The Gate

Hey Neroli,

Just wanted to say I think I can come up with something more workable than my last post, I'll check things out some more during the day and report hopefully tonight!
Best/
M

Hi Michael,

Being honest is certainly the way forwards :)

By all means, post your updated findings as you mentioned you had some to share...and we can take all the time in the world...time isn't even real, so we have as much of it as we like!

From your last post...there is a point worth looking into here...

the body feels, thinks and sees an external world

The body is sensing and experiencing, that is real and that is happening...you can see and experience this for yourself clearly right now....seeing these words, fingers typing on a keyboard, breathing in and feeling the air expand in your chest, sounds happening around you while you look at these words...all these are sense perceptions that are experienced by the body...but does the body think? Really, look closely and tell me if you can find where the body is thinking?

Just because the body is experiencing through the senses...does that mean there is a "you" in there, directing, controlling or in any way responsible for any of the what the body is experiencing?

xxn

Hi Neroli!
I have had a few interesting days with some ‘revelations’ and a falling back to storytelling and identification with it.
As the story goes, I was walking in the forest this weekend and I felt that I could not focus on anything in particular, as if the view from the body was countered by a sense of unity with the environment. A reorientation of sort that produced some sense of struggle, although happening by itself. Maybe the brain was rewiring?
To be honest, I haven’t really found an answer to whether the body experiences anything, including thoughts or if all this is thought assumption. At some point as I was tired of intellectualizations and ‘attempts to look’ I just relaxed into the sense of being, without definitions and that seemed to create more ease and an instinctive sense of unity. I don’t know if this is something you could vouch for, I didn’t mean to get into a meditative state of some sort, but it sure felt nice to just ‘be’.
Now it is back to dull, thoughts are weaving pretty bleak stories about me and my life etc., are surely not pleasant but are being questioned. Perhaps the most compelling story is the one that says to keep seeking, to try to understand and lift myself from the situation (by eg. seeing no self…). I fall for that hook line and sinker!
I hope you perceive some shreds of light from all this bunch of stories, I surely felt so some moments, but now it is again, well… dull. I am going to sleep over this, hope you had a good weekend!
Many thanks!
M

Hi Michael,

it sounds like you stopped identifying with thought during your experience in the walk in the forest and had a direct experience of life happening...can you see clearly from those 2 ways of experiencing life that they feel quite different?

If you're feeling intellectually exhausted by this process, it is because you are thinking about it instead of looking with direct experience. Thinking is exhausting and never ending. When you look with direct experience, you see there is nothing to see, and it feels very different to thinking.

It would be quite tacky to quote yoda here, but there is no "attempting to look" there is either looking with direct experience or there is thinking. That's all folks :)

I just relaxed into the sense of being,

Notice how you said you just relaxed into the sense of being...this is a useful way to look with direct experience, relax into it, just totally relax into looking at life with direct experience as it happens...the more you relax, the more you see clearly with direct experience...

I just relaxed into the sense of being, without definitions and that seemed to create more ease and an instinctive sense of unity.

Without definitions...so, thoughts were not labelling, thoughts were not defining your experience...you were just experiencing life as it happens.

A reorientation of sort that produced some sense of struggle, although happening by itself.

I've asked you the question related to a self being in control of life as it happens a few times in different forms and seeing this distinction is of real value in seeing no self...remember here that there is no self and never has been, so we're just playing a pretty funny game with all of this...

1. Is it possible that things are happening without any input from you/self? What can you distinguish in your life experience that is happening, with absolutely no control or input from "you".

2. For example, The body breathing and performing it's various functions, like digestion, sleeping, blinking, is that happening by itself or are you controlling it?

3. Is it possible thoughts are happening by themselves - without any control or input from you?

Just remember to r-e-e-e-e-e-l-a-a-a-a-a-x Michael :) It's really a good idea to just relax into all of it, makes the game a lot more enjoyable :) xn

Hello :)
I am back I am not sure I am ready to answer all the questions, but I wanted to keep this up (not that there’s really anything else that occupies my mind).

If you're feeling intellectually exhausted by this process, it is because you are thinking about it instead of looking with direct experience. Thinking is exhausting and never ending. When you look with direct experience, you see there is nothing to see, and it feels very different to thinking.

It would be quite tacky to quote yoda here, but there is no "attempting to look" there is either looking with direct experience or there is thinking. That's all folks :)

I am trying to relax into the seeing (boy that sounds contradictory).
When emotions don’t push ‘me’ around it’s ok. There is a sense of being absorbed into whatever is happening, like seeing stuff, body moving around, even thinking. Now, when thinking throws up an I, I’ve had a couple of times the thought “well, this is just another thought, there is nothing other than that” and later “can it be so simple?”.
Something else that hit me this morning was that without thought, there is really nothing to talk about, just the immediate experience. But how relaxed must the heart and mind must be to just let this be as it is. The temptation to go into thinking is super strong.

