Request to be guided

[Ghata]

Hi Terry,

oh dear! It wasn't meant to torture you. Sorry!

Still you found some very valuable results.

Here is a series of thoughts and events that I observe while slowly raising my hands from my lap to the keyboard to type:

I am going to lift my hands and type.
I am going to type.
I am going to type.

Very good :-). Can you see that you were already raising your Hands and then the comment says: "I am going to lift my Hands and type. I am going to type".

The thoughts came when you already were doing it. It came afterwards.

Action: hands suddenly raised about one inch, then dropped back into lap.
Thought: I didn't mean to start typing yet.

Again the thought came afterward. The "I-thought " about the doing gets added afterwards.

Also you watched another thing: the hands raised on their own, without anything directing them. Or if you wanted them to do something, they didn't.

Thought: When will I raise the hands? Now? Now? Now? Now?
Thought: OK, I'm tired of waiting, I'll do it now!

Find out whether there is anybody directing what you do.

Hold one hand palm facing up. Now turn it down. And then back up. Repeat as often as needed. Now watch like a hawk. Is there anybody directing this or does it happen on it's own? Who chose which hand you used?

Share what you find.

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Hold one hand palm facing up. Now turn it down. And then back up. Repeat as often as needed. Now watch like a hawk. Is there anybody directing this or does it happen on it's own? Who chose which hand you used?

Often there is a thought before the hand turns, and the content of the thought correlates with the timing of the hand turning:

Thought: I will turn the hand rapidly this time
Action: hand turns rapidly
Thought: I will wait a long time before turning the hand this time
Action: hand turns after a long time
Thought: I will turn the hand in 10 seconds.
Thought: No, I've changed my mind, I will turn the hand right now!
Action: hand immediately turns over.

[Ghata]

Hi Jan,

interesting findings! Could you watch the thought actually causing the hand to turn or was there just a correlation in time?

Today just go about your normal day. Zoom a bit out of your experience. It is not necessary to get the minute details. What you want to look for is:

Do YOU do everything or are many things just running automatically?
Your morning routine, making breadfast, getting to work, working, running, walking, driving...Is there a doer? Or does it happen by itself?

Much love - Ghata
P.S. I will have no internet access on Saturday. My next answer will be Sunday afternoon (CET).

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Do YOU do everything or are many things just running automatically?
Your morning routine, making breadfast, getting to work, working, running, walking, driving...Is there a doer? Or does it happen by itself?

Over the past two days I have looked at this from time to time. It seems that almost everything runs automatically. Even just now ... my partner and I had a small conflict and she left the room. Afterward, the sequence of thoughts that went through my head was so familiar. Although there was a sense of "I" there, the thoughts seemed not under my control; they seemed to be just happening.

Even when I seem to be making a choice, it all seems very patterned and automatic. This afternoon my partner asked me to go for a walk with her. Thoughts arose: I don't really like going for walks. But I should be generous and go for a walk with her. Anyway, I will get some exercise. But I don't want her to get the idea that we will always do the things she wants. Is she also doing things that I want? Yes, she does a lot that I want. I will go for a walk with her.

These thoughts were very familiar and unoriginal.

(Re: hand turning exercise) Could you watch the thought actually causing the hand to turn or was there just a correlation in time?

I could not watch the thought causing the hand to turn. There was just correlation in time. Also, such a thought was not necessary in order for the hand to turn. Often the hand turned with no thought.

Here is another observation from the past couple of days: although I have become very practiced at naming direct experience without "I" during meditation (walking, pulsing, pain, contracting, ...), when I am not meditating, the thoughts usually have "I' in them, even when naming direct experience! "I'm walking quickly", "I feel pulsing in my neck", "my back is hurting", "my shoulder is contracting".

[tfarrah]

Postscript: The "I" thought seems to be a habit. It arises every second or two throughout my conscious life. Even when I am meditating using noting practice, I feel the "I" sensations arise. Usually I don't note them because they are subtle, frequent, and familiar. When I am doing noting practice, the "I" sensations don't usually blossom into fully formed thoughts. But when I am not meditating, each "I" sensation does blossom into some kind of commentary about what is happening, what happened in the past, or what may happen in the future.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

thank you for this detailed report how things are happening automatically, even more complicated patterns like having a conflict with your partner and the thoughts that go with it.

And it is true, there is no doer needed to have all this happening.

Postscript: The "I" thought seems to be a habit. It arises every second or two throughout my conscious life. Even when I am meditating using noting practice, I feel the "I" sensations arise. Usually I don't note them because they are subtle, frequent, and familiar. When I am doing noting practice, the "I" sensations don't usually blossom into fully formed thoughts. But when I am not meditating, each "I" sensation does blossom into some kind of commentary about what is happening, what happened in the past, or what may happen in the future.

