Nothing left to want

[Danute]

Hello again Kay!

Outpouring of gratitude to you for sticking with my process, which I imagine to be a dry one...

I am heartened by the words "marvelous" and "powered ahead" and find encouragement in them that I am moving forward on this path. It's harder to use words now, and see how they can no longer accurately represent the actual inner experience that I am having. It is as though I am speaking a strange language that has been agreed upon through convention but that is not accurate anymore, at least to me. That, in itself is really encouraging. Wow.

Have ‘you’ noticed when ‘thinking’ about something and in the ‘next moment’ you see you have gone down a whole new tangent of thoughts and you don’t even recall how you went from one line of thoughts to another? Or you’re thinking about something and you hear a siren and before you know it, what thought labels as ‘past thoughts’ are appearing and you can’t even remember what you were thinking about earlier?

I can see that but there is a memory of an experience I had in my teens, which comes to mind in contradiction to current AE about sequences and causality:

I used to travel by bus to and from high school for 75 minutes each way. I couldn't read on the bus or do much work because I got car-sick (nauseous). So for a while I played a thought game with myself to discover where my thoughts came from, and how they got there. At the half-way point of my trip, I would begin with whatever thought was in my head and then try to work backwards to the very first thought that had been in my mind when I first climbed onto the bus (or even walked out my front door.) After succeeding a few times to trace my line of thought all the way back, I stopped this game. But I did discover that each thought had been linked by some association to the next. I practiced looking for the association that linked one thought to the next. I did NOT just attempt to remember a list of thoughts. I was looking for the sequence and the key detail that led from one theme of thoughts to the next.

So this memory makes it very difficult for me to see how intentions do not yield results. Yet, I did clearly see on that bus, while thoughts were often followed by tangential thoughts, how they were not actually directed by anyone or anything when they arose. I could though, with intention and focus, "cause" myself to review some points on the same sequence. I also see that I may have touched on different (new) resting points of the sequence as I reviewed the memory of those thoughts, so in effect, I could not control, precisely, which parts of the thoughts I would use to follow the trail back to their point of origin.... (Wow)

I wonder if I am spending too much time thinking about these things rather than practicing more how to access actual experience.

So what is it that says that an action has followed an “intention, will or a desire”? Could that just be another thought?

So here precisely is where I am stuck when I consider the earlier story about sequences on the bus. It seems to me very real that actions can follow from thoughts, whilst not necessarily being caused by them. So I can see there is no causality, but I still can't believe that intention has no effect in producing certain clusters of potential outcomes.

At the same time, I see how absolutely imprecise all of these thoughts are. The thoughts about "how influence works" are just a story, and quite an imprecise one at that!

How is it known that thoughts cause sensations (physical tension)?

Okay, if neither thought nor sensation causes the other, what about a tendency for certain clusters to arise together, which doesn't prove causality, but suggests that there may be certain sensations that might have a probability of co-arising with a commonly related set of thoughts. (I just reviewed this while editing, and "tendency for certain clusters to arise together" suddenly became a thought about a story that wasn't real.)

Is a thought aware of a sensation?

A thought is an experience of thinking, it is not a thinker.

Is a sensation aware of a thought?

A sensation is an experience, not a thinker

Is a thought aware of a thought?

A thought is aware of nothing at all.

Is a thought aware of itself?

No, of nothing. A thought is not aware.

So what exactly is it that can be “perplexed” or have “physical tension” = nothing

Is this clear?

It is clear now how "perplexed" doesn't even exist.

So what is it that says that an action has followed an “intention, will or a desire”? Could that just be another thought?

It could, but also, there seems to be so many outcomes that are matched to specific intentions, will or a desires. This could also just be a thought. (Wow!!!!!) Okay, slowly I do get glimpses. This is a big one.

What says that thoughts are in sequence, and from these ordered thoughts actions come about, or solutions are found, or more ordered thoughts arise?

More thoughts about "causality." All stories. (Getting this now!)

but could that just be more thought that says this?

Flickering awareness... (yes!)

What exactly is it that is taking these actions or needing solutions?

Nobody is taking any action. There are just thoughts about taking action, and sensations + thoughts about actions + thoughts about "outcomes tied to these actions and to these intentions."

how can thoughts be complex?

Well, is the above thought one thought, a set of three or four thoughts, or not a complex thought? (thoughts about taking action, and sensations + thoughts about actions, and thoughts about "outcomes tied to these actions and to these intentions.")

So how is the thought “the sky is blue and full of white fluffy clouds” related to “desire, will and intention”?

The thought is related to the intention, desire, and will, to respond to a question about sky. Possible questions are:
What will the sky look like in your painting?
How is the weather at the beach today?
Do you think it will rain later?

