsk]

That's good, but please also don't forget about my question. We need to stay focused, otherwise you will keep going in rounds forever.

If you can spot any "you" typing the response, describe what it feels like. If you can't, go back to your words and see if you can rephrase them without using concepts that do not point to anything directly experienced.

Please let me know if there is a "you" in any shape or form in direct experience, and if yes, describe exactly what it appears like, so that we can work with it.

[kristawalter]

Ah.

I can't find a me typing this response.

Words are here, and they are useful to label a passing experience.

The direct experience is seeing a computer screen and typing, touching, using words.

[apolsk]

Krista,

Great job at staying with direct experiences!

You seem a bit quieter lately... Have you felt a shift in perception? Sometimes it is abrupt, like the usual narrative suddenly stops for a moment and you just see everything, and sometimes it is more gradual, softening and melting away of hard beliefs. You wrote that you had an awakening before. From my own past experience I should warn not to expect world-shaking effects of the same magnitude. It's like the first love, nothing after it may feel quite like it.

Now, let's do one more exercise, this time about control. Please sit down comfortably, put two hands on the table and do the following, watching carefully everything that is happening:

1) At some moment make a decision which of two hands you will raise (or not).
2) If you decide to raise a hand, at some other moment do it.

Watch carefully to notice how the decision is made and how the hand is being raised. Did "you" make that decision, or did it just appear suddenly? Did "you" raise the hand, or did it just go up?

As you do that, you may notice the usual feelings/thoughts that claim the ownership of what has happened. Watch them carefully to see if they are actually capable of making decisions and raising a hand, or are they simply labels automatically attached to the events out of habit.

It's worth to repeat it few times to make it more clear what is going on.

[kristawalter]

For now things are very gradual, very subtle. I hear what you are saying about awakening. Doubt is at the ready to creep in.

It is very clear that "I" do not raise the hand; the hand raises, the body moves.

It is less clear about the decision. The decision was somehow made. "I" do not feel ownership of the body's activities. There is awareness of some of the body's activities.

What about intention, such as being still during meditation of following the breath?

[apolsk]

The decision was somehow made. "I" do not feel ownership of the body's activities.

Yes, it was somehow made. And at the same time a cloud somehow appeared in the sky. Do you know exactly how either of those have happened? One appeared in the sky, another one appeared in the mind, how is it different?

Is the "feeling of ownership" the same thing as actually having an ownership? What is the ownership in direct experience, anyway? Is there anything more to it than a thought labeling something as "mine", accompanied by a sensation in the body (tension) that is interpreted as "mine-feeling"?

Say "mine" and watch the feeling as it arises. You need to be careful not to mix the thought and the feeling together as one "entity". That's where the confusion arises. Thought triggers the feeling; feeling is interpreted by a thought that labels it. Can you see how they are separate but come together? If they are experienced separately (e.g. just thought "mine" without a feeling), do they still feel "real"?

What about intention, such as being still during meditation of following the breath?

I can't give you answers because they will become beliefs, at best. You need to see for yourself. So yes, what about intention? How is intention different and important? Decision is instant, intention is a periodical reinforcement of the same decision, what else? How is "you" important for the intention to be produced?

[kristawalter]

I see how thought triggers a feeling--yes.

And yes, feelings are confusing. Both emotional and physical feelings are happening in this body. There is no I in control, no center. Its just reaction happening. When body reacts to thought, it feels real, but I see there is no self in that. Physical pain might be happening, but it is not "mine". That seems obvious, like a cloud in the sky--pain comes, illness comes, accidents happen.

I am not important for the intention. The intention is important, none the less.

[apolsk]

I am not important for the intention. The intention is important, none the less.

So the intention is just happening, like anything else, right?

Let's explore its importance a bit.

If it is not yours, to whom it is important?

Describe "important" in direct experience. First, imagine "important", then try finding its counterpart, like you did with that rose. Does "important" exist independently of thoughts? Or is it just another mental model that labels everything as "important" and "not important"? If so, how "important" is that model itself?

[kristawalter]

Important is a concept, to be sure. But there is more. Something is moving here. Something, I don't know, is trying to wake up. From me. There have been experiences of this. at this moment, I am just telling a story....

[apolsk]

I am just telling a story....

Please stop telling stories and start simply looking in the direct experience. For as long as you keep looking for answers in thoughts, it is a dream. "I am telling a story" itself is a story. Who is "I" that is telling a story? What story? Look! Do you see any "I" or "story" in the direct experience? Thoughts do not matter. Only what is undeniable matters.

Something is moving here. Something, I don't know, is trying to wake up. From me.

From whom? There is no "you"! Not at all, never was! No more than Santa Claus ever existed. We tried to find it and all we found was feelings and thoughts. Those are just experiences. Is there anything separate from them that experiences them?

Something, I don't know, is trying to wake up.

This is an interpretation, a thought. What is actually happening in terms of sensations and feelings?

There is an imaginary space in your head, where you look for memories and thoughts. This space does not exist. It is entirely made it up with imagination, along with all its content. Can you see it?

Whenever any experience occurs, you only look at it for long enough to produce a thought, and then the attention focuses on thoughts, labels, symbols, interpretations, opinions. None of that is relevant here. Please focus only on the actual experience. Thoughts do not matter.

[kristawalter]

There are just experiences, thoughts, feelings--I cannot see a mind, an origin. Thoughts and feelings and sensations are coming and going. And there is a narrative strain of thoughts generating interpretation. Even now this is happening.

[apolsk]

Yes!

So is there a problem with any of that, even if it continues?

Thoughts, feelings, sensations are coming and going. Some of these thoughts are choices, preferences, disappointments. Are they separate from the stream of experiences that they label, or simply more of the same stuff? Whatever experiences them (just a figure of speech), does it have any preference for one experience over another one, or does it simply reflect whatever arises?

In other words, can you find anything whatsoever that is not a part of this flow? If not, what can possibly be wrong with it? Thinking happens; judging thinking is a part of it. So what's the problem? Why must it stop? Can you see any reason in direct experience why it must stop?

More importantly, can this moment or any other be any different that what it already is? Is there anything wrong with it or with thoughts about it? The river flows as it flows.