Stickman requests a guide

[Stickman]

Ok, if i'm really honest about the experience, when i turn the hand over it just feels like the hand turns over and nothing happens in the mind, no matter how much i think about directing the movement of it. I'm reluctant to say things like that because i have an understanding of the physiology and know that the mind is directing the movement. The way things seem often isn't how they actualy are.

[Aragon]

Hi Darren,

Thanks for your posts – and your honesty – and sorry I’ve been a bit tied up with things today, so it’s taken a while to get back to you. Also, thanks for formatting the response with line breaks as that’s much easier to read. I wait with anticipation for the use of the quote function ;-)

Yeah, there's something missing here. I am sitting in the experience and then trying to put that into words but somehow you aren't excepting that explanaton or i'm not viewing it in the way you want me to or i need to find a different language. Or i'm just not seeing it or experiencing it in the way you want me to. I can't see where the gap is at the moment.

I understand what you are saying here. Let me try to explain it in another way. It’s like we have some lego blocks. What you are giving me is a load of blocks stuck together, whereas I want just the single blocks. The single blocks are the bare minimum in terms of conceptual labels needed to describe experience.

So I am going to give you eight blocks: Sight, sound, smell, taste, touch/feeling, thought-label, thought-story, mental-image. These obviously represent the senses (including thought).

I am suggesting to you that you can explain your experience just using these blocks. Whatever concept you bring, you don’t need more than this – memory, connection, anything. If you can find more than this I am suggesting this is just story, it is not what is actually happening. It is the content-of-thought.

So if you go back to the exercise of listening to a sound outside. What is actual experience of hearing a ‘car’, for example. What is present? Is anything present over and above these eight blocks I have given you. I mean ACTUALLY present – can you find it? If so, what?

And again, with the hand…. physiology is just a thought-story about what is happening. I’m asking you to look outside the thought-story. So thought says, “I know the physiology….” but we need to look outside of thought to see if that conceptual model is true.

Even science seems to have now come to the understanding that conventional way of looking at this is not actually how it is, much as this view is still the common understanding.

Given you have made a breakthrough by admitting what is seen and what you understand differ, I invite you to repeat the exercises accepting provisionally that what you understand to be true about this may be incorrect, and just see what you find.

Hope that helps,

Aragon

[Stickman]

That's really helpful. Thanks. I'll get back to you.

[Stickman]

Ok. With the sounds there come mental images, thought labels, thought stories and a 'thought voice' which notes and questions. There's also a sense of Little Me floating around in the background.

With the hand exercise, i hate to say it, but i don't experience anything happening other than the movement of the hand!

[Aragon]

Hi Darren,

Great! But can you give me more info:

mental images, thought labels, thought stories and a 'thought voice' which notes and questions.

What mental images arise? What thought labels? What thought-stories? What questions?

Can you run me through it please?

Aragon

[Aragon]

Also,

With the hand exercise, i hate to say it, but i don't experience anything happening other than the movement of the hand!

Can you run with this for a while. Tell me what comes up when you let this thought in:

There is no self at all, no manager, no controller, no doer, thinker, watcher, none as in zero. All there is is life flowing freely, as one movement of totality, that includes all.

Speak soon,

Aragon

[Stickman]

Ok. So, listening to sounds goes like this..voice-image of friend-blond hair-black coat with fur collar, pretty face, smile. Shower running-image of shower curtain and head arises. Water flowing image. Sound of breath in nose-image of hairy nostrils. Sound of laptop gets a thought label-laptop with no image. Sound of wind leads to an image of the surrounding buildings and a white cloud skyscape.

When i let the 'no self' thought in as you wrote it there is a deep, visceral, sobering release. There's resistance to it. A voice shouting that it can't be true. Your words have a deep, sobering impact. A little rational voice tries to jump up in defence, with arguments, but something deeper and bigger seems to know that's limited and futile. Feels like a deeper truth is unfolding. Need to let it flow, allow it to move. Bodily tensions releasing. Rational resistance. Letting go. Desire to understand, rationalise, conceptualise, so 'i' can explain it and share it with others. Stillness. Spaciousness. Openness. Chatty voice that wants to own. Desire for ideas, concepts and explanations. Heart shiver. There is 'acting out.' Playing a character. There is movement and flow. But the self view shouts loud. Grasping and clinging. Ideas. Movement happens as response. The owner, the actor, the character...is a construct. Still a sense of freedom of choice. Stillness. Spacicousness. Sense of ability to observe, weigh up and decide before acting. Movement. Pulled away. Things to do...

[Aragon]

Hi Darren,

Looking good. Can you stay with this for a while. Also, sit in the park or something....

Does the sun need a decision to shine? The leaf to be blown across the street? The cloud to move across the sky? The dog to chase the chat? The mum to pick up the baby?

Notice how life is happening.....

Does thought make the sun rise? Or does the sun just rise? Does the body just breathe?