There is no proof of direct causality, but there are co-arising phenomena. Yet, I am beginning to see how a million questions can provoke that answer, and probably all of the questions could provoke a million answers, both sane and insane, meaning related or unrelated.

Flickering, flickering realities... the title of a movie, illusory images flickering on a real screen. Only the screen is real, the images are flickering and unreal.

What is it exactly that controls or responds to thoughts?

It's not possible to determine, so that is the same as "nothing controls or responds to thoughts"

And what is the “I” that can believe or not believe in something or nothing?

Well, the "I" disappeared some time ago, when it became a mere thought! :)

What is the AE of belief?

Just a thought (as story), or maybe more precisely "thinking" (but that sounds like a synonym, which it really is.)

Where is this “I” located?

It can't be located anywhere.

Thoughts need to be seen through with absolute clarity before we move on.

My clarity flickers. My glimpses of seeing through thought are tenuous.

I am a little overly focused on "being a good student" and "getting it right" and "showing the teacher" rather than on spending enough time in AE. I am seeing that my capacity for glimpses of clarity seems to be affected by how much time I spend focused in the AE of your questions. My habits of thinking are very entrenched. If it's so effortless to be in AE, why do I insist on struggling with so much futile thinking?!

What I was asking is what is it exactly that has “options and choices in life”?

There are thoughts about "options and choices" but since there is no causality (I am getting clear on that) there can't possibly be any choices or options, except as thoughts about "choices or options," NOT choices about actions, nor options about outcomes. Getting this, more and more.

If there is a ‘someone’ that has “options and choices in life”, where is this ‘someone’ located?

Nowhere to be found!

I might write less and experience more and see if anything is different. :)
Now I can't possibly make sense to myself anymore... It's about time I gave up on that!!

Gratitude and love,
Danute

[forgetmenot]

Hey Danute,

I want to keep things simple and there are questions and insights in your post that will be addressed later on as I don’t want you to become overwhelmed.

Outpouring of gratitude to you for sticking with my process, which I imagine to be a dry one...

Absolutely not! I enjoy your responses and I am grateful that you are willing to look….so thank you! 

It could, but also, there seems to be so many outcomes that are matched to specific intentions, will or a desires. This could also just be a thought. (Wow!!!!!) Okay, slowly I do get glimpses. This is a big one.

Yes! You saw it! :)

What says that thoughts are in sequence, and from these ordered thoughts actions come about, or solutions are found, or more ordered thoughts arise?

More thoughts about "causality." All stories. (Getting this now!)

but could that just be more thought that says this?

Flickering awareness... (yes!)

Nice :)

What exactly is it that is taking these actions or needing solutions?

Nobody is taking any action. There are just thoughts about taking action, and sensations + thoughts about actions + thoughts about "outcomes tied to these actions and to these intentions."

Haha, yes. Thoughts + sensations = AE. What the thoughts are ABOUT is story.

I would like for you to go to this link and do the exercise written there and let me know how you went.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html


Love, Kay

[Danute]

Hello Kay,

I appreciate your reassurances of not being a dry burden. I don't know why such thoughts even come up, since I truly love working with my clients, and particularly the ones who take direction and test things out! Why hadn't I assumed that the same was true for you? Thank you!

For next 10 minutes write with- and later without the words I and me....
Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

When using "I" and "me," I feel like I am watching a movie and getting sucked into it, tightening, forgetting that I am looking at a screen. The second experience feels more detached, like watching a movie while realizing that it's not real and that none of what I see (or experience) is happening to me. It's much more relaxed.

Unconfusing it is simple- bring attention back to now and look once again

Whenever I remember to practice, everything in my AE slows down and body-tension releases. There is less thinking about "speeding forward." There is nothing to move toward, and there is no reason for anyone or anything move forward. There is still forward movement but no "thoughts of compulsive effort , personal will, or desire."

Life is happening. Looking is happening. Getting lost in the story is happening. With or without label I.

Without the label "I" the story is recognized and less confusing, and the body is less stressed.

What is not on automatic?

I am going to practice more and pay attention to "automatic" until the practice of noticing AE becomes the new normal. I will practice living without the labels I, me, or you... and watching thoughts as though each was simply automatic (since I have seen that they are.

Ilona's blog and exercises were wonderful and helpful.

Bidding you goodnight-

Love,
Danute

[forgetmenot]

Hello Danute,

For next 10 minutes write with- and later without the words I and me....
Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

When using "I" and "me," I feel like I am watching a movie and getting sucked into it, tightening, forgetting that I am looking at a screen. The second experience feels more detached, like watching a movie while realizing that it's not real and that none of what I see (or experience) is happening to me. It's much more relaxed.

Yes…“I” likes to claim ownership of everything! But it is only a thought and a thought can’t claim anything!

