nirguna

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

Exact point? Not possible. I just followed instruction and ended up with one hand in the air and other on the table. I don't think I remember the 'exact point' of choice. It just happened. At what point. I don't know.

Does this seem interesting to you? Where is the 'chooser'? Can one be found? Or is this how choices happen, with no-one actually choosing but where choices still happen?

I will give you an example: Today I was commuting on train, thinking of exercise you proposed, to go to nature and see if I can find boundary of me and my surrounding. So, on train, I noticed that, there is me and others. Little bit of investigation and experiment, I started to notice that, that is not only that. At the same time, the same situation can be experienced completely differently. I got reminded of me and thought being separated and not being able to find exactly what is this me to what thoughts happen. I carried same exercise to the point of asking, is there really me, as opposed to others. And then, the train was just moving, I was just aware of my breath, boundary of me and others were somehow dissolving. I was just that, what you may call awareness. It was not automatic. As if I was initiating this process. So it is kind of swinging between me controlling or initiating situation and having moment of just being awareness.

This is great investigation Nirguna.

But when I asked if 'you are awareness' I simply wanted to find out if that was your belief? Sometimes this belief can form a kind of subtle identification. A new idea of 'me' as 'awareness'.

To assist with your inquiry, would it be acceptable for us to swap to using the word 'noticing' in place of 'awareness', just for now? This word is very straightforward and it may help us to avoid some confusions. Would this be fair?


Is there a 'me' that 'does' noticing (of boundaries dissolving)? Or does this noticing simply happen?

Is there a 'self' that controls this noticing?

Perhaps the impression that 'I control' or 'I initiate' is coming from thought?


Regards,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

(N)Exact point? Not possible. I just followed instruction and ended up with one hand in the air and other on the table. I don't think I remember the 'exact point' of choice. It just happened. At what point. I don't know.

(J)Does this seem interesting to you? Where is the 'chooser'? Can one be found? Or is this how choices happen, with no-one actually choosing but where choices still happen?

It is interesting. The chooser is belief we take for granted. I do anyway. I still feel I have the choice. But can chooser be found, yes and no. Not as anything solid. More like a thought. A very well established assumed thought. It does not pass the investigation test. Like a bad habit. So, I agree now that choices happen somehow with assumed me.

Do you think it takes time for this habit to dissolve? Should this assumption of 'chooser' be watched.

To assist with your inquiry, would it be acceptable for us to swap to using the word 'noticing' in place of 'awareness', just for now? This word is very straightforward and it may help us to avoid some confusions. Would this be fair?

Word 'noticing' is fine.

Is there a 'me' that 'does' noticing (of boundaries dissolving)? Or does this noticing simply happen?

:) I like how you give me options. There is me that does investigation. As a result of investigation, boundaries begin to dissolve, and then, noticing simply happen...

Is there a 'self' that controls this noticing?

Self temporarily dissolve and there is no feeling of control.

Perhaps the impression that 'I control' or 'I initiate' is coming from thought?

Where else it can come from? :)

Thank you,

N

[JonathanR]

Hello Nirguna,

I still feel I have the choice. But can chooser be found, yes and no. Not as anything solid. More like a thought. A very well established assumed thought.

Is it anything more than that? A thought 'I choose'?

Do you think it takes time for this habit to dissolve? Should this assumption of 'chooser' be watched.

Yes, it may gradually dissolve. Can the thought 'I choose' be prevented from appearing? Maybe not, but the appearance of this sort of thought can now be seen for what it is. Each time there appears to be a 'chooser choosing' it can be seen again. It may not be necessary or desirable to constantly watch for this but noticing its appearance will happen anyway.

:) I like how you give me options. There is me that does investigation. As a result of investigation, boundaries begin to dissolve, and then, noticing simply happen...

Is there a 'me' that 'does' investigation? Where is it? What does this 'me' look like?, Is it possible to hear it, touch it? What is it?

Self temporarily dissolve and there is no feeling of control.

Temporarlily?

Has 'self' ever 'existed'? Other than as a thought 'me''?



regards,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

(N) I still feel I have the choice. But can chooser be found, yes and no. Not as anything solid. More like a thought. A very well established assumed thought.

(J) Is it anything more than that? A thought 'I choose'?

It is just a thought. Very frequent thought. It is recognized as what it is, a thought.

(N) There is me that does investigation. As a result of investigation, boundaries begin to dissolve, and then, noticing simply happen...

(J) Is there a 'me' that 'does' investigation? Where is it? What does this 'me' look like?, Is it possible to hear it, touch it? What is it?

Same answer. It is that same habit of taking this thought 'me' 'doing' things.

(N) Self temporarily dissolve and there is no feeling of control.

(J) Temporarily?

Yes, temporarily. That thought of me as a separate object is suspended temporarily. I say this because this is not my constant experience.

