Am I typing this?

[czar7]

Hi Bill,

I'm curious about your answers... they are once again from thought. You need to look outside of thought. You previously said: "No, I cannot find 'memory' outside of thought. I cannot find 'past' outside of thought. "

But these last answers refer again to memory (remembering). This is again content-of-thought. I am asking you to listen to a sound and look what is actually present. I can find x, and y, and z. Not x must be there because of such and such a process.

This can be frustrating, but it really is the central point - to distinguish what is imagined from what is happenning.

Can you try again with sound. It's really just like when we did the foot.

What is actually present? There is a sound, no? What else....?

Aragon

Ok
I sat and listened for several minute,and tried to focus on one sound -- but noticed more as I sat.
When I focus on the sound I can't find anything else.

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

Sorry to be persistent, but can you do this once more:

- What sound did you hear?
- How is the cause of the sound known (i.e. if you hear a car, how is it known there is a car?) ?
- What is actually present in the experience of hearing a sound (car/bird/voice) ?

You say there is just sound present, but is that really all. How does that sound 'become' the sound of a car, or a bird. What actually happens?

Aragon

[czar7]

Hi Bill,

Sorry to be persistent, but can you do this once more:

- What sound did you hear?
-Television
- How is the cause of the sound known (i.e. if you hear a car, how is it known there is a car?) ?
In experience, I see no cause
- What is actually present in the experience of hearing a sound (car/bird/voice) ?
In the experience, the sound is coming from a certain direction
You say there is just sound present, but is that really all. How does that sound 'become' the sound of a car, or a bird. What actually happens?
In experience, the sound is heard. It doesn't become anything until thinking applies the bird / car /label

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

In experience, the sound is heard. It doesn't become anything until thinking applies the bird / car /label

Okay, great.

Where does the sound happen? Inside or outside (in experience)? Look closely

Thought says "I hear a sound". Can you find a hearer, or just the sound (in experience)?

Is there a gap between 'hearer' and 'heard'?
Are there two things?

How does 'hearer' arise?

Aragon

[czar7]

Hi Bill,

Okay, great.

Where does the sound happen? Inside or outside (in experience)? Look closely

Thought says "I hear a sound". Can you find a hearer, or just the sound (in experience)?

Is there a gap between 'hearer' and 'heard'?
Are there two things?

How does 'hearer' arise?

Aragon

What do you mean by internal vs external?

In experience, no hearer is recognized. Sound is heard.
In experience, there is no 'gap' between the hearer and the heard.

The hearer arises with thought

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

What do you mean by internal vs external?

Does sound happpen inside, or outside. Is sound at at distance, exterior to 'you'?

In experience, no hearer is recognized. Sound is heard.

Okay, but heard suggests a hearer. Is sound heard, or is there just sound?

In experience, there is no 'gap' between the hearer and the heard.

- Great

The hearer arises with thought

- Yes

Aragon

[czar7]

Hi Bill,

What do you mean by internal vs external?

Does sound happpen inside, or outside. Is sound at at distance, exterior to 'you'?

In experience, no hearer is recognized. Sound is heard.

Okay, but heard suggests a hearer. Is sound heard, or is there just sound?

In experience, there is no 'gap' between the hearer and the heard.

- Great

The hearer arises with thought

- Yes

Aragon

at first glance, it seems directional, positional, and outside, but when looking closer, in experience, it seems inside or central.?

It seems 'difficult' to look closely- like the thoughts and labels are on auto-pilot.

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

In experience, no hearer is recognized. Sound is heard.

Heard suggests a hearer. Is sound heard, or is there just sound?

at first glance, it seems directional, positional, and outside, but when looking closer, in experience, it seems inside or central.?

Look closely.Inside what? Outside what? Can you find inside or outside, outside of thought?
We're not looking for the right answer, we're looking to SEE.

Re the quote function, you just need to highlight the text you are responding to....

Speak soon,

Aragon

[czar7]

Heard suggests a hearer. Is sound heard, or is there just sound?

In experience, there is only sound

Look closely.Inside what? Outside what? Can you find inside or outside, outside of thought?
We're not looking for the right answer, we're looking to SEE.

No, I don't see inside or outside.

When I look to see the source of sound , it is not apparent.

Good to know that about the quote feature haha

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

Okay, let's pause and have a check-in. How's it going so far?

We've looked at the 'foot' (felt sensation) and 'sound', two of 'the senses'. We have been looking at what is actually present in experience, rather than thoughts about it. Do you feel confident with the difference here now?