Listen to some really beautiful music – there is no-one listening, there is only music. Then you say: How beautiful! At that moment the music is gone and there is only this thought "How beautiful!" An “I” is projected into the past: “I heard the beautiful music”. But in fact that just is another thought.


When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is red colour experienced or is green colour experienced as the label suggests it?
Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or the labels suggest something else than what is here and now (red colour)?
Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the red colour, or green is just a word label on the experience of the red colour?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, does the redness be affected in any way as the labels suggest it?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’ or the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?


Love Kay

[Danute]

Hello Kay,

Just as an aside, I have been experiencing some changes that I don't know why I hadn't thought of reporting to you. Silly me!

One of the first things to occur was a recent release of muscular contraction around my hip area that had been causing problems related to walking for about ten years now. It's really quite amazing to me how the sensations in my legs have returned and my whole gait has improved. I feel like I am beginning to walk like someone twenty years younger, if not more! (When I say "beginning" here, I mean occasionally I regress and contract, but on the whole, there is a considerable positive change that I can't help connect to an improved level of relaxation as well.)

Another thing: All of my life, I've driven like a banshee. My first car as a teenager was an MGB sports car and you might easily imagine how I took advantage on the road! I never seemed to lose that aggressive streak on the road--until the other day! I was wrapped up in practicing AE while I was driving. All of my senses were focused on what my eyes could see and how I was experiencing the view, with a minimum attention to my thoughts. I couldn't help notice a complete absence of "burning need for speed" (and passing other, slower cars) that has been characteristic for my entire driving career. I was even a bit late that day, and the thought occurred, "Hurrying won't make one bit of difference! Disbelieving the thoughts that prompt me to rush will make all the difference in the world! I found myself wishing that I could go through my entire life this way, in no hurry, but instead, deeply immersed in the pleasurable sensation of every single moment in time, with no regard to outcome! No rushing, ever!

A third thing: I have become a different type of therapist. Somehow, I can see so much more clearly than before. I can now see more quickly through things that formerly might have pulled me in. I recognize stories for what they are. I even speak differently, referencing different things than I used to! My work seems quite a bit more effective, and much more to the point.

Beyond all of this, surely not accidentally, my client load has spontaneously increased by about 25% over the last 10 days. Quite something!

Okay, back to work. I'm sure there's more, but that was just at the top of my head.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

The sensory experience is "red " + the thought and/or image about "green."

Is red colour experienced or is green colour experienced as the label suggests it?

red color is experienced + thoughts about green (who knows what thoughts or what image about green, perhaps one or several memories of green among a million possibilities of samples of green)

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?

Nope, never ever! Even when I look at this black tabletop upon which I am now working, there are a million ways I can think about that reality. There is a potential of a million to one correspondences. Yikes!

Or the labels suggest something else than what is here and now (red colour)?

Yes, the labels suggest something else, potentially many other suggestions: the color green, the shapes of the letters GREEN, shouting (all caps), insanity, confusion, obstinacy, obfuscation, deliberate misleading, literally anything!

Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the red colour, or green is just a word label on the experience of the red colour?

The latter. GREEN is just a word label + AE of the color red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, does the redness be affected in any way as the labels suggest it?

Well, if I understand this question correctly, the redness is not affected at all by the labels or by what the words actually or generally represent.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’ or the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The redness does not become anything different, and the labels have no effect whatsoever on reality. They may have an effect on thoughts about reality, but not on reality itself.

I loved these questions, especially the last two ones. Labels and thoughts have absolutely no effect on reality. Reality can be controlled by nobody. Thoughts are completely unreal, and even possibly meaningless. Their meaning is just story. No story has any reality.

I am enjoying Ilona's blogs in addition to the work we do. Thank you for pointing them out to me.

I feel truly blessed in this exchange with you, and can't thank you enough for your guidance Kay!

<3
Love,
Danute

[Danute]

Oh, and most importantly, I am laughing more!

https://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=IiRJZ-2C8Wo

[forgetmenot]

Good evening Danute,

Thank you for sharing what you have been noticing. I am smiling as I can relate to the “I recognize stories for what they are” when it comes to your clients.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

The sensory experience is "red " + the thought and/or image about "green."

Spot on!

Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the red colour, or green is just a word label on the experience of the red colour?

The latter. GREEN is just a word label + AE of the color red.

Yes, and the label ‘green’ is AE of thought

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, does the redness be affected in any way as the labels suggest it?

Well, if I understand this question correctly, the redness is not affected at all by the labels or by what the words actually or generally represent.

Yes! :)

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’ or the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The redness does not become anything different, and the labels have no effect whatsoever on reality. They may have an effect on thoughts about reality, but not on reality itself.

So, if you take this one step further. If the red colour was inherently what you are, can anything affect ‘you’? Can any label change what you are?