Does thought instigate or just describe?

I'm not asking you for an intellectual answer. I'm asking you to look.

Be well,

Aragon.

[Stickman]

Movement and response. The body just breathes but breathing can be controlled to a degree. Creation. Creation knows? Rising and falling. Movement and flow. Breathing can be paused or deepened, held or blown out fully. Does that need a decision? Stillness. Being. Life is moving. Hunger arises followed by thought of movement. Damn. Things arise and then thoughts jump on them! Then movement happens. Based on knowing? Innate knowing in animals? All the organs...happening...knowing..programmed? Movement.

[Aragon]

Hi Darren,

Things arise and then thoughts jump on them!

Yes, you could put it like that,
Stay with this a while. Watch yourself. Watch the world...

Let's look at these thoughts that are said to somehow control stuff. Tell me, from experience, from looking, not using any model you've learned....

- Where do thoughts come from (in experience)?
- Where do they go?
- Can you decide the content of your next thought?
- Can you stop thought (say for 5 minutes)?
- What evidence is there, in this current moment, that the thought of one minute ago actually occurred?
- In what sense (from experience) are thoughts controlled?

Please answer every question so I can see which answer relates to which question.

Many thanks,

Aragon

[Stickman]

Thoughts arise in response to a question, to a sound, to touch, to a sense of tiredness, so..in response to a sensed stimulus. Then they roll on, one leading to another to another. And spontaneously in the mind, they arise.

In response to a problem posed comes active thinking. Application of thinking towards finding a solution. Sustained and focused.

Where do they go? They fade away, roll into another thought.

I can pluck a topic out of the mind...rock n roll....then an image of the Sex Pistols comes to mind. Mmmm, it's like a scanning process..an opening up to a topic and then a topic comes...gardening, coastal towns, holidays and one of them is latched on to. So, there seems to be a certain degree of active control. Or has that just been the response to you asking me whether i can decide the content of my next thought?

I'm going to think about Kinder eggs! There you go. Job done. : )

Stopping thought is hard. It can be quietened down.

The evidence for the thought occurring is recall of the Sex Pistols and Kinder eggs without having to read what was just said.

The thoughts are controlled because with awareness i can decide what we will talk about. Football. Then we could discuss all the latest issues that we've read about. I can actively choose to think and talk about football.

[Aragon]

Hi Darren,

Thoughts arise in response to a question, to a sound, to touch, to a sense of tiredness, so..in response to a sensed stimulus. Then they roll on, one leading to another to another. And spontaneously in the mind, they arise.

- Where do they arise (in experience)? Do they have location?

In response to a problem posed comes active thinking. Application of thinking towards finding a solution. Sustained and focused.

Active thinking? See below

Or has that just been the response to you asking me whether i can decide the content of my next thought?

You tell me?

I'm going to think about Kinder eggs! There you go. Job done. : )

I am going to think about…… Does the {thought-label and/or mental image} ‘Kinder Eggs’ just arise, or was it known prior to it arising, that that {thought-label and/or mental image} ‘Kinder Eggs’ would arise?

Think of a number between 1 and 10…..

Did a couple of options arise, then one was apparently chosen? Were the couple of options chosen, or did they just appear. Was one chosen, or one became more apparent and then another thought ‘said’ it was chosen?

Look closer. How does this work…

Stopping thought is hard. It can be quietened down.

As being aware of thought occurs, thought appears to calm down?

The evidence for the thought occurring is recall of the Sex Pistols and Kinder eggs without having to read what was just said.

• - Thought 1: I just created a thought about Kinder Eggs
  - Thought 2: Now I feel a bit hungry
  - Thought 3: I wonder what is in the fridge?
  - Thought 4: Maybe I will order a pizza

Are thoughts aware of each other? Are thoughts aware in any way, or do they appear ‘in awareness’?

Does a thought know another thought? Does Thought 1 know Thought 2?

Is there any evidence for Thought 1 at the time of Thought 4, or is the evidence of Thought 1 only present as the content of the currently occurring thought (e.g. Thought 5: I thought about a Kinder Egg a while ago).

Do thoughts have agency (do they ‘do’ something), or does their content just conceptualise what is happening?

Do Thoughts 1 to 4 constitute thinking, or are they just four thoughts, said to be thinking by another thought?


Again, please answer all questions, so I can understand which one you are answering.

Thanks,

Aragon

[Stickman]

Well...they magically bubble up in the middle of the cranium somewhere.

There's a flow here, isn't there? One thing leading to another. Connected. A stream.

It seems that there is some movement in the mind towards options, like it opens to a back catalogue and then images arise. That movement stimuated by our conversation. Then one image becomes more obvious and is held in awareness and put forward as an example.

The numbers. Yes, one appears and then a thought says it was chosen.

With awareness of thoughts for long enough they calm down, yes. And awareness can be dwelt in.