I've asked you the question related to a self being in control of life as it happens a few times in different forms and seeing this distinction is of real value in seeing no self...remember here that there is no self and never has been, so we're just playing a pretty funny game with all of this...

OK, I don’t feel I have investigated this enough so I’ll leave the questions for a part 2. Sorry for the past week I’ve been pretty much overtaken by thought, now I feel better.
Hugs,

Michael

Ha-ha-haaaaaaa!

Something else that hit me this morning was that without thought, there is really nothing to talk about, just the immediate experience.

Michael - yaaaaaaaaaaaaas!!!!

And...

“well, this is just another thought, there is nothing other than that” and later “can it be so simple?”.

YAAAAAAAASSSSS!!!

The temptation to go into thinking is super strong.

Next v important thing to note...this is just going to keep happening, you know...thinking, it won't stop, resistance is useless...but LOOKING at thoughts as they happen with direct experience is uber useful :)

Come back to these questions when you're ready...and please respond to each of them.

1. Is it possible that things are happening without any input from you/self? What can you distinguish in your life experience that is happening, with absolutely no control or input from "you".

2. For example, The body breathing and performing it's various functions, like digestion, sleeping, blinking, is that happening by itself or are you controlling it?

3. Is it possible thoughts are happening by themselves - without any control or input from you?

And keep relaxing into it :) xn

Hi Neroli!
I just wanted to let you know that I am onto the questions and will respond asap. In the meanwhile I’ll be in the UK for a couple of days of leisure so I might be offline for a while. I also plan to drop at a Tony Parsons’ meetings, he’s one of my golden oldies!
As an update I can mention that this morning, waking up from some weird dream, I had a clear hit that the me-character was made up.. I spent some few hours in that recognition but it seemed to fade (or to reassert itself) during the day.
I tried so far looking into doership with your questions but it didn’t seem to move me much. Like I can recognize that no I is needed to take any action but it was a bit intellectual.
Ok I’ve got an early flight to catch, so I better get some sleep.
Thank you so mucht! Best wishes, talk soon,

M

Hey michael :)

Sounds like you will be other wise engaged for a few days. I'll check in here for when you are back.

I'm also about to begin assisting on a 5 day silent meditation retreat - the whole gig ends in 7 days. I will still be checking on this thread though out as I've already cleared that as an ok to do during the retreat.

As an update I can mention that this morning, waking up from some weird dream, I had a clear hit that the me-character was made up.. I spent some few hours in that recognition but it seemed to fade (or to reassert itself) during the day.

This is useful to experience the feeling of the made up sense of "me or self"- It's also really useful to experience that it fades, as does every experience....no thought/no sense of separation etc. etc. All experiences come and go all the time, there's no need to try holding on to any particular state over any other state.

I don't know who Tony Parsons’ is but hope you have fun :)

Cheers, neroli

Thank you so much for taking the time during your retreat… you’re working your ass off with me and I feel bad to be so slow in answering!
Anyway, onto business.

Is it possible that things are happening without any input from you/self? What can you distinguish in your life experience that is happening, with absolutely no control or input from "you".

Ok to roll back for a sec, I noticed the mind coming back to old loops the last days, like trying to get something, mostly to get out of suffering. it was embarrassing as well as sobering to get clear again on the basics, that is we’re trying so see that ‘I’ don’t exist. Anyway, there’s some tendency to relapse back into that nonsense.
I’ve observed in several occasion what goes on without no control, and I found of course breathing, eye movements, body movements and digestion. Being aware was another process which is on by default.

Is it possible thoughts are happening by themselves - without any control or input from you?

Yes, it is. Not a clear cut answer though, as I am still a bit mesmerized by them when they start spinning stories. I noticed that there is no space between me and thoughts, ‘I’ am one with them and follow their script until somehow the flow gets interrupted by a wait-a-minute thought.
Hope the retreat is going well. All the best,
Michael

Hey Michael!

I've been so out of the loop! Back now! xxxn

I'll respond to this properly in the next few hours and send you a pm as well,

Cheers,
Neroli

Hi again Michael :)

I've been pretty immersed in the retreat space and just coming back to things in the rest of the world now, I will PM you about it.

Now, back to your thread!! I am sorry for leaving it so long to respond.

...that is we’re trying so see that ‘I’ don’t exist. Anyway, there’s some tendency to relapse back into that nonsense.