I loved these questions, especially the last two ones. Labels and thoughts have absolutely no effect on reality. Reality can be controlled by nobody. Thoughts are completely unreal, and even possibly meaningless. Their meaning is just story. No story has any reality.

Thoughts are meaningless. Have a look…what gives meaning to thought? More thoughts?

I am enjoying Ilona's blogs in addition to the work we do. Thank you for pointing them out to me.

That’s good. Did you ever read the book Gateless Gatecrashers? There is a downloadable PDF of the book on the Forum.

http://liberationunleashed.com/books/

I feel truly blessed in this exchange with you, and can't thank you enough for your guidance Kay!

Thank you, Danute, it goes both ways :)

Oh, and most importantly, I am laughing more!

Haha…thank you for the Youtube clip…isn’t laughter infectious! And yes, more importantly you are laughing more….great to hear!! :)


Okay, another exercise.

If you were in a desert, dying of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink ‘real’ water?

Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you two options:
(1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written on it, and
(2) in my right hand there is a bottle of water.

Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the water?

So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual experience (AE) of thought, quench your thirst?
Labels are ‘real’ as appearing thoughts (like the word ‘water’ on the piece of paper) but its ‘content’, what the thought is ABOUT (the story ABOUT water) is not ‘real’ and is NOT the AE of ‘content’ (‘water’).

Is this clear?

Much love, Kay

[Danute]

Hello Kay,

So, if you take this one step further. If the red colour was inherently what you are, can anything affect ‘you’? Can any label change what you are?

No thought (no label) can change "me."

A thought occurs that the AE of "thoughts about pain" can be replaced with "thoughts about comfort" -perhaps when there occurs a change in focus (awareness.) Not that there is anyone or anything that can "cause" a substitution of any thought abut pain" for thoughts about "comfort or peace or security and protection from pain..."

...but you see, Kay, where I am trying to go with this: to have an effect on the AE of thoughts! Somehow, I suspect I am--again--attempting to circumvent the rules for seeing what you want me to look at, since "nothing and nobody can "cause" a substitution of thoughts or of AE..., even if someone ever even really existed.

There seems to be no choice at all but to surrender. But what does it even mean to surrender, when there is nobody there to surrender (nor surrender "what" to "whom?!")

And all these thoughts are meaningless...

That’s good. Did you ever read the book Gateless Gatecrashers? There is a downloadable PDF of the book on the Forum.

Yes, I read halfway through and loved it. I found myself wanting to experience such a breakthrough and that is when I registered on this website.

I think that everything you wanted me to know about thoughts seems now clear:

Thoughts are not real, they are only labels, beliefs.
"I" is a thought. It does not exist.
Thoughts cannot be controlled, nor can thoughts cause anything to happen or to change.
I cannot be controlled (since I don't even exist anyway), nor can I cause anything to happen or to change. A thought cannot make something happen.
The AE of thoughts is real.
Sensations (the five senses) are real.
Nothing else exists, and even what does exist cannot be changed or controlled (by whom or by what?)

I am in the middle of a painful story, but I feel no discomfort. My income has been stopped, even thought it is due and forthcoming. I have been without a paycheck for 6 weeks now, with all credit resources stretched. Normally, I would be in freak-out mode, but at this point, I am just frustrated and laughing. Thoughts arise, "Gee, I wonder what I should do? I will do whatever I think is the best to do, and I can't really control what I will choose to do. It might be the right thing, it might not. I can't help it very much by getting upset, regardless." This is SO GOOD for me to practice at this time. I really don't care what happens. I am so tired of believing my fearful stories! They are losing their hold on me. Life is good. It has always been that way!

This is really helping me in concrete ways. There is no denial, just an acceptance of reality. There is no paralysis, I must do something. I am trying different things to get the impasse resolved. It is all happening in good time. Not only am I at peace, but I have a story about how strong and sensible I am... how I am moving toward that gate every day! It's a story, but I'm enjoying and finding peace in it, whether it's true or not. Time will tell... I'm just here for the ride.

LOVE,
Danute

[Danute]

No response to the desert exercise because all of this about labels is completely obvious now. Yes, very clear!

[forgetmenot]

Hey Danute,

Reading your post and it’s clear that you are clear about thoughts. I will address some of things that you mentioned in your post, even though you are aware that nobody/nothing is controlling, deciding, choosing or doing.

A thought occurs that the AE of "thoughts about pain" can be replaced with "thoughts about comfort" -perhaps when there occurs a change in focus (awareness.) Not that there is anyone or anything that can "cause" a substitution of any thought about pain" for thoughts about "comfort or peace or security and protection from pain..."

What is it that wants a change in focus from “pain” to “comfort”?
Thoughts about wanting, are experience of thought, not experience of wanting.

What is it that says there is a difference between “pain” and “comfort”?
Does the sensation itself, labelled “pain”, suggest in any way that it is in pain?
And the sensation labelled “peace”, does it suggest in any way that is it peaceful, or that a minute ago it was in pain?

