Still here

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

thank you for sharing your experience.

In the beginning you were afraid to feel like this:

Seeing that there is no I would feel sad, like what is the point.

Is this how you feel like now or how would you describe it?

Nothing is different, nothing has changed.

I more and more experience situations like an actor in a play. I see myself and others playing their various roles.
I don't take anything personally. This may have come about from seeing that there is no person. Or it may have just happened. I don't know.

Seeing that there is no person you can feel detached. This can again change and you can feel less detached. And yes, things happen, it is hard to tell what is cause and effect.

What is the I seeing yourself and others playing their role?

You came with the question

the desire to see through the belief that I am a person.

Is this question fully answered or do you have any further questions?

With much love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

Is this how you feel like now or how would you describe it?

If there is no I, no self, how can I feel anything. There is just the experience of whatever is happening.
Happening to no one.

What is the I seeing yourself and others playing their role?

The I is just another thought.

Is this question fully answered or do you have any further questions?

It's answered.

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

thank you for your answers. They are right.

I am wondering though whether you came to these answers through logical conclusion or whether you actually experienced it that there is no I.

How do you see that?

If there is no I, no self, how can I feel anything. There is just the experience of whatever is happening.
Happening to no one.

Yes, there are just experieces happening to no one. Feelings are part of the experience though and the full range of emotions can still be felt after seeing through the Illusion of self. You don't enter a zombie state by seeing through the Illusion of self. If that's where you are right now, let's look into that.

What you wrote sounds to me a bit as if the thoughts - after you seeing through their trick with the I - are throwing a tantrum: "If there is no I, no self, why should there be any feelings, anything at all! Experiences are experiences and they are just nothing!"

Please describe in detail how you feel going through the day. Don't do it from memory. For the next 24 hours, whatever you are doing, pay attention to what experiences are there, how they feel and what kind of thoughts come up. Write lots!

With much love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

What you wrote sounds to me a bit as if the thoughts - after you seeing through their trick with the I - are throwing a tantrum: "If there is no I, no self, why should there be any feelings, anything at all! Experiences are experiences and they are just nothing!"

Yes, yesterday my thoughts threw a huge tantrum. It was very strange, I haven't felt this way in years, decades even. I know you said don't write from memory but this was too weird not to mention.
I was driving into town with my wife and suddenly out of the blue she criticized my driving. Normally I would have just laughed this off or just let it go, but this time I reacted strongly. I felt anger and hurt. I yelled and drove fast until we reached our destination. I could bearly speak for the next few hours and I thought I was going into a depression.
It was very strange, yet somehow familiar. I remember thinking, my self is feeling really threatened.

The feeling gradually dissolved. Normally I am very cheerful and easy going. It was quite a shock that these negative feelings were still there.

Today I feel hopeless. Like yes I see the logic of no self, but I am still here. Everything just seems to be happening for no reason, with no one there. I feel like I am in a ghost world. There are no real people, just empty shells living out their lives according to their programming.

I don't even feel like writing this, what is the point. If there really, truly is no self, then none of it matters.
As I write this I am getting a stomach ache.
I will submit this now, but maybe write more as the day progresses.

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

thank you for your trust and for sharing your experience in the car so openly. :-)

Your wife is certainly real enough to upset you strongly with her remark about your driving and you are real enough to react strongly!

Feelings will still come up after seeing through the illusion of self. It is normal.

Is it possible that for some reason you don't allow yourself to feel, which then results in you feeling you are in ghost town?

Today I feel hopeless. Like yes I see the logic of no self, but I am still here. Everything just seems to be happening for no reason, with no one there. I feel like I am in a ghost world. There are no real people, just empty shells living out their lives according to their programming.

I don't even feel like writing this, what is the point. If there really, truly is no self, then none of it matters.
As I write this I am getting a stomach ache.

There is something hidden behind this feeling of pointlessness. What I am asking you now might sound strange. Give it a try.

Invite this feeling of pointlessness. There is no need to be afraid of it. It is your friend. It is protecting you from something. Greet it and thank it for protecting you.

Ask it what it is that it protects.

Look behind it, can you see anything hidden behind this feeling of pointlesssness?

What is this feeling protecting you from?

How would you feel if the pointlessness wasn't there?
i]

Share your experiences and please be sure to answer the questions in italic from the last post.

With much love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

Look behind it, can you see anything hidden behind this feeling of pointlesssness?

What is this feeling protecting you from?

It seems to be protecting me from being hurt, there is a sense that if I am fully alive I will be vulnerable and get hurt.

Is it possible that for some reason you don't allow yourself to feel, which then results in you feeling you are in ghost town?

Yes that feels exactly right.

This morning I went for a walk with my wife and our dogs
It was beautiful. I felt very grateful.
By the way thank you for taking the time to do this. I feel like I'm a hard nut to crack. Very much in my head, and very good at hiding.

[Geoffrey]

i"m not sure which question i missed.

i just wanted to add that i had an interaction with my boss today. he was basically saying i hadnt done my job.
this made me feel very defensive and frightened. like a little boy accused of doing wrong and not knowing how to fix it.

this feels very old and stuck. i have felt like crying today.

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

I deeply enjoy guiding you. You are most welcome.