Just remember, we're not "trying" to do or see anything my dear M...we are just looking and seeing and that's it. And there's no nonsense to be worried about, it's all a great game to play with and have some fun :)

I’ve observed in several occasion what goes on without no control, and I found of course breathing, eye movements, body movements and digestion.

This is good, keep looking at the actions that are happening without any input or control from a "self" because we are going to go further down this rabbit hole. But for now, keep letting your attention rest on those things you mentioned, eye movements, breathing, digestion...how about swallowing? Blinking? are they happening without any control or input from a "self"

What kind of body movements do you see happening outside of "your" control - all of them? Or specific ones?

Being aware was another process which is on by default

Can you clarify this for me? Are you saying that awareness is just happening, there is no "you" controlling it or having any influence on it occurring?

Yes, it is...(re thoughts are happening by themselves)...I am still a bit mesmerized by them when they start spinning stories. I noticed that there is no space between me and thoughts,

I'll come back to this after we get through the other points :)

xxn

Dearest Neroli,

Hello again, it’s great to have you back! No worries at all I hope the retreat was good, I was also travelling the last days but now I am back home. So, I have been focusing on the body functions and movements, and I’ve seen little of a self making it all happen. I say that with a lil bit of caution as I don’t feel I’ve explored all the situations and ramifications of it but it sure seems like a pretty deep hole.

What kind of body movements do you see happening outside of "your" control - all of them? Or specific ones?

So far all of them. And I could add speaking (unfortunately sometimes), and labelling objects mentally, because I don’t know which label shows up until it does.

Being aware was another process which is on by default

Can you clarify this for me? Are you saying that awareness is just happening, there is no "you" controlling it or having any influence on it occurring?

Yes, that’s what I meant. I could speculate further on this but I think I am going to let you do the questioning and see where this goes.
Many thanks, hugs,
M

Hey MIchael!!!

We are back - properly now :) I PM-ed you again last night just in case you missed it...

so, let's go back to this game we're playing....you know you've shown me a few times that you've already got this at least in clear glimpses a number of times?

We are going to keep playing it for as long as you like...but the game is seeing that there is no self anywhere driving anything and it never there in the first place, AND you've seen this a number of times already - yay! But i get that the way the game feels, it doesn't feel like you're done until you're done...so. we'll keep playing along until you feel you have seen as clearly as the hands you are typing with in every aspect of Life, that there is no separate self.

The reason I can see that you have seen that there is no separate self a few times now is in your responses...

So far all of them. (referring to body movements happening with no "self" controlling or directing) And I could add speaking (unfortunately sometimes), and labelling objects mentally, because I don’t know which label shows up until it does. (referring to thoughts happening with no "self" controlling or directing)

And you followed up with confirming that that awareness is just happening, there is no "you" controlling it or having any influence on awareness occurring...

SO, can you see from your responses that when you do look at your direct experience, as it happens in the moment...there isn't a "separate self" controlling or directing?

Which begs the question...if there is no "self" directing or controlling thoughts or actions in the body in the present moment...then can there ever be a self directing or controlling anything ever? Let that sit with you for a while...just let it sink in and let yourself feel into the response.

Let me know if you are absolutely certain, and see clearly that there is no "separate self" driving "your" thoughts and actions...then let me know - how does it occur that a "separate self" exists in the first place then? Where does the concept of a "separate self" come from?

So great to be back to our thread - game on Michael :) xxn

Dearest N,
Hi, sorry for being away a while, I took a pause for reflection.

SO, can you see from your responses that when you do look at your direct experience, as it happens in the moment...there isn't a "separate self" controlling or directing?

Yup

Which begs the question...if there is no "self" directing or controlling thoughts or actions in the body in the present moment...then can there ever be a self directing or controlling anything ever? Let that sit with you for a while...just let it sink in and let yourself feel into the response

.
No, guess (!) not. I may need to build up the casuistry a bit more.

Let me know if you are absolutely certain, and see clearly that there is no "separate self" driving "your" thoughts and actions...then let me know - how does it occur that a "separate self" exists in the first place then? Where does the concept of a "separate self" come from?

Thoughts are structured in a way that makes it seem like there is a self, or thinker. If I am absolutely certain.. mmm not yet, but doubts are loosening up somehow.
I am usually quite clear in the morning, and then during the course of the day I tend to get mucked up in thoughts. Maybe a last residual doubt is some sense of separation between some kind of fulcrum or me and the thoughts that appear. That’s tight to the notion of the body as the experiencer, I believe. Still, I see that that’s more thought construct right now, because, as we’ve covered, the body Is also ‘experienced’. That stubborn commonsense view of things is still annoingly persistent.
I was wondering if you have any suggestions on these issues, I think I can tackle them but I’d definitely like to hear your take.
Much love,
M