The label “pain” is the AE of thought, if it was the AE of pain, then the word “pain” would cause pain.

...but you see, Kay, where I am trying to go with this: to have an effect on the AE of thoughts! Somehow, I suspect I am--again--attempting to circumvent the rules for seeing what you want me to look at, since "nothing and nobody can "cause" a substitution of thoughts or of AE..., even if someone ever even really existed.

It sounds to me like you have high expectations of yourself and that there is a thought that says ‘you shouldn’t have thoughts about wanting thoughts to change’. Is that not just another thought?

There seems to be no choice at all but to surrender. But what does it even mean to surrender, when there is nobody there to surrender (nor surrender "what" to "whom?!")

Exactly. There is nothing that can surrender and to whom or what is the surrendering being done to? Thoughts about “surrender” are AE of thought, not experience of surrender. And when seeing this, what happens? Does it bring up fear, hopelessness...what happens?

And all these thoughts are meaningless...

Can you tell me a bit more about this sentence? What is it that you are feeling when you see that all thought are meaningless?

Thoughts are not real, they are only labels, beliefs.
"I" is a thought. It does not exist.
Thoughts cannot be controlled, nor can thoughts cause anything to happen or to change.
I cannot be controlled (since I don't even exist anyway), nor can I cause anything to happen or to change. A thought cannot make something happen.
The AE of thoughts is real.
Sensations (the five senses) are real.
Nothing else exists, and even what does exist cannot be changed or controlled (by whom or by what?)

Yes…you have hit the nail on the head.

I am in the middle of a painful story, but I feel no discomfort. My income has been stopped, even thought it is due and forthcoming. I have been without a paycheck for 6 weeks now, with all credit resources stretched. Normally, I would be in freak-out mode, but at this point, I am just frustrated and laughing. Thoughts arise, "Gee, I wonder what I should do? I will do whatever I think is the best to do, and I can't really control what I will choose to do. It might be the right thing, it might not. I can't help it very much by getting upset, regardless." This is SO GOOD for me to practice at this time. I really don't care what happens. I am so tired of believing my fearful stories! They are losing their hold on me. Life is good. It has always been that way!

I was given this exercise to help me determine AE from story, especially when ‘life’ seemed to be serving up lemons. I thought you might benefit from it.

“What thought tends to do is add “virtual layers” about experience, by adding story about what IS. The more complex the idea, the more “virtual layers” have been added. So what needs to happen is to strip the layers of story away, until all that remains is the bare bones. And, there is way to determine when you have stripped away all the layers that are pure fantasy, and you have only the bare bones left. If you can replace the thought with “blahblahblah” and what it was referring to remains, you know you are down to the bare bones.

So, for example: thought says: “There is sound.” Now, replace the thought with “blahblahblah.” Look at experience, with thought only saying “blahbahblah.” Is there still sound? If yes, that thought is referring to actual experience. That’s a “bare bones” thought, with all additional story layers stripped.

Now, if thought says: “I am hearing that sound,” replace the thought with “blahblahblah.” Look at experience, with thought only saying “blahblahblah.”

Is there a person hearing, without the thought saying so? If no, then you know that the thought has added “virtual layers.” It’s fantasy, and it isn’t confirmed as actual experience, because what it was saying didn’t remain when the thought was replaced with “blahblahblah.”

That’s the inquiry. So for every thought that comes up, to determine whether it is referring to actual experience or whether it is pure fantasy, replace it with “blahblahblah” and check whether what it was referring to remains.”

Much love & hugs
Kay

[Danute]

Dearest Kay,

I feel my gratitude outpouring... continuing to read Gatecrashers again, and noticing how different it is the second time I go over the material.

I have written pages and pages, and re-read them again and again before sending them to you. They begin very, very long, and then I see through certain things and then eliminate them, so as not to waste your reading time...
I think I am beginning to see how meaningless many of my ideas are: just stories, and many layers of them.

Ilona: So are you through? Do you have any questions? Is everything crystal clear?


Tom: I really can’t say that I am. I would like to sit with this a while and get back to you. Examine it, live with it and deepen it. If I have any questions, I hope you don’t mind if I come back to you. But I will let you live your conventional life again, and me mine.
Thank you for your kindness and efforts. If I can help you in any way please let me know without hesitation.

Ilona: That is good idea—to let it sink in. From what I see, the shift has already happened, you just need to let it unfold. There is nothing left to do but to relax and notice the obvious. Please feel free to ask anything at all and report back when it feels right.

I feel that is exactly where I am: "There is nothing left to do but to relax and notice the obvious"

I have "noticed" it and experienced it a few times already. It doesn't quite "stick" but I have tasted it.