It looks like a lot of emotions are coming up these days. This is normal, nothing to worry about. Yes, there is the possibility to be hurt and that is a very icky feeling. Still there is a treasure hidden.

Please really do this exercise though it might not be comfortable. Don't just think about it.

Go back to the situation with your boss. Let yourself feel the hurt again.

Where do you feel it in your body?
Which kind of sensations arise?
Feeling the sensations, is there a feeler and the felt or just feeling?
Can you find a separate 'I' who is experiencing the hurt?

Share what you find.


The open question from an earlier post is:

You came with the question

the desire to see through the belief that I am a person.

Is this question fully answered or do you have any further questions?

It's answered.

am wondering though whether you came to these answers through logical conclusion or whether you actually experienced it that there is no I.
How do you see that?

And I'll add another question:

I feel like I'm a hard nut to crack.

Who/what is saying this? Have a look.

Looking forward to your next answer.

Merry Christmas,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

Go back to the situation with your boss. Let yourself feel the hurt again.

Where do you feel it in your body?
Which kind of sensations arise?
Feeling the sensations, is there a feeler and the felt or just feeling?
Can you find a separate 'I' who is experiencing the hurt?

I feel it in my stomach and up through my chest and throat
It is a tightening or contraction.
There seems to be just feeling.
I cannot find a seperate "I", but the thought keeps arising, "who is looking?", "Who cannot find a seperate I"
It's like a circular kind of thinking from which there is no escape.

Ghata wrote:
am wondering though whether you came to these answers through logical conclusion or whether you actually experienced it that there is no I.
How do you see that?

Hmm, I would say both are true. I'm confused about this. I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.
I have come to this place many times before and don't seem to be able to get beyond it.
Who is experiencing this, who is aware of this?

Honestly, I don't know.

Merry Christmas.

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

again very good looking :-).

I cannot find a seperate "I", but the thought keeps arising, "who is looking?", "Who cannot find a seperate I"
It's like a circular kind of thinking from which there is no escape.

Ghata wrote:
am wondering though whether you came to these answers through logical conclusion or whether you actually experienced it that there is no I.
How do you see that?


Hmm, I would say both are true. I'm confused about this. I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.
I have come to this place many times before and don't seem to be able to get beyond it.
Who is experiencing this, who is aware of this?

Yes, at this point the question "who is experiencing it?" leads to an endless circular questioning.

Let's reframe the question:

Is there anybody experiencing, looking, aware of something? Or is there just experiencing, looking, being aware? As you go through your day, have a look.


With much love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

Is there anybody experiencing, looking, aware of something? Or is there just experiencing, looking, being aware? As you go through your day, have a look.

There is just experiencing. Everything is just experiencing. There is no experiencer.

There seemed to be a shift yesterday. Christmas Day. I was just sitting when I had the realization that I have been trying to escape "this". When in fact "this" is it. There is nothing to escape from, nothing to escape to, nowhere to go.

It's a good feeling , a relief.

Love, Geoffrey.

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

it is so lovely to read this :-). What a beautiful Christmas present for you!

How has it been since this shift happened and how are you feeling?

Write lots.


With lots of love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

How has it been since this shift happened and how are you feeling?

I feel good. Outwardly nothing has changed. But I feel more relaxed about things. I seemed to have had the idea that I needed to lose this sense of self, but now I realize that's all it is, a "sense" of a self. Not a real self.
So that is no longer a problem.

There is no longer a feeling of how things should be, it's all just happening as it's supposed to happen.
I am not in control. A thought can arise that I am in control, but it's just a thought.

There is a slight fear that I might lose this realization. That I might forget and go back into seeking and suffering.

But there is nothing to do about that, if it happens, it happens.

I am eternally grateful to you for making me stick with it, I have often given up.

Much Love,

Geoffrey

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

it is so beautiful what you are writing. Big smile here. :-) Good you didn't give up on your search.

I seemed to have had the idea that I needed to lose this sense of self, but now I realize that's all it is, a "sense" of a self. Not a real self.

Exactly. :-)

Once it is seen that there is no real self, it can't be unseen again. Even if sometimes you might feel a self you still know - like seeing Santa everywhere - it is not real.

Let this settle in, enjoy your day and write again about your experiences and what else you notice.


Then please answer this question:

Can you say with 100% certainty that yes, I, the separate self, is an illusion?

Is there anything else that you feel to explore at the moment, or are you ready for what we call 'final questions'?


With lots of love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

Can you say with 100% certainty that yes, I, the separate self, is an illusion?

Is there anything else that you feel to explore at the moment, or are you ready for what we call 'final questions'?

Dear Ghata,

Yes I can say with 100% certainty that I, the separate self is an illusion.

There is really nothing else I would like to explore, it would just be more circular thinking.
I'm ready for final questions.

After a wonderful Christmas, yesterday was rather painful. My wife and I tried cross country skiing for the first time.
After doing alpine skiing for years we thought it would be easy and fun. Turns out not so. We both found it to be too hard for our old bones, we actually haven't skied for about twenty years, it just seemed like yesterday.

We both fell a few times and I wrenched my shoulder, very painful. I think normally I would have been more upset about this, but it wasn't so bad.

Things seem to be less important, if you know what I mean.

Love, Geoffrey.