This is an important insight! The I is a thought, followed by a special sensation and the thought is a habit. And the commenting thoughts attach the I to everything.

How do thoughts work? Have a good look and tell me,


Where thoughts come from?

Do you know what the next thought will be before it arived?

Can you stop a thought in the middle?

What can a thought do?

Is thought 'thinker' doing the thinking?

Can a thought think?
Is I a special thought that does actions and own deeds?

Is I a thinker or a thought?

Is there a thinker?

Is the voice in the head you?


Share what you find.

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

I read your message today, then kept the questions in mind as I continued my painting.

Where thoughts come from?

From my own experience, I don't know. There is a sense that they reside in the upper body. But my experience does not tell me their source.

Do you know what the next thought will be before it arived?

Sometimes, I seem to. For example, when a certain sort of person expresses anger to me, the thought arises, "I know from experience that I am about to experience deep shame." Then, the sensations and thoughts of deep shame arise.

Can you stop a thought in the middle?

It seems that I can. If I am paying attention, before I'm aware of any content, I am aware of a physical sensation in the head when a thought is about to arise. Before the content of the thought is apparent, I can switch my attention to a sensory input or a concept, and then the initial thought halts and I do not become aware of its content.

What can a thought do?

In my direct experience, I don't have any sure evidence that thoughts have any direct effect. They certainly don't have any volition. So, no, thoughts can't do anything.

Is thought 'thinker' doing the thinking?

No. Thoughts can't do anything.

Can a thought think?

No, a thought cannot do anything.

Is I a special thought that does actions and own deeds?

No.

Is I a thinker or a thought?

"I" is not a thinker. In my experience, it is a combination of thought and sensation.

Is there a thinker?

In my direct experience, I have not found a thinker. However, in certain situations there is a strong sense of there being a thinker. Mainly when I am trying to solve a problem or come up with something clever to say.

Is the voice in the head you?

There is a sense that the voice in the head is me.

[tfarrah]

In my direct experience, I have not found a thinker. However, in certain situations there is a strong sense of there being a thinker. Mainly when I am trying to solve a problem or come up with something clever to say.

I just tried this and actually there was not a strong sense of a thinker. Just a sequence of thoughts and a sense of effort.

[Ghata]

Hi Terry,

thank you for doing this long exercise.

Sometimes, I seem to. For example, when a certain sort of person expresses anger to me, the thought arises, "I know from experience that I am about to experience deep shame." Then, the sensations and thoughts of deep shame arise.

Yes, you know it because this is a conditioned response.

Where thoughts come from?

From my own experience, I don't know. There is a sense that they reside in the upper body. But my experience does not tell me their source.

Very good! When looking into your direct experience it can't be said where thoughts come from. A sense can be misleading. You have to look whether you can find what a sense is telling you, to see whether it is right or wrong.

What about this one:

There is a sense that the voice in the head is me.

Is the sense right that YOU are the voice in the head? Is there any YOU at all? Have a look.


Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Is the sense right that YOU are the voice in the head? Is there any YOU at all? Have a look.

I asked myself this question several times today. There is no me at all. I was not correct to say that "there is a sense that the voice in the head is me".

Does this mean I am done? The character of my experience does not seem very much different than when I began this process with you. But it is somewhat different.

Here is what is different:

- Whenever the sense of "I" arises, I can look at it and immediately see that it is thought + sensation.

- I no longer feel like I am ever doing anything. I no longer feel like I am the author of my actions.

- I no longer feel like I am the author of my thoughts, even thoughts that seem kind of original. It's clear that even original thoughts just appear.

- It is a little easier to let emotions pass through me without identification.

Here is what is the same:

- I can still take the remarks of others very personally and can still have a strongly defensive reaction

- When I am stressed, I can still do noting practice and the stress dissolves

- I still have a sense of being a separate being from other beings

- I still observe myself making choices with the aim of constructing a pleasing self (one who is generous, successful, kind, etc.) I seem to do this with the same frequency as before.

- The frequency of thoughts is the same as before

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

so lovely to read.

Is the sense right that YOU are the voice in the head? Is there any YOU at all? Have a look.

I asked myself this question several times today. There is no me at all. I was not correct to say that "there is a sense that the voice in the head is me".

Great :-)).

Does this mean I am done?

Sweet. You will know when you are done. :-)

I am sending you on a field trip today. Get outside.

Watch trees, animals, babies, other people. See how everything moves, wiggles, trees, grass, animals, birds, humans, thoughts, feelings, the body that is here now.