What is it that wants a change in focus from “pain” to “comfort”?
Thoughts about wanting, are experience of thought, not experience of wanting.

No such thing as wanting. It's a thought, a label.

Yet, I am motivated to return to this work, again and again, because it holds the promise of a new way of seeing that feels wonderful when I can touch it! This is the flower reaching towards the sun!

Thoughts about wanting, are experience of thought, not experience of wanting.

I have been falling for this thought called "wanting." I have been mis-taking it for real.

What is it that says there is a difference between “pain” and “comfort”?

I have been playing with thought experiments about pain for a long time. I have the capacity for sensations of great pain without great discomfort, but instead with curiosity. I have also tried this exercise with thoughts of deep despair, and found the thoughts laughable (stories) in the end! I'm just saying, I know how to do this - it works! I can see it happening, but it's not to me!

And the sensation labelled “peace”, does it suggest in any way that is it peaceful, or that a minute ago it was in pain?

OMG, there is no such thing as peace. It is just a thought about relaxation and about many other assumptions that are nonsense + body sensations that seem to be a response to the thoughts. So I don't have to "believe anything about peace!" It's another story, a layer of thought...

Yikes! How my mind sees the illusion, yet I wonder why my body is not onboard with this? Silly thought! My body is fine, albeit still a little contracted yet. What is there to be onboard or not onboard? I can notice the body sensation, but it has no meaning. Contracting it is like a refusal to feel fully. It's a fear of pain... yet, I am NOT afraid of physical pain. I am afraid of my crazy ideas about how "guilty I am of creating thoughts that scare my body into contracting."

It sounds to me like you have high expectations of yourself and that there is a thought that says ‘you shouldn’t have thoughts about wanting thoughts to change’. Is that not just another thought?

Well, that's a helpful observation. I don't have to change any of these thoughts, of which I seem critical and disapproving (more thoughts)! I just have to see, once and for all, that none of these thoughts are to be believed.

If I can learn to notice, observe, be more aware, more discriminating in awareness, I will learn to see the difference between what's real and what's not real, and your final exercise is perfect for that!!

There is nothing that can surrender and to whom or what is the surrendering being done to? Thoughts about “surrender” are AE of thought, not experience of surrender. And when seeing this, what happens? Does it bring up fear, hopelessness...what happens?

When seeing this, a lightness is felt, a giddiness, a happiness.

Can you tell me a bit more about this sentence? What is it that you are feeling when you see that all thought are meaningless?

Incredible happiness, freedom, lightness of being. Some definitely pleasurabe AE!

I was given this exercise to help me determine AE from story, especially when ‘life’ seemed to be serving up lemons. I thought you might benefit from it.

I LOVE your exercise!!! It is so helpful. That is a great "mantra;" Blahblahblahblah!

So what needs to happen is to strip the layers of story away, until all that remains is the bare bones.

Now that's something I can do today, all day! Nothing but observe where and how awareness focuses, observe the actions that thoughts indicate for Danute to take, and notice how many of them are simply lies about what there is to do (or think)!

There is always more for me to do... but I am anticipating a time when all time stops for me. I can sense it just around the next bend ;) (NO bend, no time, no me anticipating... all thoughts that have their different AE's!)

Thank you for what you do Kay <3 <3 <3 <3

Much love,
Danute

[forgetmenot]

Hi Danute,

Thoughts about wanting, are experience of thought, not experience of wanting.

I have been falling for this thought called "wanting." I have been mis-taking it for real.

What exactly is it that has “been falling for this thought called ‘wanting’”?
Is not the thought “I have been falling for this thought called ‘wanting’” just another thought? As is the thought “I have been mistaking it for real”.
Are not both these thoughts just appearing and are known to you as thoughts?

And the sensation labelled “peace”, does it suggest in any way that is it peaceful, or that a minute ago it was in pain?

OMG, there is no such thing as peace. It is just a thought about relaxation and about many other assumptions that are nonsense + body sensations that seem to be a response to the thoughts. So I don't have to "believe anything about peace!" It's another story, a layer of thought...

Yup! What are deemed as positive thoughts are just thoughts too and have no meaning either!

Yikes! How my mind sees the illusion, yet I wonder why my body is not onboard with this? Silly thought! My body is fine, albeit still a little contracted yet. What is there to be onboard or not onboard? I can notice the body sensation, but it has no meaning. Contracting it is like a refusal to feel fully.

Tell me where the “mind” is located and what it looks.
And also tells me how the “mind sees”.
You + mind + body = 3. That makes three! There isn’t a ‘you’, in a ‘body’ with a ‘mind’.

It's a fear of pain... yet, I am NOT afraid of physical pain. I am afraid of my crazy ideas about how "guilty I am of creating thoughts that scare my body into contracting."