Thoughts appear in awareness. Awareness can know thought 1 and thought 2 but thoughts don't have awareness.

Haha! Yeah, thought 5 is recalling thought 1.

Thoughts guide the agency of awareness, which steers the speech and moves the body.


Yeah, a flow of thoughts based on previous conditions. Held in awareness. That awareness in combination with the body, i call 'me.' 'Me' as a separate unit to you. Thank you!! This is great.

[Aragon]

Hi Darren,

Well...they magically bubble up in the middle of the cranium somewhere.

Okay, remember the ‘lego’ bricks I gave you. What is actual experience of 'cranium'

There's a flow here, isn't there? One thing leading to another. Connected. A stream.

- Could we say that in dependence on the sensation labelled ‘hunger’, a thought ‘I am hungry’ arises? Or in dependence on the wind, (the ground, the earth, the tree,) the paper bag is blown across the road?

- Though this can be a useful pointer to usurp the notion of agency, isn’t it just another conceptual description of something, another finger pointing at the moon?

It seems that there is some movement in the mind towards options, like it opens to a back catalogue and then images arise. That movement stimuated by our conversation. Then one image becomes more obvious and is held in awareness and put forward as an example.

- this is a description, not lego blocks.

The numbers. Yes, one appears and then a thought says it was chosen.

-Yes, see how this happens a lot with thought. Notice, how often does thought jump in after the action, stating a claim about what happened (poetically speaking, as thought does not ‘do’ anything).

With awareness of thoughts for long enough they calm down, yes. And awareness can be dwelt in.

- You seem to posit awareness, impute awareness, but can you find it?

- There is awareness of sound, but can you find two things – sound and awareness? We’re going to look at the body soon, but still, this question is worth looking at. Have you ever found awareness without an object of awareness? Have you ever found two things?

Thoughts appear in awareness. Awareness can know thought 1 and thought 2 but thoughts don't have awareness.

- Hmmm! Awareness again. This awareness that inhabits the body is just a self, a me, by the back door, so to speak.

- But yes, thoughts do not have awareness

Haha! Yeah, thought 5 is recalling thought 1.

- Is there any evidence of thought 1 actually occurring?

- It’s like this…. do you have any evidence of yesterday? Think of something that happened yesterday – what is actual experience of yesterday(hint: use lego bricks)?

Thoughts guide the agency of awareness, which steers the speech and moves the body.

- This is just another story, idea, content-of-thought. You are not answering from direct experience (what is happening now). You said thought had no awareness and now it is guiding awareness. It is just another story.

Again. I hope that helps. Speak soon,

Aragon

[Stickman]

Actual experience of cranium is zero just sitting here. I can feel the scalp and move it. I can tap the cranium and a mental image of a skull arises.

Yes, a stream of sensations and thoughts. "Isn't it just another finger pointing at the moon?" This is puzzling me? I think i've come from, and am still stuck in, a state of ignorance. The concepts and ideas seem to be the things that make sense of the experience; make it 'known.' Otherwise i would just be blindly walking through the windy day and never even noticing that something was blowing the bag around. I wouldn't have questioned anything; just gone about foraging and fixing everything to suit me and my own needs.

I have a strong sense of agency. Are you saying there is no such thing at all?

"Thought does not 'do' anything." Mmmmmmm..another one to ponder and EXPERIENCE! So, thoughts lead to things happening? Dry mouth is noticed in the mind. The thought 'thirsty' arises. The body gets up and goes to the kitchen. This can be done knowingly, clearly, in awareness, or on autopilot whilst thinking about the solicitor's appointment later today.

"Thought jumps in after the action." Can't thought precede the action? I haven't got up to get a drink yet. I've deliberately delayed the process. There has been an intervention. Now i can sit here pondering what i will get to drink. Water, soya milk, cordial? I can ponder the infromation stored in the mind about each of the options. I could have coffee but the mind remembers the negative effects of coffee so i'll choose decaff or have water instead. Agency.

Challenging awareness almost causes a short circuit!! There IS awareness. Of sights, sounds, touch, smell, thoughts, memories..cold hands, laptop whirring, banging noise outside, thoughts, images in vision. Without awareness, none of these things would be known. Audio awareness is there. It will be activated by a sound vibration, like a spiders web is moved by the wind or a fly. There is a sense of sitting in open awareness, apprehending all that comes to the senses as the spider apprehends all that falls into it's web. The web is there waiting.

My evidence for thought 1 is that i wrote it down and can go back and read it then recall it occurring.

Actual existence of yesterday is a thought story but i can verify that roughly with other people and i know where i can find my diary and laptop, where the office is and where the fob to get me through the door is and how to use it etc etc.

Thought has no awareness but awareness knows the content of the thoughts/memories and can act based on a judgement of them based on past experience and the information in front of it.

Ooooh, this is testy!! Thanks for your patience and perseverance!!