Has 'self' ever 'existed'? Other than as a thought 'me''?

I don't think so. It is a thought. That is clear.

Thank you,

N

[JonathanR]

(J) Is it anything more than that? A thought 'I choose'?


It is just a thought. Very frequent thought. It is recognized as what it is, a thought.

Good. How about 'decisions'? is there one that 'takes decisions', or are decisions happening without a someone, 'me', 'deciding'? Take a look at experience.

A train nees to be caught. At some stage catching train happens. Did someone 'decide' or did it simply flow this way with the added thought 'I decided'? See if you can find some examples of decicions and say how they work?

That thought of me as a separate object is suspended temporarily. I say this because this is not my constant experience.

Is there an expectation that this should be the constant experience?

Has 'self' ever 'existed'? Other than as a thought 'me''?


I don't think so. It is a thought. That is clear.

That's good.

Did you get an opportunity to go for a walk in nature yet?.


Best wishes,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

Good. How about 'decisions'? is there one that 'takes decisions', or are decisions happening without a someone, 'me', 'deciding'? Take a look at experience.

A train nees to be caught. At some stage catching train happens. Did someone 'decide' or did it simply flow this way with the added thought 'I decided'? See if you can find some examples of decicions and say how they work?

I feel both. I take decisions and decisions are just happening.

Looking at my experience:

A train needs to be caught. I have to think when is the train coming and how long will it take me to catch that train leaving my house, calculating possible walking time, from my house to train station. Taking into consideration that I have an injury which may take me more time than usual to get there on time. Thinking and calculating process is very necessary so that I don't miss the train and get stressed about getting late for work.

Looking back at those events. At some stage catching train happens. Somewhere decision making happened. At what point I don't know. The rest came naturaly, without my decision, whether train was on time, whether it was sunny warm day or cold rainy, whether I will find seat in the train or not, all this just happen, I have no deciding in the process of the events that follow.

(N) That thought of me as a separate object is suspended temporarily. I say this because this is not my constant experience.

(J) Is there an expectation that this should be the constant experience?

No it was nice experience while it lasted.

Did you get an opportunity to go for a walk in nature yet?.

No. Sorry. I have minor injury in my lower back and I am seeing chiropractor.
I am still working and if I have a day off I am trying to rest as much as possible.
I'm thinking of something smaller maybe in the meantime. Just going to the park nearby. Although, I love water, moving water, it would be very nice to go to nature and do the exercise you suggested.

Thank you.

N

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

No. Sorry. I have minor injury in my lower back and I am seeing chiropractor.
I am still working and if I have a day off I am trying to rest as much as possible.
I'm thinking of something smaller maybe in the meantime. Just going to the park nearby. Although, I love water, moving water, it would be very nice to go to nature and do the exercise you suggested.

Sorry to hear about your minor injury and hope it heals up soon.

No worries about not managing to get out for a walk. A park nearby will do, if there are trees, grass, and so on, whenever you are better.

i just need to ask you about this:

I feel both. I take decisions and decisions are just happening.

Looking at my experience:

A train needs to be caught. I have to think when is the train coming and how long will it take me to catch that train leaving my house, calculating possible walking time, from my house to train station. Taking into consideration that I have an injury which may take me more time than usual to get there on time. Thinking and calculating process is very necessary so that I don't miss the train and get stressed about getting late for work.

When you say 'I' have to think, 'I' have an injury' and so on, is there ever an actual separate 'self' doing any of this stuff?

Regards,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

When you say 'I' have to think, 'I' have an injury' and so on, is there ever an actual separate 'self' doing any of this stuff?

I agreed on honesty and I want to speak from the direct experience. Just the way it is. My understanding, my experience my doubts etc.

So this I, that have to think, have an injury, have understanding, experience, doubts and so on....is thought.
Useful for conversation and communication. But it is a thought. How I know this? Upon close investigation of who or what am I, there is nothing substantial that can be found, which makes me conclude that it is just a thought. Can it be anything else? I don't know.

I don't claim any realization here. I do exist as something. I think, I feel, I do things. But as what? I really don't know. Maybe that is what I am trying to find here. I say maybe, because I am not sure. Is there anything to find?

I do feel some kind of yearning for completion, desire to know Self, that is the driving force behind all this.

Thank you.

N

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

I don't claim any realization here. I do exist as something. I think, I feel, I do things. But as what? I really don't know. Maybe that is what I am trying to find here. I say maybe, because I am not sure. Is there anything to find?

Thank you. That is why in guiding we always recommend looking at experience, at the five senses of seeing, hearing, touch, taste, smell, to investigate if a 'self' appears to be making these happen, or if the sensations are happening TO someone, some entity, some 'contoller'? And we recommend looking at thoughts to see if 'I' is a case of thinking 'I'.

I do feel some kind of yearning for completion, desire to know Self, that is the driving force behind all this.