What is it exactly that can be “guilty”?
What is the AE of guilt?
Does the sensation labelled “guilt” suggest in anyway that it is guilty?
What exactly is it that is “afraid of crazy ideas”?
Where exactly is the “I” located that is or isn’t “afraid of physical pain”?
What is the AE of pain?

There is no such thing as “my body”. (We will be looking at the body later on)

Does the sensation labelled “contraction” suggest in any way that it is located in a body?
Does the sensation labelled “contraction” suggest in any way that it is a contraction? Or is it just a sensation labelled “contraction”?

It sounds to me like you have high expectations of yourself and that there is a thought that says ‘you shouldn’t have thoughts about wanting thoughts to change’. Is that not just another thought?

Well, that's a helpful observation. I don't have to change any of these thoughts, of which I seem critical and disapproving (more thoughts)! I just have to see, once and for all, that none of these thoughts are to be believed.

The belief that you “are believing thoughts” is itself just a thought.
What is the AE of “believing”?
Can you control thoughts? No….so you can’t even stop the thought that says “I just have to see, once and for all, that none of these thoughts are to be believed”.
Look carefully here….what is it that can be believing anything?

If I can learn to notice, observe, be more aware, more discriminating in awareness, I will learn to see the difference between what's real and what's not real, and your final exercise is perfect for that!!

Good luck with this! This is a good way to hold onto the belief that you are a separate individual and can control, do, think, choose and decide!
Looking happens when it happens, doing the 'blahblahblah' exercise happens when it happens, the seeming "believing thoughts" happens when it happens and so on!

Where is the separate individual that can choose?
What exactly is it that can “learn to notice, observe, be more aware, more discriminating in awareness”?
What exactly is it that can “learn” anything?

Everything is known to you. The thoughts that ‘appear’ are known to you otherwise you wouldn’t be knowing (‘aware’ of) them. Knowing/known are one and the same. The same goes for smell, taste, sound, sensation and thoughts!

Thoughts are descriptive whereas experience itself is indescribable.
Describe what coffee tastes like
Describe the colour yellow
Describe the smell of new born baby
Describe the sound of a car horn
Describe the sensation labelled ‘pain’
Describe a thought

Can you tell me a bit more about this sentence? What is it that you are feeling when you see that all thought are meaningless?

Incredible happiness, freedom, lightness of being. Some definitely pleasurabe AE!

Does a sensation know the difference between pleasure or pain, happiness or sadness, heaviness or lightness?

Does a thought know the difference between pleasure or pain, happiness or sadness, heaviness or lightness?

Does the image labelled ‘body’ know the difference between pleasure or pain, happiness or sadness, heaviness or lightness?

So what is it exactly that could ‘feel’ pleasure or pain, happiness or sadness, heaviness or lightness?

I was given this exercise to help me determine AE from story, especially when ‘life’ seemed to be serving up lemons. I thought you might benefit from it.

I LOVE your exercise!!! It is so helpful. That is a great "mantra;" Blahblahblahblah!
So what needs to happen is to strip the layers of story away, until all that remains is the bare bones.

Are you referring to stories? Or is there still an expectation that all stories will fall away and Cinderella will live happily ever after? ‘Life’ goes on just the same as it is ‘today’. Stories may or may not be seen as stories and that is just what is happening. It is happening to no one.

Now that's something I can do today, all day! Nothing but observe where and how awareness focuses, observe the actions that thoughts indicate for Danute to take, and notice how many of them are simply lies about what there is to do (or think)!

Where is the entity labelled “awareness” located? What does it look like?
How does the label “awareness” focus and observe actions?
What exactly is it that is doing actions?
Where exactly is Danute located? Describe the location to me in detail please.
What is choosing whether a thought is a lie or not?

I have asked lots of questions. Please answer each question.

Much love, Kay

[Danute]

Hello Kay,

I'm on it!

I have been falling for this thought called "wanting." I have been mis-taking it for real.

What exactly is it that has “been falling for this thought called ‘wanting’”?

Is not the thought “I have been falling for this thought called ‘wanting’” just another thought? As is the thought “I have been mistaking it for real”.
Are not both these thoughts just appearing and are known to you as thoughts?

Yes, what indeed to all of that? Nothing and nobody has been falling for anything. Just a thought about falling for this thought called "wanting."

Tell me where the “mind” is located and what it looks [looks at? looks like? or "what is that looks?].
And also tells me how the “mind sees”.
You + mind + body = 3. That makes three! There isn’t a ‘you’, in a ‘body’ with a ‘mind’.

I don't know where this mind is but dang it sure seems to get busy and in trouble over thoughts!
Mind can't be found, not by anyone
There is no mind to see anything. ("Seeing" occurs either as thinking, or as images, like the color red, a car, a tree...)

What is it exactly that can be “guilty”?