Have you noticed that when we look at what is present, there is no 'I' appearing. So we assume, 'I hear', but when we look at what is actually present, do we find it?

Can you see how/where the ''I" arises?

You can do these experiments with any of the senses. You might like to try....

I think you mentioned the walls, tables etc before. You might like to stare an a uniform coloured wall. Outside of thought, how is it known there is a wall? What is the actual experience of a wall? Is there a gap between the see-er and the seen, and so on.

There's much more to cover, but I just want to see where we're at right now. So I'll await your response and we'll take it from there.

Be well,

Aragon

[czar7]

Okay, let's pause and have a check-in. How's it going so far?

Hello, so far so good

We've looked at the 'foot' (felt sensation) and 'sound', two of 'the senses'. We have been looking at what is actually present in experience, rather than thoughts about it. Do you feel confident with the difference here now?

I am confident that I see the difference- What is happening vs what is thought about what is happening.

Have you noticed that when we look at what is present, there is no 'I' appearing. So we assume, 'I hear', but when we look at what is actually present, do we find it?

Yes, I assume that everything happening is happening to me. When I look for me, I see the body and it seems obvious that this is me

Can you see how/where the ''I" arises?

It comes along with thought -- not all thought, but most thoughts. I can't see where it arises from, no.

I think you mentioned the walls, tables etc before. You might like to stare an a uniform coloured wall. Outside of thought, how is it known there is a wall? What is the actual experience of a wall? Is there a gap between the see-er and the seen, and so on

it almost gives me a headache to do the exercise. How to explain experience without thoughts in words?

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

It comes along with thought -- not all thought, but most thoughts.

Yes

I can't see where it arises from, no.

What I meant was what you just said - it arises with thought - the content-of-thought

it almost gives me a headache to do the exercise. How to explain experience without thoughts in words?

Good question. Obviously we need words. But if we go to the basics for each sense: sound, sight, smell, taste, touch/sensation, and then thought-label, thought-story, mental image - do you need more than that?


Let us look at thoughts:

Where do thoughts come from in experience?
The content-of-thought may relate to the past or future... but ... when is the thought arising (now, past, future)?
Have you ever experienced a thought without its content? Are they two things?

Can you stop your thoughts, say for 2 minutes?
Can you slow them down?
Can you decide the content of your next thought?
Are you in any way in control of your thoughts?

Are thoughts aware, or is there awareness of thoughts?
Can one thought know another thought?
Is there anywhere to be found a thinker of thoughts?

Please answer all questions, take your time,

Aragon

[czar7]

Good question. Obviously we need words. But if we go to the basics for each sense: sound, sight, smell, taste, touch/sensation, and then thought-label, thought-story, mental image - do you need more than that?

Ok I'll see how that goes

Let us look at thoughts:

Where do thoughts come from in experience?

-Seemingly nowhere. they feel like they're in the middle of my head, but they just show up

The content-of-thought may relate to the past or future... but ... when is the thought arising (now, past, future)?

In experience, the thought would be occurring now

Have you ever experienced a thought without its content? Are they two things?

No. Thought = content

Can you stop your thoughts, say for 2 minutes?

I feel like I can, and I can feel like i'm really trying, but there is no real control.

Can you slow them down?

No

Can you decide the content of your next thought?

I may be able to trick myself into believing I can, but there is no decision

Are you in any way in control of your thoughts?

No

Are thoughts aware, or is there awareness of thoughts?

There is an awareness of thoughts

Can one thought know another thought?

No, there is no knowing to thoughts

Is there anywhere to be found a thinker of thoughts?

No

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

Seemingly nowhere. they feel like they're in the middle of my head, but they just show up

You have a head? Where is your head in actual experience? How big is it?

I may be able to trick myself into believing I can,

Can you explain this? What is 'tricking'? What is 'myself'? What is 'believing'?

but there is no decision

Is this seen, or just the 'correct' belief'

Choose a number between one and ten. A choice is made. How did that happen? Can you describe what happens?

Thanks,

Aragon

[czar7]

You have a head? Where is your head in actual experience? How big is it?

In experience, there is no head. Thought arises, perception of position arises, thoughts 'seem' to be arising from this "center" position, where the head sits (thought, label, mental image).

Can you explain this?

No, just ideas no explanation.

Is this seen, or just the 'correct' belief'

No, not seen, suspected.

Choose a number between one and ten. A choice is made. How did that happen? Can you describe what happens?

Experience:
The number really just shows up. The mind / thought is always just behind it..

So the number is just there.