Perhaps this is what is left when the illusion of a separate self is seen through? Something like the felt presence of immediate experience but without name or label?

Without the identification with this idea of a separate 'me' perhaps the tyranny of believing 'I am this' or 'I am not this' is broken? Or at least there is now the opportunity to see through this illusory self at any time?

Do you feel you have seen through the illusion of a separate 'self'?

best wishes

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

Do you feel you have seen through the illusion of a separate 'self'?

I can not say anything for sure but I can describe you my experience and maybe you can see better where I am at in this, lets call it process. I went for a walk today in a nature not far from my house. I was just relaxed and tried the exercise you asked me to do. So what happened. There is usual stream of thoughts. For a moment I stopped and took a closer look at my experience. There was me, my presence. Light wind wind was moving grass and trees, touching my skin. Birds were singing. I was aware of my breath. Everything was moving, inside and outside, as if just one flow. There was no me as doer, controller.... I was present and things were happening. There was no desire to notice every little detail. Just relaxed letting go and acceptance of what is happening. I was there and I was not there at the same time. Some thought would come and go, like everything else, winds, birds. Similar to train experience, boundary between me and what was happening was somehow blurry...

I don't know how to answer honestly your question whether I have seen trough the illusion of a separate 'self'. Not sure if I understand this question correctly. My answer would be yes and no. It feels like that it depends on the focus. I can see and feel myself as separate individual body. But also upon close investigation nothing substantial can be found.

This is what is experienced and this is how I understand it.

Thank you.

N

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

Thank you for answering my question. I am glad you managed to get to the park and the whole experience of everything flowing.

I don't know how to answer honestly your question whether I have seen trough the illusion of a separate 'self'. Not sure if I understand this question correctly. My answer would be yes and no. It feels like that it depends on the focus. I can see and feel myself as separate individual body. But also upon close investigation nothing substantial can be found.

So let's look at this a little more. You have consistenly said that there are two things going on, that there is seeing and feeling of yoursef as separate individual body at the same time as nothing substantial can be found.

So what is the experience if you focus on your arm? Are 'you' in the arm? is there a sensation of 'arm' that is 'you'?

Close eyes and experience just the feeling of body. Any sensations that are felt. Fully experience this sensation of 'body' but with eyes closed. What is this sensation? Is there start or finish to it?

With eyes closed, what is 'the body'? What is experienced? Is something, a 'self' experiencing this?

The sensation is noticed. Is it 'you' that notices it? Is the noticing separate from the sensation? Is there a self experiencing either the sensation or the noticing of sensation? If so, where is that self?


Best,

Jon

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

So what is the experience if you focus on your arm? Are 'you' in the arm? is there a sensation of 'arm' that is 'you'?

There is just sensation of arm, with no reference to 'me'.

Close eyes and experience just the feeling of body. Any sensations that are felt. Fully experience this sensation of 'body' but with eyes closed. What is this sensation? Is there start or finish to it?

Just a sensation. There is no begining or end to it. Kind of space like experience.

With eyes closed, what is 'the body'? What is experienced? Is something, a 'self' experiencing this?

Same answer. Just a sensation. To say it is 'my' sensation would be just a thought, which has no substance.

The sensation is noticed. Is it 'you' that notices it? Is the noticing separate from the sensation? Is there a self experiencing either the sensation or the noticing of sensation? If so, where is that self?

It feels like sensation and noticing are same, one thing. Just a sensation and noticing. No reference to 'me' 'self' thought.

Thank you,

N

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

Great answers, thank you. You said:

There is just sensation of arm, with no reference to 'me'.

Just a sensation. There is no begining or end to it. Kind of space like experience.

Same answer. Just a sensation. To say it is 'my' sensation would be just a thought, which has no substance.

It feels like sensation and noticing are same, one thing. Just a sensation and noticing. No reference to 'me' 'self' thought.

Excellent. Very good.

So, what would be your answer if I ask the question:

'Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? If there is, what form does it take'?


All the best,

Jon.

[nirguna]

Hi Jon.

'Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? If there is, what form does it take'?

Self, me, I exist as a thought. Before it was more identified as my body. I still do that, as a habit, but now, that does not withstand investigation. So it still remains as a thought.

Thank you.

N

[JonathanR]

Hi Nirguna,

Self, me, I exist as a thought. Before it was more identified as my body. I still do that, as a habit, but now, that does not withstand investigation. So it still remains as a thought.

Good. So other than as the thought of 'me' or 'self', is there any actual separate entity, controller of experience? Look now to find out.

Except for thought of one, is there a 'self' here right now?

Before it was more identified as my body. I still do that, as a habit, but now, that does not withstand investigation.

Is there an 'I' that 'does' this identification?

Would you say that identifiction just happens and that it is thought that adds the announcement 'I identify'?

Best wishes,

Jon