Nothing can be guilty, on any level.
But I did use the word as a synonym for "responsible" so, what is it exactly that can be responsible for "creating thoughts that scare my body into contracting?

Basically, I am feeling despair over the thought of not being able to have any effect on my experience... if all of this is true. If there is nothing and nobody to have any effect on anything, then why bother with the experience at all. I'd rather participate, not just be an observer. OMG that's not even true! I'd rather watch a good movie than dive into real life.... :( and that's another depressing thought!

I am a bit overwhelmed with depression today. Withdrawing from caffeine does that to me, but this time, minus any headache! That, in itself is a HUGE change, for which I credit this work. There can be no other explanation (that I can think of.)

What is the AE of guilt? [what is the AE of despair?]

Heaviness in my chest + thoughts about "painful things over which I believe I should learn to let go of controlling or hoping to ameliorate" + real tears + an ache in my throat. (I'm presently crying)

These discussions are suddenly highlighting my awareness of a belief that there is nothing I can do to experience love -- no matter who I am or who I am not! Same thing either way.

Believing in no" I" and no causality seems--to me--to require to stop trying to change anything, particularly to not try to change my present condition of thinking "not able to feel love," ....

Blahblahblahblah. Feels better for the moment.

Does the sensation labelled “guilt” [it's not so much guilt as despair] suggest in anyway that it is guilty [that despair means anything]?

Well, no. No guilt, no despair, but thoughts of despair... believing a story that is just blahblahblah.

Kay, I want to stop for tonight. It's late and I feel better just sitting in AE without my thoughts or thinking about answers to these questions. I will finish tomorrow.

I'm wondering if is this what you wanted to happen... for me to become exhausted about the thinking and finally come face to face with my feelings? If so, it worked. I am in a pit, and it's actually feeling good to feel without any more thinking!) I'm going to sit with this.

With love,
Danute

[forgetmenot]

Hi Danute,

Your posts are filling up with story telling. I am not interested in stories. You say you have seen the difference between thoughts and contents and yet stories are still appearing. You have said that you see that there is no one/nothing can believe and yet you are still talking about believing stories. I don't want to read in one post that you "see that there is no believer" and then in the next post there is a post about "believing thoughts". You either see that there is no 'believer or believing' or you don't. If you don't let me know so I can adjust my pointing.

I would like for posts to be kept short and clear on what is being 'seen' through by questions and exercises that are pointing to 'seeing'. Your posts are drifting off into stories and our posts are getting longer and longer.

There seems to be an idea that there are two levels. The level of actual experience and the level of ‘living life in the dream’. There are no levels. There isn’t a practice of AE and then day to day living! Actual experience happens constantly, it doesn’t take special practice, it’s just becoming aware of what is actually happening in the moment and recognising that the rest is story. But there is no ‘special talk’ with Kay on LU and then a gap of ‘living life’ and then back to ‘special talk’. That’s the same as “I go to church on Sunday and practice my faith and the rest of the week I just live life normally!” There is NO ONE/NOTHING LIVING A LIFE – PERIOD.

Said with Love,
Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hi Danute,

So that posts don’t become long and unwieldy, like that have become, I am only going to respond to what needs to be looked at again. So, we start again from this point on.

What is the AE of guilt? [what is the AE of despair?]

Heaviness in my chest + thoughts about "painful things over which I believe I should learn to let go of controlling or hoping to ameliorate" + real tears + an ache in my throat. (I'm presently crying)

You are adding story to AE. There is no “heaviness in my chest or “ache in my throat”. There is JUST sensation; the rest is description which is thought story.

The AE of despair is thought + sensation + image

The label “despair” is the AE of thought and NOT the AE of despair (what can be in despair – nothing!)
The sensation labelled “despair/depression” is AE of sensation and NOT AE of despair/depression
The image labelled “body” is AE of image and NOT AE of body or despair
The sound labelled “crying” is the AE of sound and NOT the AE of crying
The taste labelled “salty tears” is the AE of taste and NOT the AE of salty tears
The sensation labelled “tears running down my cheek” is the AE of sensation and NOT the AE of tears or cheeks
The sensation labelled 'stuffy nose from crying" is the AE of sensation and NOT the AE of a stuffy nose from crying

Do you see this? Is this clear?

I want to go back to the desert exercise and I would like for you to tell me what you 'see' with this exercise.

If you were in a desert, dying of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink ‘real’ water?

Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you two options:

(1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written on it, and
(2) in my right hand there is a bottle of water.

Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the water?

So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual experience (AE) of thought, quench your thirst?

Labels are ‘real’ as appearing thoughts (like the word ‘water’ on the piece of paper) but its ‘content’, what the thought is ABOUT (the story ABOUT water) is not ‘real’ and is NOT the AE of ‘water’.

Is this clear?

Love Kay