Notice that thoughts are arising dependent of what is being noticed, what is being experienced.

Notice life, aliveness and how everything is happening effortlessly. Turn the focus outside. Notice how everything simply is. Perceiving is happening. It's here, now, alive.

See how seeing just happens. There is no one behind the eyes, no watcher, no observer, only watching, observing happening in the present moment. No agent that switches seeing on and off at will. Mind is doing it's usual business of labeling experience and it is also just happening by itself without an effort.


Share your experience.

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

I am so appreciative of your gentle and persistent guidance. Thank you.

I didn't have opportunity to go out on a dedicated field trip today, largely because it was quite rainy. But I did walk in the city several times during the course of my day: walking to work from my bus, walking on two mid-day errands, walking back to the bus stop from work. Because it was rainy and cold I didn't feel very receptive; I was tensed against the weather. I did keep your instructions in mind.

Notice that thoughts are arising dependent of what is being noticed, what is being experienced.

Yes. Thoughts seemed less compelling than they used to before I started this work. They really seem hardly worth paying attention to. There is still a habit of paying attention to them, but it's more easily dropped.

Notice life, aliveness and how everything is happening effortlessly. Turn the focus outside. Notice how everything simply is. Perceiving is happening. It's here, now, alive.

Yes.

See how seeing just happens. There is no one behind the eyes, no watcher, no observer, only watching, observing happening in the present moment. No agent that switches seeing on and off at will. Mind is doing it's usual business of labeling experience and it is also just happening by itself without an effort.

Yes. Again, the labeling, the judging, seemed less important than it used to. Less "me".

Can't think of anything more to report.

Forecast is for less rain tomorrow morning.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

you are most welcome and you are doing very well :-)

There is no need to wait too anxiously for results. Results will come when it is the right time. Just enjoy the exercise, play with it. Also this is not a race. Don't compare yourself to others.

Notice that thoughts are arising dependent of what is being noticed, what is being experienced.


Yes. Thoughts seemed less compelling than they used to before I started this work. They really seem hardly worth paying attention to. There is still a habit of paying attention to them, but it's more easily dropped.

Thoughts will always be there. They are just part of what is experienced, as much as seeing, hearing, feeling and everything else. The only difference is that the *content of thoughts isn't real.

Who/what could stop them from appearing?

Notice life, aliveness and how everything is happening effortlessly. Turn the focus outside. Notice how everything simply is. Perceiving is happening. It's here, now, alive.

Yes

:-)

Again, the labeling, the judging, seemed less important than it used to. Less "me".

Could you know exactly which thought comes before it is there and then only select the "good ones"?
Who/what would do that?

Looking Forward to your Report from your field trip.

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

I hope you are well.

Thoughts will always be there. They are just part of what is experienced, as much as seeing, hearing, feeling and everything else. The only difference is that the *content of thoughts isn't real. Who/what could stop them from appearing?

Thoughts cannot be stopped from appearing, although I have heard that conditions sometimes arise that lead to fewer thoughts.

Again, the labeling, the judging, seemed less important than it used to. Less "me".

Could you know exactly which thought comes before it is there and then only select the "good ones"?
Who/what would do that?

No, I can't know what thought is about to arise and select only the good ones.

My field trip today was simply walking slowly from my bus stop to my office. I saw people, dogs, a baby, trees, grasses, flowers, cars, construction machinery. I tried to keep attention outward. Still, thoughts were prominent and sticky; they drew the attention; attention was often absorbed in the thoughts. I tried to notice that everything was just happening on its own. I didn't notice anything new. My experience wasn't any different than it usually is walking to work. Even the shifts I reported two days ago (greater sense of things just happening, less sense of doer, immediate seeing of the "I" as simply thought+sensation, labeling/judging seeming less "me") seemed to be absent.

On Monday and to some extent Tuesday I felt a special ease and joy in just being, but I do not feel that today.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

I tried to keep attention outward. Still, thoughts were prominent and sticky; they drew the attention; attention was often absorbed in the thoughts. I tried to notice that everything was just happening on its own. I didn't notice anything new. My experience wasn't any different than it usually is walking to work. Even the shifts I reported two days ago (greater sense of things just happening, less sense of doer, immediate seeing of the "I" as simply thought+sensation, labeling/judging seeming less "me") seemed to be absent.

States change. Can this state be allowed as well, feeling like always, with thoughts that are sticky?

Looking at what can be experienced directly, who/what says this is not as good as the state the other day and should be different?

Could it be changed? Who/what could do that?


Warm regards,
Ghata